By -5C the PHEV is not a PHEV any more...

[PolishPilot]

...
hence it becomes an "ICE car with series electric transmission".

But none of that is incompatible with the description "hybrid" - there is no commitment to any particular pattern of power usage - just a commitment to blend petrol and electric drive to achieve a decent combination of performance and operating cost economy.

Exactly, with the stress on "blend". By -5C there is no "blend" any more.
It is an "ICE car with series electric transmission".

You really are inventing your own design criteria. As I reported previously, the British adverts for the PHEV have been airing a lot this afternoon on TV - they talk about fuel economy of up to 148mpg - that is a long way from pure EV.

I love the "up to 148mpg" part.

It sounds much better than " from 15mpg in Winter up to 148mpg in Summer"

 

[PolishPilot]

The English owners manual does say that the car will become inoperable at very low temperatures - but seems to indicate that those are closer to -40 than -20. By the time you get down to -20, it will to all intents and purposes become a petrol car. The battery range will become very short and the increased viscosity of the air and rolling resistance of the tyres will reduce your EV range to close to zero.

I downloaded the manual before purchase, but obviously didn't read it carefully enough.

It is getting really exciting, they just introduced the Outlander PHEV to the Russian market.
They claim they did "excessive testing under winter conditions" prior to that decision.

Maybe they did some software (and/or hardware) modifications for that market, we could profit from.

 

[maby]

...
Exactly, with the stress on "blend". By -5C there is no "blend" any more.
It is an "ICE car with series electric transmission".

...

That still does not disqualify it from being a hybrid. In the middle of the summer at speeds much above 100kph the electric motors are doing virtually nothing - does that also make it "not a hybrid"? We accept a Prius as a hybrid - at winter temperatures it is almost always running on petrol. It may have been mis-sold to you - it is behaving exactly as I expected.

 

[maby]

The English owners manual does say that the car will become inoperable at very low temperatures - but seems to indicate that those are closer to -40 than -20. By the time you get down to -20, it will to all intents and purposes become a petrol car. The battery range will become very short and the increased viscosity of the air and rolling resistance of the tyres will reduce your EV range to close to zero.

I downloaded the manual before purchase, but obviously didn't read it carefully enough.

It is getting really exciting, they just introduced the Outlander PHEV to the Russian market.
They claim they did "excessive testing under winter conditions" prior to that decision.

Maybe they did some software (and/or hardware) modifications for that market, we could profit from.

their extensive testing under winter conditions demonstrated that it continued to be useable - they only have a problem if they have promised that it can be used without ever burning petrol - I have never seen any such claim.

 

[PolishPilot]

OK, let's get positive, from the discussion above we have a "workaround" of the problem.

By the outside temperatures below -5C and short distance trip do the following
to get good mpg by avoiding the ICE start :

0. After ending the previous trip set the cabin temperature to 15C and turn the ventilation/AC system OFF.
1. Charge the battery just before driving (it will preheat the battery)
2. Preheat the cabin
3. Turn the car on, set ECO mode
4. Turn on the ventilation
5. Turn on seat heat
6. Start driving, watch the heater power consumption, when it drops to 2kW
increase the cabin temperature gradually up to requested value.

Piece of cake!

Other option (not available yet):
Press the "Pure EV" button.

 

[PolishPilot]

Hi.

Here is a technical answer why Li-based PHEV would not perfom well at low temperatures:

http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES 2013.pdf

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

UPD: Prius ignore EV-button at temperetures below 0C, and limit EV-speed at 10kph at 20C and below.
Normal EV mode is possible only if ICE warmed up completly ( > 60C now, and was at least once >70C since last power up)
This is all about lubrication scheme in Prius - oil pump runs from ice (in "gearbox"\PCU). So , oil shoud be in good condition before gears would handle the load whiout pump.
Prius battery is Ni-MH - all problems with perfomance are the same as with Li battery, but somewhere near -40C
Prius battery reports its condition to system CAN-bus, so its easy to see what is going on: 2 parameters are interesting - Allowed charge and Allowed discharge.
Allowed discharge is usualy near 23..25kW under normal conditions, and the lowwet value i saw was 6kW at -32C.

Thanks for the update.

I just wonder, how Tesla manages to sell their EV in, say, Minnesota?
(I know their main market is California, but nevertheless...)
There must be some way to make an EV work at low temperatures?
Or is it a well known problem effectively hidden by marketing specialists?

 

[maby]

Hi.

