Idea to stop ICE from starting when cold

[phevnor]

I belive I got a automatic solution.

Long story told shortly, a resistance of 1,7kOhm in series with original sensor, and one set to 6,1kOhm in parallell will give a reading for the car 13 to 20C when it is actually between -5C to 20C.
The worst to do now is to cut one of the original wires, and put in a potmeter that I can dial to 1,7kOhm.

 

[elm70]

Excellent, good idea to combine series and parallel resistors

Only issue for me is that here I can get up to -25, but at such level maybe it is worth to start ICE
But with up to -10 (which is quite common in the morning in winter time) I would like to avoid ICE to start

Where is documented the expected resistance for the different temperature level?

Or maybe what is the resistance value for fake 14 deg

Personally, I will go for the switch approach

Also, which cheap tool do you suggest for remove the central pannel?

 

[anko]

I belive I got a automatic solution.

Long story told shortly, a resistance of 1,7kOhm in series with original sensor, and one set to 6,1kOhm in parallell will give a reading for the car 13 to 20C when it is actually between -5C to 20C.
The worst to do now is to cut one of the original wires, and put in a potmeter that I can dial to 1,7kOhm.

Nice. Is that from trial and error? Or do you have a formula for that?

I think it would love to see for example -10 to 22 being translated into 17 to 22.

 

[phevnor]

I bought this cheap tools on eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4pcs-Car-Radio-Door-Body-Clip-Panel-Trim-Dash-Audio-Plastic-Removal-Pry-Tool-Kit-/361233199214

I use the formula learned years ago, and Excel, and Googl-calc for seeking the matching recistans. (I have become lacy in manual calculations)

1/R = 1/R1 + 1/R2 ..... + 1/Rn for parallell , and R=R1 + P2 ......+ Rn for serial.

Down to -25, I think you best have to make use of the ICE, the 4,5 kW electric will take loong time to heat the car.
Also, the caracteristic will practically become flat, very sencitive. Huge tempvariation almost no change in recistanse.

For the -10 to 22 for fakeing 17-22, a parallell og 4kOhm and serial of 2,2kOhm seem to make it. But this will also give a rather flat caracteristic of the relation of temp and reading of recistance.

 

[anko]

Okay. Thanks for that!

Down to -25, I think you best have to make use of the ICE, the 4,5 kW electric will take long time to heat the car.

This is what Mitsubishi says also. But on a short trip to the mall, starting the ICE won't do any good either, as it starts doing something useful only when the coolant reaches 70 deg C. And in the mean time, the electric heater will run full power anyway. So, you have three options:
- No ventilation
- Set heater to 15 deg C and blow in outside air
- Set heater to > 15 deg C, use electricity and and burn fuel for nothing

With your solution (if it works), you can set the heater to > 15 deg C, use electricity and not burn fuel for nothing.

 

[anko]

Just to be sure, I assume you are familiair with this link?

http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander_iii/online/Service_Manual_2013/2016/index_M2.htm
http://mmc-manuals.ru/manuals/outlander_iii/online/Service_Manual_2013/2016/index_M1.htm

Chapters 55 of both links give a lot of info regarding the heater.

Chapter 80 of second doc has wiring harnesses and such.


edit - Never mind. Looking back at the first page of this thread, I realise you are familiair with these links ;-)

 

[phevnor]

ANKO, i've seen those chapters.

With the setting I got now, the engine still start. A after a minute, it operates "nervously", that is, it stop, but a light press on the "gaspedal", and the engine starts. So it is not completely turned off.
I belive there is still a potential in tweaking the setting on the potmeter.

 

[anko]

With the setting I got now, the engine still start. A after a minute, it operates "nervously", that is, it stop, but a light press on the "gaspedal", and the engine starts. So it is not completely turned off.

Is this when turning on the heater after selecting ECO mode? Or is this when the heater is on, before ECO mode is selected? Because, like I said, I believe in non ECO mode you need more than 13 degrees. More like 17 or 18 or so.

