You are correct in stating that negative feedback is useful to make improvements, but without positive feedback as well how do you know if your product or any improvements made are what the customer actually wants or needs?elm70 said:
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Idea to stop ICE from starting when cold
- Thread starter Steepndeep
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Perhaps the best is to make use of earlier inovation, and the knowledge for Vtech solution could be usefull.
Anko mention, that the Vtech tell the car it is 13C no matter temp in the car.
Looking at the sensor caracteristic, a resiatans of approx 7kOhm is OK.
Two possible setup:
- A switch that select either the original or a fixed 7kOhm might be the
- Setup simular that I got now, but add a fixed 25kOhm in line with the potmeter I got now, When turned to "zero", it wiil be close to the Vtech 13C. Turn to full when I want it back to normal. It will still be in parallell, but so high resistance that it make no practical difference.
Anko mention, that the Vtech tell the car it is 13C no matter temp in the car.
Looking at the sensor caracteristic, a resiatans of approx 7kOhm is OK.
Two possible setup:
- A switch that select either the original or a fixed 7kOhm might be the
- Setup simular that I got now, but add a fixed 25kOhm in line with the potmeter I got now, When turned to "zero", it wiil be close to the Vtech 13C. Turn to full when I want it back to normal. It will still be in parallell, but so high resistance that it make no practical difference.
anko
Well-known member
Sorry. What I said (or meant to say) is that the PHEVbox makes the car believe it is 13 deg C when it is really below 13 deg C.phevnor said:
The box measures voltage (or resistance?) between one pin of the sensor and ground. It does that every now and then, but only very quickly. Based on the voltage (or resistance?) measured, the box feeds back a small current to the same pin. The end result is that the car thinks it is 13 deg C when it is really 13 deg C or below. When it is 13 deg C or above, no current is fed back to the pin.
anko
Well-known member
Well, 13 deg C should be enough when ECO mode is selected. In NORMAL mode, the ICE will come in quicker, so it must be a few degrees higher.phevnor said:
Made some calculations.anko said:
If I set the potmeter I got now, to 10kOhm, the car will be told it is 13 down to -5.
Problem is that it will belive it is 20 in the car when it is "frezzing " zero. This can be fixed with resistor in series with the original that lift the caracterisitic
But I think the best will be to set it up so I either have a original setup (No manipulation), and a fixed resistance that is sett to 18C for manipulation. Just as thought of in the first post of this thread.
The heather can be set at 20. At start tell the car it is 18C. Hopefully it will heat only with electrisity. When it is warm enough, switch to original setting,, and the system start to regulate.
Link to calculations: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-4DYUkKtcz_ecz1Yt8LOJjFFl5jbiR0D-Yq1IXirX-g
anko
Well-known member
Ideally, it should be in the modified setting by default on start-up :idea:
anko said:
How do you know this ?
If the Vtech box every time and then release the "voltage" control (Vtech box is just attached to 1 single "pin") .. then the car can read this value, notice that temperature is too low and start the ICE
It would have been a more easy approach to invest few "cents" for have a temperature sensor in the PHEV box, and release the "controlled" voltage only when the module detect a sensible increase of temperature
The Vtech approach using 1 single pin of attachment .. can only read or impose a voltage .. not doing both .. and this does sound a big risk on starting ICE (since it is unknown if the car firmware does read average temperate, make filter and which filter time frame they may use)
Ideal solution for me is what is doing phevnor ... a simple switch that force the car to either read the real temperature or a fix read to 13 (13 to 15 sound ok too) ...
anko
Well-known member
Directly from the source. He told me when he visited me in the Netherlands, last year.elm70 said:
Like I said, it measures very very short. To short for the car to respond. I can imagine an artificial delay is applied anyway, as you don't want the temp reading to bounce up and down with every brush of air ... Either way, it seems not to be an issue.elm70 said:
How do you know this? :roll:elm70 said:
Why would you prefer a manual switch over an automatic switch? Does not make sense to me.elm70 said:
anko said:
Why is better to have a sensor in the BOX ? Simply because a temperature sensor cost less then 1 USD, and because there is no more need to read the car temperature sensor while it need to be "hacked" ... release the voltage control only for a fraction of second it can cause to start the ICE .. anyhow .. it is not a nice "design" to have a sensor in the car that periodically jump for a fraction of second to a different value
And YES ... I prefer a switch integrated on the board .. then not a floating cable with a patch
Aesthetically is better, and from functional it is even better too ... more reliable to put a fix resistance via a switch then have a circuit that modulate a voltage (which is never a perfect signal, due to the digital modulation involved on it)
If I get confident on removing the "plastic" cover like "phevnor" did .. then is very easy to place a little switch and a fix resistor (but not in parallel to the sensor .. just a switch that route either internal sensor or the fix resistor .
anko
Well-known member
A dollar that he didn't have to spent now. I think what he did was very smart. It seems to me you are making up problems that do not exist, in order to justify an alternative setup.elm70 said:
Can you tell me how you will know when to flip the switch? To soon and the ICE will come in. To late and the cabin temperature will rise more than you requested for.
I agree with you on the aesthetic aspect. Although, in reality I don't really notice the wire at all. It is very subtle.
Personally, I am anxious to see what the thread may deliver. But until it does, I like Vtech's existing solution better than any other non existing solution :mrgreen:
anko said:
How I know when to flip the switch ?