Here is a technical answer why Li-based PHEV would not perfom well at low temperatures:

http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES 2013.pdf

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

UPD: Prius ignore EV-button at temperetures below 0C, and limit EV-speed at 10kph at 20C and below.
Normal EV mode is possible only if ICE warmed up completly ( > 60C now, and was at least once >70C since last power up)
This is all about lubrication scheme in Prius - oil pump runs from ice (in "gearbox"\PCU). So , oil shoud be in good condition before gears would handle the load whiout pump.
Prius battery is Ni-MH - all problems with perfomance are the same as with Li battery, but somewhere near -40C
Prius battery reports its condition to system CAN-bus, so its easy to see what is going on: 2 parameters are interesting - Allowed charge and Allowed discharge.
Allowed discharge is usualy near 23..25kW under normal conditions, and the lowwet value i saw was 6kW at -32C.

Thanks for the update.

I just wonder, how Tesla manages to sell their EV in, say, Minnesota?
(I know their main market is California, but nevertheless...)
There must be some way to make an EV work at low temperatures?
Or is it a well known problem effectively hidden by marketing specialists?

I think there's a lot of marketing involved plus wishful thinking on the part of owners. There is at least one Tesla owner suing the company because the range of his two year old car has dropped to 150 miles and he can no longer complete his regular journey. Tesla are responding that the reduction is within expected parameters.

As an ex-Prius owner, the PHEV is performing more or less as I expected.

Incidentally, I've just checked the manual - it says that performance will be significantly impaired at -15 and the car is effectively unusable at -30. This is clearly and unambiguously documented.

 

[jaapv]

Well, at minus thirty you need a blowtorch to start a Diesel... I guess that owners living in such climates will either keep the car in a heated garage or use supplementary electric overnight heaters.
Once the car is running the electric heating of the battery compartment will kick in.

 

[anko]

6. Start driving, watch the heater power consumption, when it drops to 2kW
increase the cabin temperature gradually up to requested value.

What power consumption? Of the A/C until? The A/C unit will not use any power when the heater and the A/C are turned off. Well, a few watts for the blower. So, I don't see how this will work. But still, even at +2 degrees after 20 km of driving, my engine turns on as soon as I set the heater to 15,5.

 

[anko]

In general we should do two things:

1. We must stop complaining. It is what it is and it is what was promised. We have no formal 'case'. So complaining about how much the car costs and how ill conceived it is, won't do us any good. Let's be positive. Let's approach Mitsubishi on a worldwide coordinated scale, telling them that we would like to have the option to NOT use the engine solely for heating. That we are willing to accept the fact that it will take a lot longer to heat up (and might even be less energy efficient) than when heated by the engine. Let's explain to them that this is a great opportunity to impress the world, showing everybody that together with their drivers they do everything they can to minimise CO2 exhaust and use of fossil fuels.

2. Let's understand that at some point the engine will have to be started to keep everything in piece. This may be at -5, -10 or -15, I don't know. But it is not at +6. There is a margin between the temperature at which engine would be started for heating the cabin and the temperature at which the engine is started to prevent the engine or the battery from breaking down or such. We should accept the latter lower boundary gratefully as it protects our investments. But we should not accept the first upper boundary. We should focus on getting that margin down.

 

[PolishPilot]

6. Start driving, watch the heater power consumption, when it drops to 2kW
increase the cabin temperature gradually up to requested value.

What power consumption? Of the A/C until?

No, of the electric heater.
My car is equipped with it, maybe yours not.
The max. power of the heater is 4.8 kW.

The A/C unit will not use any power when the heater and the A/C are turned off. Well, a few watts for the blower. So, I don't see how this will work. But still, even at +2 degrees after 20 km of driving, my engine turns on as soon as I set the heater to 15,5.

See above.
If you have no electric heater, it is obvious.

 

[PolishPilot]

In general we should do two things:

1. We must stop complaining. It is what it is and it is what was promised. We have no formal 'case'. So complaining about how much the car costs and how ill conceived it is, won't do us any good. Let's be positive. Let's approach Mitsubishi on a worldwide coordinated scale, telling them that we would like to have the option to NOT use the engine solely for heating. That we are willing to accept the fact that it will take a lot longer to heat up (and might even be less energy efficient) than when heated by the engine. Let's explain to them that this is a great opportunity to impress the world, showing everybody that together with their drivers they do everything they can to minimise CO2 exhaust and use of fossil fuels.

2. Let's understand that at some point the engine will have to be started to keep everything in piece. This may be at -5, -10 or -15, I don't know. But it is not at +6. There is a margin between the temperature at which engine would be started for heating the cabin and the temperature at which the engine is started to prevent the engine or the battery from breaking down or such. We should accept the latter lower boundary gratefully as it protects our investments. But we should not accept the first upper boundary. We should focus on getting that margin down.

I agree, just hope Mitsu will react.

 

[PolishPilot]

Well, at minus thirty you need a blowtorch to start a Diesel... I guess that owners living in such climates will either keep the car in a heated garage or use supplementary electric overnight heaters.
Once the car is running the electric heating of the battery compartment will kick in.

Not true. My Hilux, although manufactured in South Africa
was prepared for northern market.

