EV ONLY MODE

[Kim]

I don't think it has to due with limitations caused by the C factor of the battery.

No, that's part of the fine tuning between comfort and minimizing wear and tear Mitsubishi choose.
After all, they have to stand up to the 3, 5 or 7 years warranty they grant

 

[anko]

I don't think it has to due with limitations caused by the C factor of the battery.

No, that's part of the fine tuning between comfort and minimizing wear and tear Mitsubishi choose.
After all, they have to stand up to the 3, 5 or 7 years warranty they grant

Wear and tear on the battery is excluded from warranty :|

As far as I know (I was informed about this by the Dutch distributor), it has purely to do with comfort. They have decided it takes 'uncomfortably long' for the cabin to be heat up using just the electric heater (if not pre-heated) and therefor they force the ICE to run.

 

[pkulak]

Eh, people are complaining, but it's all tradeoffs. Mitsubishi went with a 12-kWh battery to keep the cost down and avoid any intrusion on interior space. That battery can't supply all the power needed by the motors, so the engine has to kick in sometimes.

The alternative is to go with, say, 16kWh of battery. But then it adds a couple grand to MSRP (bigger battery and bigger inverter) and possibly intrudes on interior space a bit. Or they could have gone the other way, like the plug-in Prius, which turns the engine on for all but the slowest acceleration and has a miserably small battery. People plug those things in 4 times a day and all it gets them is a dozen MPG more than a standard Prius. I think they made a good call. If you never want the engine to come on, the Model X should be out soon.

 

[anko]

Eh, people are complaining, but it's all tradeoffs. Mitsubishi went with a 12-kWh battery to keep the cost down and avoid any intrusion on interior space.

Scenario: My battery is fully charge and the car disconnected from the charge station. Now I can electrically pre-heat the car for 15 minutes, then drive 10 - 15 miles and have some SOC left to play with when I arrive, without the engine ever being started. But when I start driving to soon (switch from pre-heating to heating to soon) then engine will be started. Even though the total amount of energy needed when I depart quickly is less, because I arrive at my destination earlier, and therefor the heater can be switched off earlier.

Please, explain to me what battery size has to do with that

What is the trade off? What would be lost if we had the possibility to choose between ICE or E heating? For sure, heating by means of the engine will be faster than heating by means of the electric heater. Sometimes I care. Especially when I know my EV range will fall short anyway. And sometimes I don't care. Especially on these very fuel-inefficient short trips.

 

[Kim]

We can provide the information, but we cannot make you understand it.

 

[anko]

We can provide the information, but we cannot make you understand it.

Hmmmm, I thought it was the other way around :lol:

But I'll give you a chance: Please tell me how limited battery size can explain the scenario I provided in my previous post (because nobody has done that, so far) and I'll try to understand it. If you cannot link the scenario to battery size, then explain what would be lost if Mitsubishi allowed us to not use the engine for heating, and what trade off was made.

 

[Kim]

They designed, manufactured and programmed a pretty awsome car, but of course in terms they think it's the best.
By that I mean they have their list of Top Ten in a particular order what's important in their agenda, which could look like this:
1. Safety
2. Performance
3. Comfort
4. Efficiancy
5. Reliability
6. Endurance
7. Prestigue
8. ---
9. ---
and so forth
They fine tune these factors to their order of importance,
and would need 10.000 programers all over the world to fine tune it to each individual customer without sacrifying safety, Performance and warranty. (I read, that there IS of course a warranty on the drive battery. Are there some countries where it isn't??)

I feel, this is completely offtopic, sorry, I think we all understood by now why the battery kW (not kWh) is the limiting factor for a pure BEV, and not the heater.

 

[PHEV2014]

Where did you find the C-rate from the battery?

Think about it that way: You'd be driving a 2 ton car, limited to 50-70 BHP!
I could think of dozends of scenarios where that could go very wrong...

You do not need that much power to maintain a certain speed. So what's wrong with 60kW? Both e-motors combined are limited to 60-70kW anyway. So please elaborate.

 

[Kim]

What's wrong, if you calculate this way, is that you will serverely damage a 12kWh batterie in less than a minute if you'd put a constant drain of 60kW on it.

Even Teslas Model S (Panasonics)NCR18650B cells, which have the reputation to may be the best cells on the market yet, cannot handle a load of higher than 2-3 C for an unlimitet time. None the less 6 C.

http://www.shoptronica.com/files/Panasonic-NCR18650.pdf


Sure, like I said, Lithium batteries used in RC Hobbies can deliver a much, much higher output of typically 20-40 C, but they have two times the weight per Watt and they never live a lot longer than 100 charging cycles.

 

[Kim]

I shouldn't have tried to explain such a complicated matter like batterie specs in a foreign language.

But it seemed to me, that the theories developed in this thread were leading a wrong way.

Sorry if I caused to much confusion, apologies, I won't try that again...

 

[anko]

They designed, manufactured and programmed a pretty awsome car, but of course in terms they think it's the best.
By that I mean they have their list of Top Ten in a particular order what's important in their agenda, which could look like this:
1. Safety
....
9. ---
and so forth
They fine tune these factors to their order of importance,
and would need 10.000 programers all over the world to fine tune it to each individual customer without sacrifying safety, Performance and warranty. (I read, that there IS of course a warranty on the drive battery. Are there some countries where it isn't??)

I feel, this is completely offtopic, sorry, I think we all understood by now why the battery kW (not kWh) is the limiting factor for a pure BEV, and not the heater.

I still don't understand. An my guess is, many do not.