Either way, I am surprised that it responds to you pushing the gaspedal :shock:

 

[phevnor]

With the setting I got now, the engine still start. A after a minute, it operates "nervously", that is, it stop, but a light press on the "gaspedal", and the engine starts. So it is not completely turned off.

Is this when turning on the heater after selecting ECO mode? Or is this when the heater is on, before ECO mode is selected? Because, like I said, I believe in non ECO mode you need more than 13 degrees. More like 17 or 18 or so.

Either way, I am surprised that it responds to you pushing the gaspedal :shock:

Was out now. -2C in car. I have the potmeter so I can take it of the paralell, and check it. It was set to high.
I tuned it to 11 kOhm.
Started the car, with 15,5 set on the heather, in Normal mode.
ICE started, and run for approx 1 min, then started charge, I then pressed ECO, but still ICE running.
Switched the heather of, ICE stopped, and then immidiate put heather on again.
Electric heat only for apporx 30 sec, then ICE started.

I will see how it behave tomorrow morning, when of to work. Will start in ECO-mode, heater on, 15,5C

 

[elm70]

Per the picture that you posted:

The aim is to have ~7kOhm between pin 13 and 17 .. for have a reading of 15deg

When it is -2 deg .. sensor should read around 13kohm .. so with only 11kohm in parallel .. total resistance will be around 6kohm

Se yes ... this 6kohm should have been read like ambient temperature above 15 deg.

Did you check on EvBatMon what is reported as ambient temperature ?

I believe that the advantage of a switch, is that there is no guess work left. Once tuned the proper resistance value with the help of EvBatMan and a potentiometer ... than this should "work" all the time ... assuming there is no other signal used by the firmware then just the ambient temperature (actually the car has other multiple temperature sensors which may play a role too)

 

[phevnor]

To and from work to day, -5C this morning, and -6C as ambient reported by car.
11kOhm at potmeter, the ICE started and running for approx 1km drive.
I haven't installed EVbatMon other then tested, as the android pad is installed in my Leaf. (But a anroid cheap phone arrived to day),

The ICE running without charging for about 3-400 meters. Did stop when only rolling, but start immidiate i press pedal.
After 1 km, ICE stop, and heat on approx 3kW, setting 15,5. Could increase after a while.

 

[phevnor]

Made a "reconfiguration", with introductionof a switch. On/off with the switch, and the setup is either the potmeter set on 5 kOhm, or the potmeter i paralell with the original sensor.

A short testrun. Outside temp is -6C. Set temp to 20C on heather.
Switch set so so only potmeter in the circut.
ICE started, and run as before. After 1 km ICE of, also as before,
Then swithed on, so original sensor also in circut. After less then a minut, no energy for heating. The setpoint bellowwhat car was reading.
Not sure what to conclude. I will run the comming week with the fixed potmeter (Switch of) and se hov it behave. Will be a bit warmer nest week, round zero.

 

[elm70]

Thanks for the update
Possibly not only cabin temperature is used by car ecu

 

[phevnor]

Thank you ebay , 10pcs-5K-Ohm-Linear-B-Type-Taper-Rotary-Potentiometer arrived for almost nothing, and I will make a final setup tomorrow.

I will put two inn parallell of the original to get 10kOhm to "flat" out the curve for the original thermistor. Then put one i serial to "lift" the curve of recistance so the new caracteristic match in 20C.

The 10kOhm drops the caracteristic curve so at 20C original reading is somewere above 30C. Putting a recistance og 1,2kOhm in serial with the original while 10kOhm is coupeled in parallell will fix so the control read 20c as the original 20C. If I want more temp, there will be a deviation, but my body do not read if it 24C or 25C, it feel if it is all right! I will live with that.

 

[phevnor]

Finished mounting of switches. 3D printed "dummies" that I could put the swithes into.
The lower switch is for the serial resistance, in off position the 1,2kOhm is engaged. On it is bypassed.
The upper for 10kOhm in parallell when switch on.

Default, I will have both resistances engaged in circut. If very cold, the lower switch can be set on so it rice the read temp approx 10C.

