By -5C the PHEV is not a PHEV any more...

[PolishPilot]

Well, at least with above 0 temperatures, the engine does not fire up unless you set the heater to 15,5 or floor it. This morning, I did 20 km without engine. Than I set the heater to 15,5 and immediately the engine fired. So, at ' our' current conditions, warming up the engine itself seems not a reason for firing it up ...

I tried it myself, it sure works, but...

...why should I do tricks with my temperature settings?
Why not give me an option "pure electric vehicle"???

I work with electronic hardware and related software, and I am sick and tired
of "workarounds" to cover programmers and engineers c..ck-ups.

If I pay €55.000 I expect not to be forced to do tricks,
to get what has been advertised.

 

[PolishPilot]

Hi.

Here is a technical answer why Li-based PHEV would not perfom well at low temperatures:

http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES 2013.pdf

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

Than you for a clear answer, confirming my initial observation.
So, I will just repeat:

So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is
cold.

Hence:

By -5C the PHEV is not a PHEV any more.

 

[jaapv]

Well, at least with above 0 temperatures, the engine does not fire up unless you set the heater to 15,5 or floor it. This morning, I did 20 km without engine. Than I set the heater to 15,5 and immediately the engine fired. So, at ' our' current conditions, warming up the engine itself seems not a reason for firing it up ...

I tried it myself, it sure works, but...

...why should I do tricks with my temperature settings?
Why not give me an option "pure electric vehicle"???

I work with electronic hardware and related software, and I am sick and tired
of "workarounds" to cover programmers and engineers c..ck-ups.

If I pay €55.000 I expect not to be forced to do tricks,
to get what has been advertised.

Well, it is advertised as a Plug-in HYBRID Electric vehicle, and that is exactly what you got. That means it is not a pure electric vehicle, so you did not get that. In that case you would have had to buy for instance a Nissan Leaf, which would have you fighting a severely reduced range in winter.

 

[maby]

Hi.

Here is a technical answer why Li-based PHEV would not perfom well at low temperatures:

http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES 2013.pdf

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

Interesting. I must say that I have wondered about the wisdom of Mitsubishi offering the car in countries that commonly have periods of significantly cold weather.

Regarding the lack of Outlander PHEVs in the US market, I think PP is correct that the Californian rules would not favour it, but I was under the impression that the primary reason was that the battery monitoring and control systems did not meet US requirements. There were a few high-profile PHEV battery failures a year or so ago including at least one car that was destroyed by a battery fire. Mitsubishi claim to have diagnosed and fixed that problem, but I believe that the US authorities require more sophisticated protection mechanisms on cars before they are allowed to run big Lithium packs on public roads.

 

[PolishPilot]

Even Prius, with it's pathetic little electric engine and small battery has an EV button!

Let's be careful, not to ask for an "EV button". Mitsu interprets "EV button" as a Limited Driving Capability (not engage the engine when you purposely or accidentally floor it) and think that not having all power available in an emergency situation is a liability risk.

Let's ask for ECO+ (as in: ECO + no engine forgetting purposes).

AFAIK the throttle pedal has a "double bottom".
You press to a certain depth, and then the force needed to press further increases.
Even in EV mode pressing the throttle over this threshold could start the ICE and
give you full 120kW power. Your choice. (So it happens when the car is warm.)

But we are given no choice.

 

[PolishPilot]

Well, it is advertised as a Plug-in HYBRID Electric vehicle, and that is exactly what you got. That means it is not a pure electric vehicle, so you did not get that. In that case you would have had to buy for instance a Nissan Leaf, which would have you fighting a severely reduced range in winter.

That's why I bought a PHEV. I want an EV, but I want no range limitation.

BTW: HYBRID, means it does both, runs as a ICE car and/or as EV, when needed.
Not, when Mitsu tells me, it's convinient for them.

But I think the post by Igor closes the case:

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

 

[jaapv]

Hi.

Here is a technical answer why Li-based PHEV would not perfom well at low temperatures:

http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES 2013.pdf

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

Than you for a clear answer, confirming my initial observation.
So, I will just repeat:

So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is
cold.

Hence:

By -5C the PHEV it is not a PHEV any more.

That is nonsense. As I said A PHEV is a Hybrid, it is not a pure EV.

 

[maby]

...

AFAIK the throttle pedal has a "double bottom".
You press to a certain depth, and then the force needed to press further increases.
Even in EV mode pressing the throttle over this threshold could start the ICE and
give you full 120kW power. Your choice. (So it happens when the car is warm.)

But we are given no choice.

Quite true, you are not. And it was never promised either. I'm sitting here typing this on a Lenovo PC - it does not give me the choice of running iOS - I can't complain because it never offered that option - sorry.

I am not aware of any "double bottom" on the accelerator. I think it is safe to say that there is no mechanical connection to the engine - it is just a digitiser that you use to indicate how fast you want to go - the algorithms in the control unit decide how to achieve that for you.

 

[Ozukus]

I think the point that PolishPilot is trying to make is that he would trade range for the vehicle to run pure electric and only have the engine used on an on demand basis, or for serial mode for battery charging say when the battery depleted below 20%.

Basically having a bit more control over what is happening.

I think the key issue as was written earlier is the vehicle is not overly suited for countries that have long cold winters, unless your willing to accept 30-35MPG during that period with improvements in spring and autumn and optimal use in summer.

 

[maby]

...

BTW: HYBRID, means it does both, runs as a ICE car and/or as EV, when needed.
Not, when Mitsu tells me, it's convinient for them.

...

HYBRID does not mean either/or - it means that the car uses a combination of petrol and electricity to deliver good fuel economy (and avoid a lot of taxes in many countries). The Prius is a hybrid - it hardly ever runs on pure electricity. It plays the petrol engine and the electric motor off against each other to improve fuel efficiency. The Outlander has a higher capacity battery and can run for longer without starting the petrol engine, but only under the right circumstances - you are asking for something that was never promised and did not figure in the design criteria.

 

[jdsx]

I think the point that PolishPilot is trying to make is that he would trade range for the vehicle to run pure electric and only have the engine used on an on demand basis, or for serial mode for battery charging say when the battery depleted below 20%.

Basically having a bit more control over what is happening.

I think the key issue as was written earlier is the vehicle is not overly suited for countries that have long cold winters, unless your willing to accept 30-35MPG during that period with improvements in spring and autumn and optimal use in summer.

Well said, Ozukus, couldn't have put ti better myself!

 

[IgorTr]

Sure, that "ECO+" is possible by just software changes (get pure-EV, but cold inside and verrrry slow and unresponsitive during winter),
and even kick-down with ICE start is also possible.( OK, pure-EV, but ICE would last not 100.000-200.000 km, but probably just 50.000 km)
But Mitsu desided not give this settings to user...

This is mass-market, and its impossible to satisfy everyboody.
I would prefer to have such settings..maybe somethere deep inside to not distrub guys, that dot event want ot know how their car works.
Maybe, with limited warranties ( eco+ enabled -> limit warrany to 60.000), or something like that.

Ok, this is dreams..

 

[maby]

Sure, that "ECO+" is possible by just software changes (get pure-EV, but cold inside and verrrry slow and unresponsitive during winter),
and even kick-down with ICE start is also possible.( OK, pure-EV, but ICE would last not 100.000-200.000 km, but probably just 50.000 km)
But Mitsu desided not give this settings to user...

This is mass-market, and its impossible to satisfy everyboody.
I would prefer to have such settings..maybe somethere deep inside to not distrub guys, that dot event want ot know how their car works.
Maybe, with limited warranties ( eco+ enabled -> limit warrany to 60.000), or something like that.

Ok, this is dreams..

They may well be concerned about the impact on the life expectancy of both the petrol engine and the battery pack.

 

[maby]

P.S. - I'm working from home with the TV on in the background - they have just run the British Outlander PHEV advert - it suggests "up to 148mpg" - no suggestion that it can run as a pure EV.

 

[jaapv]

Actually, if you are in Speed Limit mode it has a double bottom, you run up against a quite pronounced resistance and can push further to override.
However, even if it would solve the safety aspect of "Pure EV", it would not solve the problem of excessive engine wear because of short bursts with cold oil. In fact, it would probably make it worse.

...

AFAIK the throttle pedal has a "double bottom".
You press to a certain depth, and then the force needed to press further increases.
Even in EV mode pressing the throttle over this threshold could start the ICE and
give you full 120kW power. Your choice. (So it happens when the car is warm.)

But we are given no choice.

Quite true, you are not. And it was never promised either. I'm sitting here typing this on a Lenovo PC - it does not give me the choice of running iOS - I can't complain because it never offered that option - sorry.

I am not aware of any "double bottom" on the accelerator. I think it is safe to say that there is no mechanical connection to the engine - it is just a digitiser that you use to indicate how fast you want to go - the algorithms in the control unit decide how to achieve that for you.

 

[PolishPilot]

That is nonsense. As I said A PHEV is a Hybrid, it is not a pure EV.

PHEV is supposed to be able to use regenerative braking for saving energy.

The problem is not only it cannot drive as pure EV below -5C,
but also it cannot charge the battery with higher currents,
hence, it cannot do regenerative braking,
hence it becomes an "ICE car with series electric transmission".

 

[PolishPilot]

Actually, if you are in Speed Limit mode it has a double bottom, you run up against a quite pronounced resistance and can push further to override.
However, even if it would solve the safety aspect of "Pure EV", it would not solve the problem of excessive engine wear because of short bursts with cold oil. In fact, it would probably make it worse.

Very good point.

The automation of cars and aircraft is going too far sometimes, but it is dedicated
to avoid human errors.

Old school pilots cannot fly the newest Airbus, she will just not do, what they tell her to do.

So, Mitsu just protects the car ICE and battery from some crazy driver ideas.

Still curious what will happen by -20C.

 

[jaapv]

Indeed, and the PHEV gives you just two pedals and a few buttons to operate it. I bet you prefer to fly a Cessna Caravan over an Airbus 380... :lol:

 

[maby]

That is nonsense. As I said A PHEV is a Hybrid, it is not a pure EV.

PHEV is supposed to be able to use regenerative braking for saving energy.

The problem is not only it cannot drive as pure EV below -5C,
but also it cannot charge the battery with higher currents,
hence, it cannot do regenerative braking,
hence it becomes an "ICE car with series electric transmission".

But none of that is incompatible with the description "hybrid" - there is no commitment to any particular pattern of power usage - just a commitment to blend petrol and electric drive to achieve a decent combination of performance and operating cost economy. You really are inventing your own design criteria. As I reported previously, the British adverts for the PHEV have been airing a lot this afternoon on TV - they talk about fuel economy of up to 148mpg - that is a long way from pure EV.

 

[maby]

Actually, if you are in Speed Limit mode it has a double bottom, you run up against a quite pronounced resistance and can push further to override.
However, even if it would solve the safety aspect of "Pure EV", it would not solve the problem of excessive engine wear because of short bursts with cold oil. In fact, it would probably make it worse.

Very good point.

The automation of cars and aircraft is going too far sometimes, but it is dedicated
to avoid human errors.

Old school pilots cannot fly the newest Airbus, she will just not do, what they tell her to do.

So, Mitsu just protects the car ICE and battery from some crazy driver ideas.

Still curious what will happen by -20C.

The English owners manual does say that the car will become inoperable at very low temperatures - but seems to indicate that those are closer to -40 than -20. By the time you get down to -20, it will to all intents and purposes become a petrol car. The battery range will become very short and the increased viscosity of the air and rolling resistance of the tyres will reduce your EV range to close to zero.