EV ONLY MODE

[Bilbo59]

You honestly telling me that you bought the car based on that sole piece of information and that your taking a piece of marketing communication as gospel.

Technically it's true, in Summer when no heating is required you will be able to get 32 EV miles.

Just like MPG figures for all cars, if you believe them, you will be sorely disappointed.

I sort of back dgmulti, you guys are spending a lot of effort discussing something that the car wasn't really designed to do in the current seasonal conditions here in Europe. Had you all bought the car in Summer I doubt this thread would even exist.

Of course I didn't buy it solely on that information. I used appropriate criteria based on costs/tax/capabilities etc. But short EV only trips were a big attraction as much of my travel is local.

My point was that Mitsubishi are marketing the car as "capable" (having the ability, fitness, or quality necessary to do or achieve a specified thing) of doing 32 miles on EV alone - note - NO caveats that it doesn't apply to winter in the north of the UK!!!

The car wasn't designed to have more than 10 minute pre-heats either but was changed, presumably, on customer feedback. The original Audi TT wasn't designed to go off the road in fast corners either but was redesigned when it did! The list is endless of designs being adapted (Elk Test - Mercedes!!)

If you don't like this thread by all means feel free not to read it - some people do - and that is the whole point of different topics on a forum.

 

[Bilbo59]

Caveat emptor, as they say! I don't speak Polish, so don't know what you were explicitly offered but, wearing my English salesman hat, I would feel pretty safe arguing in court that there is sufficient conditionality in "can" to cover the way an Outlander behaves. Saying that it "can drive the average commute entirely on EV" doesn't mean that it always will - if, as is the case, it demonstrably does it seven or eight months of the year, I think I could win the case in court.

Would love to back the opposing lawyer on that one Maby - I doubt if you you find it that easy.

Can - to be able to do, make, or accomplish

 

[PolishPilot]

Kim,

assuming ignorance on the side of the proponents of pure electric mode is a little exaggerated.

In earlier discussions it has been documented that the battery has 12kWh capacity and 60kW available power.
(We do understand the difference between kWh and kW, I can assure you.)
For the values, see the documentation here:
http://www.mitsubishi-outlander-phev.com/Documents/EN/01.Outlander%20PHEV_E.pdf

In the table on page 5 there is "pure EV mode" listed as an option with the available power of "up to 60kW".

So, the battery is capable of C5, as per description.

Even with heater running at full power of 4.5kW, there should be 55kW left for the motors.
When you switch to the energy flow display, you can clearly see, when you exceed 60kW power
consumption of the motors, because the middle energy flow dial turns red.
I can assure you, I have seen this red display in 8000km and 5 months driving history of my PHEV only few times.
So, there is clearly no significant justification, at least for my driving habits and pattern to have more power
available than 60 kW.

Therefore, again, I do not understand, why, per software, there is no "limited performance pure electric mode"
available as user selectable option, with power to the motors coming from the battery alone, limited to 60kW.

Obviously such mode is there, it is described and documented, this is just some not understandable idea on the side
of the software and system designer, not to make this option "user selectable".

Just my 0.02$ worth, and chiming out...

PS: I kann au Schwitzerdutsch, falls Sie Sich in dieser Sprache besser ausdrücken können.

 

[maby]

Caveat emptor, as they say! I don't speak Polish, so don't know what you were explicitly offered but, wearing my English salesman hat, I would feel pretty safe arguing in court that there is sufficient conditionality in "can" to cover the way an Outlander behaves. Saying that it "can drive the average commute entirely on EV" doesn't mean that it always will - if, as is the case, it demonstrably does it seven or eight months of the year, I think I could win the case in court.

Would love to back the opposing lawyer on that one Maby - I doubt if you you find it that easy.

Can - to be able to do, make, or accomplish

Ah, but there's that word "able"! in contractual terms, there's a world of difference between "can" and "will" - we use "can" as often as we can - we only "will" when we can't get away with "can"!

"Will" is a commitment, "can" is an ability - the difference is enormous in legal disputes!

 

[PolishPilot]

Caveat emptor, as they say! I don't speak Polish, so don't know what you were explicitly offered but, wearing my English salesman hat, I would feel pretty safe arguing in court that there is sufficient conditionality in "can" to cover the way an Outlander behaves. Saying that it "can drive the average commute entirely on EV" doesn't mean that it always will - if, as is the case, it demonstrably does it seven or eight months of the year, I think I could win the case in court.

I do speak English, German, Polish and I understand Latin.
(I have actually a PhD of a German University.)

I was reading English, German and Polish web pages and brochures on the Outlander PHEV for over 2 years
before deciding to buy. I can assure you, on all of them the sentence and claim was the same:

"can drive the average commute entirely on EV"

I was aware, the 32 miles range is subject to temperature, driving style and conditions, but knowing that
my usual "commute" is 10-20 miles, I was pretty satisfied with that.

I was, unfortunately, not following the user forums, most of them were in Dutch.