It has dual batteries and a special button to heat up faster.
It has fuel preheating. And, yes, it starts at -30C without a blowtorch.
It is a modern common rail diesel and properly mapped for starting
at such low temperatures.

Modern electronics makes it possible, this is just the matter of the company
willing to adapt the product to particular market.

When the Mitsu gives you the option to preheat the cabin,
why not preheat the battery while still on power cord?

Does anybody know, if there really is some electric heating element
on the battery? Or they just hope it will heat up when gradually
discharging it?


I am just waiting for some more news on Mitsu PHEV from Norway and Sweden.

 

[PolishPilot]

...
Exactly, with the stress on "blend". By -5C there is no "blend" any more.
It is an "ICE car with series electric transmission".

...

That still does not disqualify it from being a hybrid. In the middle of the summer at speeds much above 100kph the electric motors are doing virtually nothing - does that also make it "not a hybrid"? ...

Not true, even at 140km/h, running on ICE,
if you press the pedal the electric motors kick in
to give you extra acceleration.
Check this using the energy flow info.

I have it switched on permanently.

Also, with full (and warm) battery, accelerating slowly
I easily reach 120km/h on battery alone.

 

[anko]

6. Start driving, watch the heater power consumption, when it drops to 2kW
increase the cabin temperature gradually up to requested value.

What power consumption? Of the A/C until?

No, of the electric heater.
My car is equipped with it, maybe yours not.
The max. power of the heater is 4.8 kW.

The A/C unit will not use any power when the heater and the A/C are turned off. Well, a few watts for the blower. So, I don't see how this will work. But still, even at +2 degrees after 20 km of driving, my engine turns on as soon as I set the heater to 15,5.

See above.
If you have no electric heater, it is obvious.

Well, with A/C unit I meant the combination of A/C + electric heater. I do have the electric heater installed. Mine will not use any power as long as the A/C is off (no snowflake) and the heater is at 15 degrees.

The Mitsubishi distributor / importer in the Netherlands have confirmed that, even with electric heater installed, the engine will engage to generate heat for purpose of heating the cabin when "the temperature gets too low". Last year, I tried to find out what "too low" meant, but it seems several variables are involved:
- requested temperature
- current interior temperature
- outside temperature
- pre-heating
...

At some point I was convinced the minimal outside temperature you could 'handle' without engine was 6 or 7 degrees. But again, I guess it depends. I never got the actual algorithm.

 

[ufo]

After reading all of the posts in this tread, I am happy to report that PHEV does what it promises to do in the manuals and ads very well in mild Sydney climate, average temp 5 to 45 degrees C. Yes 45 degrees C, we had a 45 degree C day in Sydney two weeks ago, there was no range loss or any other issue, of course range went down due to A/C being on but loss of the range was same compared to any other day with A/C on set to same temperature. I always get above actual 50 kms with full battery some times mid to higher 50s even though PHEV displays around 48 km range after full charge when A/C is off. We had a few 0 degree mornings during winter and that did not make any difference either. Annoying things to me are (I know you guys are going to say that I should be happy and shut up) that wipers seems to go crazy in auto mode (they start slow and go up to max speed even though there is no change in rain intensity and remian at full speed unless you turn it off), harsh ride in Sydney's 3rd world state roads and we seem to be missing many features that are available in other markets, such as auto folding mirrors, lane departure warning, RF stereo with subwoofer, TPMS.
I would also like to have a more up-market interior, it looks very understated.

 

[jaapv]

Well, at minus thirty you need a blowtorch to start a Diesel... I guess that owners living in such climates will either keep the car in a heated garage or use supplementary electric overnight heaters.
Once the car is running the electric heating of the battery compartment will kick in.

Not true. My Hilux, although manufactured in South Africa
was prepared for northern market.

It has dual batteries and a special button to heat up faster.
It has fuel preheating. And, yes, it starts at -30C without a blowtorch.
It is a modern common rail diesel and properly mapped for starting
at such low temperatures.

Modern electronics makes it possible, this is just the matter of the company
willing to adapt the product to particular market.

When the Mitsu gives you the option to preheat the cabin,
why not preheat the battery while still on power cord?

Does anybody know, if there really is some electric heating element
on the battery? Or they just hope it will heat up when gradually
discharging it?


I am just waiting for some more news on Mitsu PHEV from Norway and Sweden.

You can preheat it whilst still on the power cord. It will take its power from the battery, but will switch on charging as the battery reaches the level to do so.
Yes the battery has an electric heater - and cooler too, for that matter.

 

[anko]

Yes the battery has an electric heater - and cooler too, for that matter.

Interesting. Where did you find this info? I did read it had three stages of cooling:
- none
- fan to even out heat differences in the pack
- fan + A/C compressor to actively cool the pack
but I did not find anything about a heater in the pack ...

 

[jaapv]

Explained to me by my dealer. If wrong, his fault.

 

[anko]

Dealers .... :? Well, he still could be right. :idea: