EV ONLY MODE

[maby]

.... If they do this, the Mercedes will be in an even worse position with its claimed 20 mile EV range

You obviously still don't get it.

30 or 20 miles, it doesn't matter, as long as it is a real, pure EV mode, with no tailpipe exhaust.

It can be 200 miles range, but if the ICE will kick in occasionally, you will be banned form many cities,
not in London, but certainly many retirement closed communities in Florida and California,
with a strict ban on ICE vehicles whatsoever.

You will immediately say, it is hot there, but even on warm days ICE will kick in, if you press
the pedal too hard, and there should be a way to prevent it with a simple button.

That may well be so, in which case it is not the right car for those user groups. Range will be important for some - depending on the size of the environmentally controlled zone. 20 miles would just about be enough for a London driver if the controlled zone was something similar to the current congestion charging zone, but if it were extended out to the M25 ring (as the Low Emission Zone currently is), then 20 miles would not be enough to guarantee a full day of usage without the engine kicking in.

I understand that you are disappointed, but I really don't see anything in the behaviour of the car that is inconsistent with the marketing. In Europe, at least, manufacturers are constrained to quote the performance as measured on the official test track and I can well believe that the car does average 148mpg and 40 g/km. The European test regime was designed before hybrids came on the scene and is completely inappropriate for them - I would expect that it will be redesigned in the next few years and cars like the Outlander will lose their special status. The same is true of the other manufacturers - I was an early adopter of the Prius and drove round London with Congestion Charge exemption for years despite the fact that I seldom got better than 45mpg and there were little Renaults and Fords next to me at the lights who were paying the full congestion charge and doing less damage to the environment. TfL have now changed the rules and most Priuses have lost their exemption.

 

[anko]

..., but I really don't see anything in the behaviour of the car that is inconsistent with the marketing.

Again, although this may be true (I agree there may not be a solid reason to complain about it), it is not a reason for others not to want this feature. Or even to push for it.

I start to understand that some people don't care for this particular modification. Or that they, for whatever reason, believe that they are are not entitled to receive or even request this modification. What I don't understand is why people make an effort to find and share reasons, why they believe others should not be entitled to have (or even request) something, they themselves obviously don't care for. Unless they are secretly Mitsubishi and would end up paying for it ....

It is tough enough stand up to Mitsubishi, but if you also have to deal with fellow PHEV owners that apparently think in terms of "can't do" it doesn't become easier.

 

[maby]

..., but I really don't see anything in the behaviour of the car that is inconsistent with the marketing.

Again, although this may be true (I agree there may not be a solid reason to complain about it), it is not a reason for others not to want this feature. Or even to push for it.

I start to understand that some people don't care for this particular modification. Or that they, for whatever reason, believe that they are are not entitled to receive or even request this modification. What I don't understand is why people make an effort to find and share reasons, why they believe others should not be entitled to have (or even request) something, they themselves obviously don't care for. Unless they are secretly Mitsubishi and would end up paying for it ....

It is tough enough stand up to Mitsubishi, but if you also have to deal with fellow PHEV owners that apparently think in terms of "can't do" it doesn't become easier.

I don't have any problem with you trying - just can't support the indignation that it doesn't work the way you want already - by all means ask them to do it! It doesn't figure on my wish list and I wouldn't go out of my way to get it implemented - but it would have very little impact on my fuel consumption and I have no intention of driving in any area where it might be required in the foreseeable future.

 

[SMB]

I think this would be a great addition to the car, does anyone know if Mitsubishi monitor this board?

 

[anko]

Don't know if they do, but if they do, they must be laughing their socks off :lol:

 

[maby]

Don't know if they do, but if they do, they must be laughing their socks off :lol:

I'm not sure why they would be - I don't think anyone is saying "don't implement it" - there are several like yourselves who definitely want it and others like me who are indifferent towards it. Provided it is implemented as a configurable option that can be turned on or off, I'm perfectly happy for you to convince them to implement it. For me, the car behaves pretty much the way I would want it and I would be unhappy about this change being implemented unconditionally.

Out of interest, how would you anticipate selecting it? I guess that it might be possible to programme it up as a button on the MMCS display, but that is only available on GX4s. As someone suggested earlier, I suspect that the actual implementation is just a few lines of code to be changed in the engine management systems which would cost Mitsubishi very little - but they will not want to be recalling cars to fit extra physical buttons.