Sorry to say, but your answer is totally failing to explain my scenario. It doesn't even try. It is just some marketing lingo. You say you have given all the information and it is up to me to understand it. Well, you haven't.

BTW: I didn't say there is no warranty on the battery. I said wear and tear is not covered by the battery.

 

[anko]

... is that you will serverely damage a 12kWh batterie in less than a minute if ...

..., cannot handle a load of higher than 2-3 C for an unlimitet time.

you give yourself quite some room to play, I mean "less than a limit" versus "unlimited time". Which is it?

For sure, batteries have their limitations. Nobody denies that. But still, it does not explain why the heater can run from the battery with the ignition off, but cannot run from the battery with the ignition on. And also it does not explain why the heater can draw 4.5 kW from the battery while driving, if it was properly preheated, and it cannot if it was not pre-heated.

You say you won't try anymore. With all due respect, I truly think it is you who is on the wrong track.

 

[maby]

I shouldn't have tried to explain such a complicated matter like batterie specs in a foreign language.

But it seemed to me, that the theories developed in this thread were leading a wrong way.

Sorry if I caused to much confusion, apologies, I won't try that again...

Don't apologise - your contributions are relevant and plausible. I don't have the detailed knowledge of modern battery technology to know if you are correct, but I certainly would not dismiss your arguments.

 

[user 422]

This thread seems to be totally irrelevant - everyone is ignoring the fact that this is a HYBRID and not a BEV or extended range vehicle - it was never designed or marketed as an EV only car...
All this arguing about whether the ICE should or should not start just goes to show that buyers see what they want to see when looking for a car and generally buy for mostly the wrong reasons or lack of research....
Move on guys !!!! - none of you are employed by MMC so you are only guessing at the design concepts underlying this car so your points are meaningless unless you back it up with communications directly from MMC...

I think this forum is becoming a waste of time ! Certainly reading this thread is!

 

[Bilbo59]

It is actually marketed as being capable of EV ONLY. Hence why many people bought it.

From the UK Mitsubishi Web Site
"Capable of 32.5 miles in EV mode, the average commute can be driven solely on electricity reducing the cost on you and the environment."

Note the word "solely"

It doesn't mention that if it is below +7c you have to freeze to achieve this. Nor does it say you have to pre-heat the car to achieve it.

 

[anko]

This thread seems to be totally irrelevant - everyone is ignoring the fact that this is a HYBRID and not a BEV or extended range vehicle - it was never designed or marketed as an EV only car...
All this arguing about whether the ICE should or should not start just goes to show that buyers see what they want to see when looking for a car and generally buy for mostly the wrong reasons or lack of research....
Move on guys !!!! - none of you are employed by MMC so you are only guessing at the design concepts underlying this car so your points are meaningless unless you back it up with communications directly from MMC...

I think this forum is becoming a waste of time ! Certainly reading this thread is!

Nobody is asking for pure EV. People are asking for as-EV-as-possible. And what is wrong with that, as long as nobody can explain why we cannot have that?

If this thread is irrelevant to you, instead of claiming that is in irrelevant to everybody, why don't you simply ignore it? So, indeed ... move on :lol:

 

[maby]

It is actually marketed as being capable of EV ONLY. Hence why many people bought it.

From the UK Mitsubishi Web Site
"Capable of 32.5 miles in EV mode, the average commute can be driven solely on electricity reducing the cost on you and the environment."

Note the word "solely"

It doesn't mention that if it is below +7c you have to freeze to achieve this. Nor does it say you have to pre-heat the car to achieve it.

But also note the word "capable" - not "always will" - the car is demonstrably capable of doing 30 miles on EV (not so sure about 32.5) - under the right circumstances. I'm a salesman - we love words like "capable" - they leave a great deal of wriggle-room!

 

[Ozukus]

You honestly telling me that you bought the car based on that sole piece of information and that your taking a piece of marketing communication as gospel.

Technically it's true, in Summer when no heating is required you will be able to get 32 EV miles.

Just like MPG figures for all cars, if you believe them, you will be sorely disappointed.

I sort of back dgmulti, you guys are spending a lot of effort discussing something that the car wasn't really designed to do in the current seasonal conditions here in Europe. Had you all bought the car in Summer I doubt this thread would even exist.

 

[PolishPilot]

It is actually marketed as being capable of EV ONLY. Hence why many people bought it.

From the UK Mitsubishi Web Site
"Capable of 32.5 miles in EV mode, the average commute can be driven solely on electricity reducing the cost on you and the environment."

Note the word "solely"

It doesn't mention that if it is below +7c you have to freeze to achieve this. Nor does it say you have to pre-heat the car to achieve it.

But also note the word "capable" - not "always will" - the car is demonstrably capable of doing 30 miles on EV (not so sure about 32.5) - under the right circumstances. I'm a salesman - we love words like "capable" - they leave a great deal of wriggle-room!

Reading with understanding:

Capable refers to: "Capable of 32.5 miles in EV mode",

but can and solely refers to:

the average commute can be driven solely on electricity reducing the cost on you and the environment.

Based on which promise I purchased the car.

 

[maby]

Caveat emptor, as they say! I don't speak Polish, so don't know what you were explicitly offered but, wearing my English salesman hat, I would feel pretty safe arguing in court that there is sufficient conditionality in "can" to cover the way an Outlander behaves. Saying that it "can drive the average commute entirely on EV" doesn't mean that it always will - if, as is the case, it demonstrably does it seven or eight months of the year, I think I could win the case in court.