Idea to stop ICE from starting when cold

[elm70]

Thanks elm

Well I have lost the WiFi passcode so I use the keyfob hack to start preheat, then restart after 10 min and then again.

Now, when you say possibly there is another sensor to be fooled, maybe there is another way of fooling the car. What if you can send the "superbrain" of the car a fake "ICE is running" command. Would that be simpler than anything else? I.e. highjack the status link and send an "ICE is running". Or would that play havoc into all other sorts of things?? Like going into parallell mode thinking the ICE is running when it is not

Hi all. First post on here as a short time lurker with a PHEV, hopefully, in the driveway in a couple of months. I'll be buying my brothers company car when his lease runs out in May (if the price turns out to be right).

I think Steepndeep's idea might be a good approach to this problem.
Here's maybe a tweak to it. How about looking at the conditions for -allowing- the ICE to start instead of the conditions that -want- to start it...
How about blocking one of those conditions, for example no fuel in the tank? If "we" are able to alter the reading from a temp sensor it could be just as easy to make the car think there is no petrol and I guess a start attempt wouldn't be allowed. VTech could perhaps sniff the CAN bus for the fuel messages and send his own (empty tank) once EV button is depressed.

I'll continue to read the forum until I get my hands on the car and then I'll probably start with all of the new gyu questions

I would be caution on sending error code to the car over CAN bus ... if ICE can't be started, car can even decide to stop the car too ... better is to "fake" the temperature sensors involved (at the moment we are hacking only 1 sensor, possibly we would need to hack others too)

The vtech BOX that does also ICE stopper (via temperature sensor hacking) ... if I got it right, it is also connected on the CAN bus from the "gas pedal" connector ... so if there is a code for disable the ICE start in this situation, his box could use it, fact that his box can't prevent all the times the ICE to start for warm up the cabin, it means that such a magic code does not exist or it is not known to vtech (or it is too "risky" to be used)

 

[JockeD]

I would be caution on sending error code to the car over CAN bus ... if ICE can't be started, car can even decide to stop the car too ... better is to "fake" the temperature sensors involved (at the moment we are hacking only 1 sensor, possibly we would need to hack others too)

The vtech BOX that does also ICE stopper (via temperature sensor hacking) ... if I got it right, it is also connected on the CAN bus from the "gas pedal" connector ... so if there is a code for disable the ICE start in this situation, his box could use it, fact that his box can't prevent all the times the ICE to start for warm up the cabin, it means that such a magic code does not exist or it is not known to vtech (or it is too "risky" to be used)

I'm not talking about an error code. Just modifying the level of petrol in the tank to read zero. "Empty" must be just an acceptable value as "full", don't you think?
I see two ways of doing this. One is to hack into the electrical signal, like phevnor does to the temp sensor, and the other is to do it on the CAN bus. Since I have no idea how the sender is connected to the rest of the car (is the sender a CAN node itself or connected to some I/O etc) I wouldn't know where "the hack" is best suited.
I assume the petrol level, in form of ones and zeros somewhere, is just a CAN id and a value that needs to be resent (set to zero) every time the petrol sender updates its value.

I'm thinking that there is somewhere code similar to this.
if (someTempReadingWantICEStart && ICEAllowedToStart && otherUnknownFactors)
startICE();

So far, it sounds like, everyone has focused on the someTempReadingWantICEStart part. I'm just introducing the idea of looking at the ICEAllowedToStart part

But like you say there could be some other features/limitations/risks I don't kow about that makes this a terrible idea

I hope Vtech, phevnor etc will give their point of view on this.

 

[jaapv]

Yes, you can do this by pulling the fuse on the petrol pump. However, the car will go into warning and low-fuel emergency mode when doing so.

 

[JockeD]

Yes, you can do this by pulling the fuse on the petrol pump. However, the car will go into warning and low-fuel emergency mode when doing so.

That way sounds a bit crude. I was thinking about a "softer" way

But if it will give a really good result and no bad side effects I would be willing to try it. What does "low-fuel emergency mode" mean?
A switch that cuts the power to the pump mounted in the cabin could do the trick.

 

[elm70]

Yes, you can do this by pulling the fuse on the petrol pump. However, the car will go into warning and low-fuel emergency mode when doing so.

Interesting ... this would be the fuse 23 rated 15A in the engine compartment .. right?

This will also make a pure EV mode :shock:

A Switch to control this .. would make a perfect EV button :mrgreen:

 

[anko]

Here's maybe a tweak to it. How about looking at the conditions for -allowing- the ICE to start instead of the conditions that -want- to start it...
How about blocking one of those conditions, for example no fuel in the tank? If "we" are able to alter the reading from a temp sensor it could be just as easy to make the car think there is no petrol and I guess a start attempt wouldn't be allowed. VTech could perhaps sniff the CAN bus for the fuel messages and send his own (empty tank) once EV button is depressed.

Some, including me have already done this, with 'great' success: simply remove the fuel pump fuse from the fuse box.

It will try to start the engine, but it will fail, resulting in a CEL coming on in the dashboard. But the car will continue to operate 'normally'. Works very well. Problem / Risk is that you do not have full power available when needed to get out of a dangerous situation.

 

[elm70]

Some, including me have already done this, with 'great' success: simply remove the fuel pump fuse from the fuse box.

It will try to start the engine, but it will fail, resulting in a CEL coming on in the dashboard. But the car will continue to operate 'normally'. Works very well. Problem / Risk is that you do not have full power available when needed to get out of a dangerous situation.

Thanks

I did not know this.

It sounds more easy this then not install a vtech box

I can even make bluetooth switch that cut this fuse from a mobile phone command

PS: Still it may prevent starting ICE when cabin need to be warmed up, but I guess the car will not start the electric heating system instead .. just blink an error code, and leave the cabin in the cold

 

[anko]

PS: Still it may prevent starting ICE when cabin need to be warmed up, but I guess the car will not start the electric heating system instead .. just blink an error code, and leave the cabin in the cold

I am pretty sure it will start the electric heater. In a normal situation, when the ICE is started for heating purposes, the electric heater continues to blast away, until the coolant reaches 70 deg C and the valve opens. The difference now is that the coolant will never reach 70 deg C and the valve will never open.

I think one of the Down Under guys ran (or planned to run) two wires through his firewall to allow him to disable the fuse from within the cabin.

 

[elm70]

Without having to do much DIY .. there is already a solution for 6 USD :shock:

http://www.banggood.com/DC-12V-10A-Relay-1CH-Wireless-RF-Remote-Control-Switch-Transmitter-Receiver-p-1040721.html?rmmds=search

 

[JockeD]

Here's maybe a tweak to it. How about looking at the conditions for -allowing- the ICE to start instead of the conditions that -want- to start it...
How about blocking one of those conditions, for example no fuel in the tank? If "we" are able to alter the reading from a temp sensor it could be just as easy to make the car think there is no petrol and I guess a start attempt wouldn't be allowed. VTech could perhaps sniff the CAN bus for the fuel messages and send his own (empty tank) once EV button is depressed.

Some, including me have already done this, with 'great' success: simply remove the fuel pump fuse from the fuse box.

It will try to start the engine, but it will fail, resulting in a CEL coming on in the dashboard. But the car will continue to operate 'normally'. Works very well. Problem / Risk is that you do not have full power available when needed to get out of a dangerous situation.

Good point about the potential lack of power. That rules out just pulling the fuse. It would need a switch in the cabin.
One way is to mount the switch really convenient, perhaps on the steering wheel even, so that you can easily allow the ICE to start. The other, much more appealing, is the CAN message way. If controlled by the VTEch box the ICE would start just like it does today (and also no CEL etc)

 

[elm70]

Good point about the potential lack of power. That rules out just pulling the fuse. It would need a switch in the cabin.
One way is to mount the switch really convenient, perhaps on the steering wheel even, so that you can easily allow the ICE to start. The other, much more appealing, is the CAN message way. If controlled by the VTEch box the ICE would start just like it does today (and also no CEL etc)

You really like the CAN messages

One thing about the switch (for me is more easy to make it wireless controller, so no cabling around to handle) ...
I believe the issue is following:
Car start, with Pump disconnected .. at first "hard" acceleration, ICE try to kick in, it fail, error message .. and car still work in EV mode
Later on, we may want to have ICE .. in theory by a switch we could reconnect the Pump .. but I doubt that with a fault on .. the car will try to start again the ICE .. normally what is needed is to switch off the car and restart or reset the fault code on the fly (via a OBD2 bluetooth) .. at least this is my experience with "engine fault" and power reduced on my BMW ... which has a JB4 module that allow to reset the error code while driving.