 

[anko]

[Out of interest, how would you anticipate selecting it?

Just tried to be funny ;-)

IMHO, most obvious would be: associated it with the ECO button (and of course, make the ECO button sticky :idea: ). Drive off in ECO mode. If you think it takes to long for the cabin to warm up or you have a long trip where it is more efficient to burn fuel for heating, switch off ECO.

The throttle will be more responsive, but you are on top of that. The heater will be more assertive, but it is going to be switched off soon anyway, as the engine will provide necessary heat.

Do you see any problems with using the ECO button?

 

[jaapv]

The thing doesn't do much anyway...

 

[maby]

I would be comfortable with the Eco button - as jaapv says, the current effect is pretty limited. Possibly the Eco and Save buttons should be configured to interact so that Eco on its own implements a Pure EV mode with restrained acceleration and heating while Eco plus Save gives us power savings equivalent to the current Eco mode but does not try to force the petrol engine off.

 

[anko]

I would be comfortable with the Eco button - as jaapv says, the current effect is pretty limited. Possibly the Eco and Save buttons should be configured to interact so that Eco on its own implements a Pure EV mode with restrained acceleration and heating while Eco plus Save gives us power savings equivalent to the current Eco mode but does not try to force the petrol engine off.

Would you be willing to drive around in Save mode all the time? That means that even once the cabin is heated, you will not be using up SOC, unless you deselect it.

 

[morrisonhiker]

It will be very difficult for automated roadside detection equipment to identify PHEVs not running EV with sufficient certainty to support a prosecution.

Actually, the technology already exists and is already being used for slightly different purposes. In many metro areas in the United State, emissions tests are required for vehicles. Some areas, such as the Denver metro area, allow you to skip getting an emissions test if you drive by one of the emissions test vans (RapidScreen) twice within a certain timeframe. The test vans are located at various locations throughout the city and the locations change from day to day. They use lasers to measure vehicle emissions produced by each vehicle as it passes. In addition to the laser, a camera records the license plate of the vehicle.

Such test stations could be set up randomly throughout London or other cities with EV zones. Obviously, a vehicle running in electric mode wouldn't be spewing gases out of the tailpipe while cars running in ICE mode would. While this system wouldn't ensure the driver is using EV or ICE mode constantly, it could still be used to encourage compliance.

For a reference on how it's done in Colorado: http://aircarecolorado.com/rapidscreen/how-i/

 

[greendwarf]

This is all rather another "Gx4 problem" but I think posters are missing a point. Unlike Honda, Toyota & Nissan, Mitsubishi is primarily a Far East manufacturer with overseas joint ventures. As a result their cars are designed for their home market - again unlike the "European" models developed in the UK by their rivals.

As anyone who has been there will confirm, other than superficially, there is a big gulf between Japanese culture and ours in the West. So basically, we are being offered a Japanese car designed for the Japanese market. It is, therefore, unsurprising that we find some of the features not to our taste. Also there will be a lack of recognition AND lack of incentive to change things just for us - although the US market may be another matter.

It is interesting, that as part of the Focus Group exercise I was involved in last week, Mitsu are also visiting owners in their homes "to understand how the English live". :shock:

 

[SMB]

It is interesting, that as part of the Focus Group exercise I was involved in last week, Mitsu are also visiting owners in their homes "to understand how the English live". :shock:

Jeez, they better not come to me or they might be in for a shock!

 

[maby]

I would be comfortable with the Eco button - as jaapv says, the current effect is pretty limited. Possibly the Eco and Save buttons should be configured to interact so that Eco on its own implements a Pure EV mode with restrained acceleration and heating while Eco plus Save gives us power savings equivalent to the current Eco mode but does not try to force the petrol engine off.

Would you be willing to drive around in Save mode all the time? That means that even once the cabin is heated, you will not be using up SOC, unless you deselect it.

I do drive in save mode most of the time. Following a charge, I let the battery discharge to something like 75% then run in save till I'm about 20 miles from my next charge.

 

[Kim]

Hello Forum

This is my first posting and my Outlander PHEV is still 4 weeks away from delivery.