Very simple .. in my case my car has a voltage sensor and temperature sensor on the 12V plug .. so .. I know what is the cabin temperature all the time
But even without it ... there is a car temperature on the dash (yes it is an external temp), but still it give an idea .. so .. if I want to heat up the car .. I just flip the switch .. and I know that eHeating will work .. when I'm happy with cabin temperature .. I may switch back or possibly even switch off the heating ... anyhow I'm in control .. KISS approach .. that always works "better"
PS: I will never be able to thank enough "phevnor" .. his photos and his details are excellent material for get a simple solution for one of the most annoying problem in this PHEV
anko
Well-known member
You've lost me. I thought the switch was to choose between a manipulated reading and a non-manipulated reading? Not for choosing between heating / not heating. The car already has a switch for the latter ...
You live in Poland, where it gets very cold. I don't see how knowing the exterior temperature could be in anyway helpful ....
You live in Poland, where it gets very cold. I don't see how knowing the exterior temperature could be in anyway helpful ....
anko said:
No .. the switch is for select either the "internal sensor" , or the "fix resistance, that is equivalent to 13 or 14 deg)
About knowing the external temperature ... maybe it is is not much relevant either .. still normal situation is people enter in a car that has been left unused .. and the cabin temperature is same as external temperature (unless the car is moved outside from the garage, but still it is in the garage, the garage temperature and cabin temperature is the one shown in the dash) .. unless it is very sunny (but sunny and cold winter don't combine very often)
Anyhow .. the logic for flip the switch is quite simple:
Cabin is cold, and it is need to heat up without ICE .. solution .. flip the switch and then start the car.
If people want to read temperature first from dash .. car need to be set with ventilation off before switch off the car (or with temp set to 15deg)
When cabin is feeling hot enough .. then either the heating system can be switch off .. or the added switch can be made back in normal position so car read the real cabin temperature
Yes .. it does imply manual control .. but is 100% reliable for my point f view .. or it is as reliable as it can be by just hacking the internal temperature sensor
Only "constrain" .. is to have the guts for remove one panel from the central console in the car .. that if done badly can cause annoying marks or an expensive bill at the car service
anko
Well-known member
Rather than depending on your sense for temperature and you not forgetting to flip the switch in time, would it not be much easier if the solution did this for you. I mean, if you forget, the heater will keep going and going at full power, even when it is not needed. And it the end it will overshoot the set target.elm70 said:
Just to make sure, I would be very happy with any working solution, even if it involved a manual switch. But I think it would be much more convenient if it was automated. Like the one in the Vtech box.
The main problem with the Vtech box is that the box is set up for ECO mode (13 deg C). And before you get a chance to select ECO mode, the damage is already done. I've asked Vtech tuning several times to provide me with a firmware update that is set up for 17 deg C, but until now, he has not delivered.
anko said:
Manual control = possible to make human mistake .. I'm fine with it
About an automatic solution .. the switch could be operated automatically ... it will need a relay instead of a switch, a little CPU and a temperature sensor ... building cost less then 10 USD .. but soldering and coding time to be added in the picture.
PS: About vtech box ... for what it cost ... I should have bought long time ago .. but I don't like the "lack of info" .. and the fact that he had a much better solution, and he never made it available
... still as a non customer ... I have less right to demand anything from himPPS: About firmware update on vetch box for ECO/NORMAL mode .. maybe by firmware it is not possible to control the voltage to be imposed for overwrite the car temperature sensor .. a proper digital voltage regulator is not "cheap" to be implemented .. so he may have gone for a workaround.
anko
Well-known member
Well, he told me he had already tested with different settings, but was not happy the results.
I believe the limited results may be related to other factors than just 'cabin temperature'. Like I said earlier, I have a feeling that at some point, heater fluid temp comes in play too.
IO am curious to learn what comes out of this thread to find out if a higher manipulation makes the solution better: currently I can use the heater without ICE. In the future I would like to be able to leave the heater on set to 20 deg C or so.
Interesting though: Earlier you said it would have been very easy for Vtech to add additional sensor and such. Now, all of a sudden it appears to be rather complex. How does that work? :?
I believe the limited results may be related to other factors than just 'cabin temperature'. Like I said earlier, I have a feeling that at some point, heater fluid temp comes in play too.
IO am curious to learn what comes out of this thread to find out if a higher manipulation makes the solution better: currently I can use the heater without ICE. In the future I would like to be able to leave the heater on set to 20 deg C or so.
Interesting though: Earlier you said it would have been very easy for Vtech to add additional sensor and such. Now, all of a sudden it appears to be rather complex. How does that work? :?
anko said:Interesting though: Earlier you said it would have been very easy for Vtech to add additional sensor and such. Now, all of a sudden it appears to be rather complex. How does that work? :?
You are mixing two different thing:
- Sensing
- Control the voltage
anko
Well-known member
elm70 said:
In both cases, we are talking about adding a temperature sensor, right? Yeah, plus a relay instead of a switch. But a CPU?elm70 said:
anko said:
I think you are more focus on find anything wrong in my posts, then really trying to see what I'm trying to "communicate"
Back to the vtech box ... I'm not sure his solution is the cheapest ... he need to switch on the same "pin" either to sense a voltage or to apply a voltage regulator ... instead of using a temperature sensor (which in quantity may cost just few cents, since it cost me less then 1 USD shipped from ebay)
Anyhow ... what vtech does in his box ... is a different story
About the 10 USD automated switch ... yes possibly there is no need for a CPU (as CPU I mean an arduino mini board that cost 2 USD), possibly an Op Amps together with a relay could do the same without the need of any coding .. ... anyhow .. it is not complex .. and is not even expensive to be made ... but compared to 1USD switch plus 1 resistor and few cabling ... the relative complexity difference is quite "high".
And as said .. KISS ... Keep It Stupid and Simple ... is normally the best way to make things reliable ... so ... in my case have this "manual" switch would be the best option ... maybe I should think about buying the cheap plastic tools for open the console and give it a try ...
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