Assuming this is the case .. then it will be even more easy to send the fault code that pump does not work .. and car is in EV mode
And then send the reset of this code ...
This I guess will be the most elegant solution. And it is exactly via the CAN messages as you are suggesting

 

[phevnor]

How about telling petrol level is zero (Perhaps allready been thought off?). That should not give any fault code other then telling the tank is empty?
The wiring is shown here: http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander_iii/online/Service_Manual_2013/img/90/HEU10E10AC00ENG.pdf
And the way to hack is here:
https://sites.google.com/site/shannonpowerlab2/home/calibrating-your-fuel-gauge
I got 8 more potmeters left, and if I found the wiring in front panel (Anyone got an idea were to look), a switch could be set so the potmeter is on or off to fools the signal so the car read empty fueltank.
This would realy make it pure EV.

 

[elm70]

Some, including me have already done this, with 'great' success: simply remove the fuel pump fuse from the fuse box.

It will try to start the engine, but it will fail, resulting in a CEL coming on in the dashboard. But the car will continue to operate 'normally'. Works very well. Problem / Risk is that you do not have full power available when needed to get out of a dangerous situation.

Just for be sure .. the fuse from the fuse box under the hood, and it is the F14 rated 15amp .. right ?

So .. I took it out .. tried to start the engine by running the heating . and the first time I tried, I got the error on dashboard

I put it back the fuse ... and then I keep holding on charger 10 seconds .. and the start did start normally

The ... I took this fuse out again ...

But now I don't get anymore the error on dashboard ... and apparently it try to start the engine all the time ... it does show even the charging arrow for around 1 second ... and the power on the dash got even a bit over 60kw, for then go back to 60 ... if I keep flooring the gas, it looks like it try to start the engine every 2 seconds ...

What is the impact for the engine and fuel pump to have this happening often ?

I don't get why on the first time I got the error, and then on the following time I don't get the error anymore :shock:

Anyhow ... without the fuse .. I can floor the gas .. and the 60kw electric power do really a good job ... would be nice to have this all the time ..

Take in and out the fuse take very short time ... it sounds already a solution to me ... I'm just wondering if anybody is aware of any side effect

 

[elm70]

On more update about the fuse removal:

Today my car after sitting and charge in the night .. did behave differently.

As soon as it switch on, the car does activate on his own "CHARGE" ... and try to start the engine .. now it does recognize that this fail, and it blink the error

With error on .. it does not try anymore to start the engine, unless the car get switch off and on again.

Available power is full, actually my gouge goes above the 60kw .. almost 70kw (I would need to check with EVbatMon, in the past max battery power was reported to be 63kw at max .. but I guess I'm getting more now)

As said .. drive in pure EV mode is a full pleasure ... 60kw is still allow max acceleration up to ~50km/h .. and the push is still nice up to 80km/h .. so perfect for urban traffic .. no more issue on partial gas for avoid ICE to kick in .. even at low speed when car would not use anyhow more then 60kw power, if gas pedal is pressed too much, the engine start in advance assuming more power is needed in the following seconds ...

Ok .. so now , engine try to start at every time I switch on the car ... how bad it could be on the long run ?

Any idea ?

Any suggestion how often I should free the engine to properly fire up ? Once every second week would be enough ?

 

[elm70]

I find this out .. back in 2015: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16332#p16332

Unfortunately chasingamy disappeared from the board also in 2015 ... so his experience reported here is possible few days or weeks

But he was a strong believer that no arm to the car can be done due to multiple engine start without the fuel pump electricity on it

 

[Steepndeep]

Hi

When the car attempts to start the ICE, does it engage the starter so it spins the cold ICE a few turns before it realizes that the fuel pump does not work? Or does it check fuel pump first?

 

[elm70]

Hi

When the car attempts to start the ICE, does it engage the starter so it spins the cold ICE a few turns before it realizes that the fuel pump does not work? Or does it check fuel pump first?