 

[elm70]

Very nice job phevnor

Possibly this "switch" solution should work fine with outside temperature above 0

But ... for what you report before and what is "stated" by vtech in his Box with ICE stopper ... for temperature below 0, we have no way to stop the ICE by controlling only this internal temperature sensor.

For me ... the electric heater is mainly needed when outside is below zero for defrost the car without using the ICE ... when temperature is above zero, on short trip I have no issue on "drive in the cold" .. for longer trip ... I have no issue on start the ICE

So, for my needs I believe there is no solution ..

I have the tools and switch on the way to china for make my own resistor switch ... and as well .. finally I decided to order a Vtech BOX .. but I may not use the ICE stopper from the Vtech box

 

[Steepndeep]

Hi

I started this thread and I am impressed by the comments here. Glad to see phevnor experimenting

What elm just said made me wonder what he refers to. I have by using preheat for 30 minutes been successful in running the car with no ICE start down to minus 10 C while heating the cabin to 20 C. Consumes a lot of electricity but works for shorter trips. So why do you think fooling the car to belive indoor temp is 15 C will not work when outside is below 0?

 

[elm70]

Hi

I started this thread and I am impressed by the comments here. Glad to see phevnor experimenting

What elm just said made me wonder what he refers to. I have by using preheat for 30 minutes been successful in running the car with no ICE start down to minus 10 C while heating the cabin to 20 C. Consumes a lot of electricity but works for shorter trips. So why do you think fooling the car to belive indoor temp is 15 C will not work when outside is below 0?

I'm not able to set 30min pre-heat on my car .. so I have no experience on it.
I only know that setting 10min, I can only win 7deg in the cabin temperature compared to outside temperature .. so I will never get 20deg cabin temperature in my car by pre-heating.

By pre-heating .. not only the cabin temperature is higher, but as well the coolant temperature of the liquid used by the car heating system ... so .. if your result is confirmed .. possibly it would be needed to hack also this temperature sensor for avoid totally ICE start.

Anyhow, my comment was about the report from phevnor .. you can see that twice he did set via a resistor in parallel an ambient temperature in the range that should prevent ICE start .. but .. both the time ICE did start for a while, and always it start as soon as car heater is activated.
In the vtech box explenation, it is made clear that his ICE stopper .. does not stop ICE all the time, but it is normal to have ICE to run for 1 minutes when heating cabin is requested

 

[Steepndeep]

Thanks elm

Well I have lost the WiFi passcode so I use the keyfob hack to start preheat, then restart after 10 min and then again.

Now, when you say possibly there is another sensor to be fooled, maybe there is another way of fooling the car. What if you can send the "superbrain" of the car a fake "ICE is running" command. Would that be simpler than anything else? I.e. highjack the status link and send an "ICE is running". Or would that play havoc into all other sorts of things?? Like going into parallell mode thinking the ICE is running when it is not

 

[JockeD]

Thanks elm

Well I have lost the WiFi passcode so I use the keyfob hack to start preheat, then restart after 10 min and then again.

Now, when you say possibly there is another sensor to be fooled, maybe there is another way of fooling the car. What if you can send the "superbrain" of the car a fake "ICE is running" command. Would that be simpler than anything else? I.e. highjack the status link and send an "ICE is running". Or would that play havoc into all other sorts of things?? Like going into parallell mode thinking the ICE is running when it is not

Hi all. First post on here as a short time lurker with a PHEV, hopefully, in the driveway in a couple of months. I'll be buying my brothers company car when his lease runs out in May (if the price turns out to be right).

I think Steepndeep's idea might be a good approach to this problem.
Here's maybe a tweak to it. How about looking at the conditions for -allowing- the ICE to start instead of the conditions that -want- to start it...
How about blocking one of those conditions, for example no fuel in the tank? If "we" are able to alter the reading from a temp sensor it could be just as easy to make the car think there is no petrol and I guess a start attempt wouldn't be allowed. VTech could perhaps sniff the CAN bus for the fuel messages and send his own (empty tank) once EV button is depressed.

I'll continue to read the forum until I get my hands on the car and then I'll probably start with all of the new gyu questions