I was never thinking, that as an environmentally aware person I will be heating my feet in winter with gasoline.

 

[maby]

Caveat emptor, as they say! I don't speak Polish, so don't know what you were explicitly offered but, wearing my English salesman hat, I would feel pretty safe arguing in court that there is sufficient conditionality in "can" to cover the way an Outlander behaves. Saying that it "can drive the average commute entirely on EV" doesn't mean that it always will - if, as is the case, it demonstrably does it seven or eight months of the year, I think I could win the case in court.

I do speak English, German, Polish and I understand Latin.
(I have actually a PhD of a German University.)

I was reading English, German and Polish web pages and brochures on the Outlander PHEV for over 2 years
before deciding to buy. I can assure you, on all of them the sentence and claim was the same:

"can drive the average commute entirely on EV"

I was aware, the 32 miles range is subject to temperature, driving style and conditions, but knowing that
my usual "commute" is 10-20 miles, I was pretty satisfied with that.

I was, unfortunately, not following the user forums, most of them were in Dutch.

I was never thinking, that as an environmentally aware person I will be heating my feet in winter with gasoline.

You clearly speak English very well - far better than my Polish!

But the fact remains that there is sufficient conditionality in "can drive the average commute entirely on EV" to get them off any legal hook given decent council and a following wind... Sorry!

 

[PolishPilot]

....

"Will" is a commitment, "can" is an ability - the difference is enormous in legal disputes!

And this is (probably) why Outlander PHEV failed to comply on the US market, especially California.

They very precisely define what Zero Emission Vehicle is (ZEV). Such vehicle is defined as a vehicle
that "will" not be emitting tail-pipe CO2 and other gases, not "can".
The ZEV ability is connected with vast tax exemptions and subsidies, not only on the side of buyer,
but also manufacturer. Tesla is earning lots of money by selling their "ZEV credits" to other manufacturers,
alone in 2014 they cashed in $72 million.

The Outlander PHEV, in her present configuration "can" be ZEV, but cannot be switched to a mode
when it "will" be a ZEV. As simple as that.

And I am pretty sure, in spite of your neglecting the need for such mode, the MMC engineers
are working hard to implement this option. And I do hope and believe, it will be implemented
this year into the US version, and I do hope and believe, it will be made available for us as an upgrade.

 

[anko]

What I still don't understand is why whether or not we can have discussion would depend on Mitsubishi marketing. It is not about law or marketing. It is about technology. Are you guys not all curious, with respect to how and why things work? Totally regardless of whether you can fix tor not? I find it very frustrating that people that don't care tell the people that do care, that they should not care.

The desire to have an EV only mode (whether it is EV driving or EV heating) is totally valid and understandable. Regardless of what it says in the brochures. People may have decided to buy the car, even knowing that this is how it functions (when I bought it back in December 2012, for sure it was not known, but that was a risk I have taken) . Does that mean they cannot have a discussion on the why behind I don't see why it cannot be discussed without people telling them that discussion is meaningless.

Whether one should complain or not, well then it comes to legal and marketing crap. But I would hope we are way above that.

 

[anko]

[And I am pretty sure, in spite of your neglecting the need for such mode, the MMC engineers
are working hard to implement this option. And I do hope and believe, it will be implemented
this year into the US version, and I do hope and believe, it will be made available for us as an upgrade.

I was told by Mitsubishi in the Netherlands that Japan is considering such an enhancement ... but only for future models. That would be a huge disappointment. Unless they can explain why such an enhancement could not be retrofitted to my unit. One problem I can see is that ZEV would require a "EV only driving" mode, which might have much more impact than an "EV only heating mode". Perhaps even a hardware impact. And then retrofitting would be much more costly than when it it was software only.

 

[maby]

[And I am pretty sure, in spite of your neglecting the need for such mode, the MMC engineers
are working hard to implement this option. And I do hope and believe, it will be implemented
this year into the US version, and I do hope and believe, it will be made available for us as an upgrade.

I was told by Mitsubishi in the Netherlands that Japan is considering such an enhancement ... but only for future models. That would be a huge disappointment. Unless they can explain why such an enhancement could not be retrofitted to my unit. One problem I can see is that ZEV would require a "EV only driving" mode, which might have much more impact than an "EV only heating mode". Perhaps even a hardware impact. And then retrofitting would be much more costly than when it it was software only.

My guess is that they will also be looking at significantly increasing the battery capacity in anticipation of changes in legislation. Implementing a "guaranteed EV" mode on a car that can have an EV range of less than 15 miles depending on driving conditions is a recipe for problems. If someone is using it in a ZEV zone and runs their battery flat, what are they going to do? Call a tow truck, or turn on the petrol engine? To be a realistic option as a ZEV vehicle, it needs to be able to do a normal day's use on its battery under any likely driving conditions. I live just outside the London Low Emissions Zone - if TfL took it into its head to make that a ZEV zone, the range of the Outlander with its current battery would not get me from one side to the other with any certainty.