Yes Engine does spin .. maybe for around 1 or 2 seconds.

Actually I'm not sure how the check is done.

On my "first" day .. when I did remove the fuse, and then put it back ,,, and put it out again .. I did not got any error at all in this situation .. and ICE was trying to start multiple time (all the time it was needed) .. it was even showing a charging arrow on the dash for very short time ..

On the next day .. my PHEV starts to behave different .. and now it switchs into "CHARGE" mode .. and fail (with error in the dash) .. almost as soon as I switch on my car .. and yes .. I can hear the engine is running, and also some fuel consumption is reported by the TRIP/ECO screen .. very very little consumption . like 0.3L/100km after 10km trip

Yes .. apparently there is no sensor that is checking the fuel pressure after the pump .. else it could avoid to even try to start the engine if there is no fuel pressure

Question for me is: what is the arm for the engine and fuel pump .. to start the engine without electricity on the fuel pump .. chasingamy was not looking afraid of it ..

I can't find any documentation on the net about people experimenting this condition (for a normal car there is no point to try to start th engine without the fuse on the fuel pump) .. and from my understanding .. I'm in my uncomfortable spot ... I don't see any issue on rotating the engine .. only possible issue is the fuel injector and the pump that are potentially left dry (or more dry) and with fuel pump that may have some "vacuum" effect from the piston that may try suck air while the fuel pump is "still" ... but .. maybe due to vacuum effect some little fuel is still ending in the engine, but in too small amount for self sustain the rotation.

 

[elm70]

One more update

Like yesterday, same happen today ... after an initial EV failure on the next drive, the car does not recognize anymore the error, it does not enter in "EV mode/failure/service" .. instead it try to start the engine all the needed time.

Unfortunately this got combined with "CHARGE" ... that means the car did try all the time to start the engine

Also chasingamy reported that short after he start to remove the fuse, he also got the issue with CHARGE ... maybe it is a double coincidence ... or maybe this failure also make the car to believe the fuel is old

At the end ... I did put back the fuse .. let the engine run for a while ... and then I had to unplug the 12V battery for reset this charging mode.

I'm going to experiment later ... for now I'm going back to "stock" .. also I want to double check my ICE is still able to provide the full juice in acceleration

What I did "learn", it is that my engine did not suffer driving 10km while the ICE try to start every few seconds.. still ... it was a hard way to verify that this does not arm the engine (apparently)

PS: Ideally .. it would be nice to generate this EV service error ... without the need to even start the engine .. maybe I can try to scan the OBD2 logs and see if I can find this code .. and send back to the car

 

[JockeD]

How about telling petrol level is zero (Perhaps allready been thought off?). That should not give any fault code other then telling the tank is empty?
The wiring is shown here: http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander_iii/online/Service_Manual_2013/img/90/HEU10E10AC00ENG.pdf
And the way to hack is here:
https://sites.google.com/site/shannonpowerlab2/home/calibrating-your-fuel-gauge
I got 8 more potmeters left, and if I found the wiring in front panel (Anyone got an idea were to look), a switch could be set so the potmeter is on or off to fools the signal so the car read empty fueltank.
This would realy make it pure EV.

That was my initial idea. To let the car know it is not allowed to even try to start the car. If it can be done by the VTech box it could just as easily let the ICE start when hitting the "kick down button". No switches or pots, just a nice clean CAN message that says we have fuel or not, depending on what we want.
If this is the best way to do it, I don't know but it seems plausible to me.

 

[elm70]

Anybody has a dictionary of CAN messages for the PHEV or the Outlander ?

I'm not sure I like much this ZERO fuel message, since the car has its own behaviour on low fuel and zero fuel, since the PHEV does not like to burn the last drop of fuel from the tank

What I can see more easily it is to get error "EV service mode" which block the usage of ICE ... this message is sent most of the time when the fuel pump fuse is removed, so to discover this message should not be so complicated.

PS: After I disconnect the battery for reset the "CHARGE mode" ... I did seen for the first time the estimated range set to 50km .. (was also after 5min of pre-heating) ... but . range drop down very fast under usage, even if I was driving "soft"