Still I might be able to add some valuable facts to this discussion, as I was envolved with dealing and handling Lithium batterys for 10 years.

So why can't we use the vehicle in a pure EV mode?
Well, we CAN, but only within the specs the small 12kWh battery pack can operate.
All batteries can only deliver a certain amount of power in relation to it's capacity. In our case that usually is in the range of 2-3 times* of its capacity in kW for constant,
and a max. of let's say 5-6 times* of its capacity in kW for a short burst.
That's why a Model S60 cannot deliver the same BHP as the Model S85: smaller battery, less kW without causing damage.**

So from a 12 kWh battery you can draw NO MORE than let's say aprox. 70-80 kW for a very short time (15-20 seconds), from then on the power needs to be reduced back to an even safer level like 40 kW.
That's all a Lithium car battery can handle. Hobby batteries can do more, but have a way worse weight/energy density that would probably double the battery weight in the Outlander.

From here on you can do your own math why the ICE has to kick in in your specific cases:
- to support the heater, because it takes 5 kW away from the low safe power output of the small battery
- to deliver the missing kW to the electric drive train during heavy accel. or steep hills (consumption of the two motors can be up to 120 kW, right? The battery CANNOT deliver that.)
- ...
- ...

I hope that isn't too confusing or has been layed out to extend somewhere else before.

Please feel free to correct my English, for I'm from Switzerland and always willing to learn


* varies and depends on the battery chem used
** Picture this: a petrol tank doesn't care if it is emptied or refueled within a few minutes, but a battery needs a certain time to unload its energy, like it needs much more time to refill

 

[PolishPilot]

Kim, very good explanation.

Nevertheless, I do 80% of my driving below 10 miles in 50 km/h (30mph)
urban, flat environment. I would be pretty happy with 40-60 kW.
I don't need more. If I would need it, I would just turn off the EV mode.

Mitsubishi, please, please, give me the freedom of choice!!

 

[Kim]

Kim, very good explanation.

Thanks, PIC

Nevertheless, I do 80% of my driving below 10 miles in 50 km/h (30mph)
urban, flat environment. I would be pretty happy with 40-60 kW.

That isn't just a comfort-problem but it's a safety concern that Mitsubishi wouldn't be willing to fight over in a court of law.

Think about it that way: You'd be driving a 2 ton car, limited to 50-70 BHP!
I could think of dozends of scenarios where that could go very wrong...

The main point of my post was to show, that the limiting factor isn't the capacity/range but the capacity/power factor of the battery (the so called C-factor)


P.s.: and let's not forget about the temperature: the best batt. specs can only be achieved at around 40°C;
at 0° they are way worse and less and less current can be drawn from the batt. the lower the temerature is.
Is the battery pack heated and cooled, by the way?

 

[anko]

Thanks for sharing your insights. As far is I can judge, all very likely and true. But IMHO no the reason for the ICE to kick in.

This morning, I've driven approx. 24 km pure EV with the heater (set to 20 deg C) almost constantly drawing power from the battery, at times at max capacity (> 4,5 kW). Apparently, 'they' are not worried about that, as the engine didn't fire during that trip. Only if the heater is not preheated, the car will start the engine. Even though the kW load on the battery caused by the heater will not be higher, as max capacity is max capacity. Also, when the ICE is forced on, it is forced on immediately, even before taking off when there is no other load on the battery yet.

What can be noticed is that, during 'heavy' acceleration with the heater on, the ICE will kick in earlier, than it would with the heater off. Because indeed, the system does not allow to exceed 60 kW output. But with a somewhat adapted driving style, this can easily be prevented.

 

[Kim]

Very true and doesn't collide with my thoughts.
You show the way how the PHEV can be driven as an EV without expecting Mitsubishi to throw a minimum safety factor over board.

The when and how the ICE kicks in for the support of extra heat, extra power or extra charge for you and/or the battery pack (if it is heated also)
seems to me, to be a fine tuned orchestration between comfort and minimizing wear and tear of both the ICE and drive battery.

 

[anko]

Agreed. But the point is: it can only be done when the car is properly pre-heated. And people want to be able to drive it this way even when they didn't have the chance to pre-heat. And that is not possible. The question remains: why is this not possible? Or: what stops Mitsubishi from making it possible?

I don't think it has to due with limitations caused by the C factor of the battery.