 

[anko]

Exactly. And this is why I have stressed the importance of distinguishing between EV only heating and EV only driving on several occasions (e.g. the Top 3 discussion) . If you ask for EV only, with EV only heating in mind, it could be denied because they think you meant EV only driving. And to be honest, expecting EV only driving to be added to existing cars is in my opinion not realistic at all, if that indeed means a bigger battery. Unless a battery upgrade becomes available and you are willing to pay for it.

 

[maby]

while we are discussing legal hypotheticals, how about this scenario...

I assume that petrol powered generators will still be allowed in ZEV zones - for things like building sites and domestic power backup. If that is the case, it would be difficult for them to outlaw me plugging up a 5kW Honda generator to my Tesla to recharge it while I was at work. If I can get away with that, what is the difference with me parking up my Outlander and turning on Charge mode? The engine is not moving the car, it is charging a battery (which will subsequently be used to move the car)...

 

[anko]

Perhaps we should have two threads. This one, in "Outlander PHEV Forum Home » Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Owners Forum » Technical Discussions" discussing how we can or why we cannot have EV only modes, from a technical perspective. And one in some another section where we can discuss why we should or should no have them, from a legal / marketing perspective?

If I didn't know any better, I would almost think somebody was telling me I should not have the ambition to get an EV only mode, because it is legal to operate a construction machine in a ZEV zone :lol:

 

[maby]

Perhaps we should have two threads. This one, in "Outlander PHEV Forum Home » Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Owners Forum » Technical Discussions" discussing how we can or why we cannot have EV only modes, from a technical perspective. And one in some another section where we can discuss why we should or should no have them, from a legal / marketing perspective?

If I didn't know any better, I would almost think somebody was telling me I should not have the ambition to get an EV only mode, because it is legal to operate a construction machine in a ZEV zone :lol:

Just pointing out some of the potential ambiguities. PHEVs with small batteries really just move the environmental impact around rather than removing it - I sometimes commute into London to our office which is in the London Congestion Charge area - if they turned that into a Zero Emissions Zone, I would have to drive on save for the first 20 miles of my journey, thus exporting my pollution from London to Hertfordshire!

 

[Kim]

And this is (probably) why Outlander PHEV failed to comply on the US market, especially California.

Mitsubishi actually thinks it's the design/appearance.
Therefor the US market is the main reason for the mayor facelift of the 2016 model.
To bad that Mitsubishi is willing to sacrifice the good looks of a car for one other countries taste.
But understandable, of course. They wanna make money, not Art.

Who else agrees, that this turned out for the worse??

 

[morrisonhiker]

And this is (probably) why Outlander PHEV failed to comply on the US market, especially California.

Who else agrees, that this turned out for the worse??

Actually, I prefer the 2016 styling compared to the current style. Then again, I preferred the 2012 styling to the current style as well. Oh, I am located in the US, FWIW.

Also, the reason it was delayed in the US (most recently) was because it didn't have sufficient (degraded) battery monitoring and CARB believed the degraded battery would lead to more emissions: http://insideevs.com/california-delays-mitsubishi-outlander-phevs-us-debut/.

Mitsubishi could've still released the car in the US but decided to just wait and release the facelifted version with additional features instead.

 

[puckernutter]

I like the new design a lot better. except for the big black chunk of plastic below the grille. But I guess it will be covered by licence plate and any possible extra light bars anyway. Would still prefer it the same colour as the rest of the front.

 

[morrisonhiker]

I like the new design a lot better. except for the big black chunk of plastic below the grille. But I guess it will be covered by licence plate and any possible extra light bars anyway. Would still prefer it the same colour as the rest of the front.

Yeah, the front license plate will cover up most of the black for me. At least it doesn't look like the new Volt! WAY too much chrome on the 2016 model.

 

[jaapv]

And this is (probably) why Outlander PHEV failed to comply on the US market, especially California.

Mitsubishi actually thinks it's the design/appearance.
Therefor the US market is the main reason for the mayor facelift of the 2016 model.
To bad that Mitsubishi is willing to sacrifice the good looks of a car for one other countries taste.
But understandable, of course. They wanna make money, not Art.

Who else agrees, that this turned out for the worse??

Yuk... :shock:

Actually, coming back on topic, I am surprised nobody has suggested the blindingly obvious yet. There is an unused switch position on the dashboard. Just install a switch that cuts the power to the petrol pump..... :ugeek:

 

[maby]

Yuk... :shock:

Actually, coming back on topic, I am surprised nobody has suggested the blindingly obvious yet. There is an unused switch position on the dashboard. Just install a switch that cuts the power to the petrol pump..... :ugeek:

I think we were looking for a software-only solution. If it is just a few lines of code to change, then you might hope that they would offer it as a free update at a scheduled service, whereas they are likely to be far less willing to offer a free update if it also requires mechanical changes.