Anticipated Fuel Economy

[AC2]

I am considering purchasing an Outlander, I've had a test drive and liked it.
My 2 concerns are mpg and battery longevity.

I have a Toyota RAV4 diesel AWD and when at work was doing 30,000 + miles per year, now retired last year did 5000 miles.

1) On a long run the RAV4 does 60mpg, now my local journeys about 40.

I don't think a diesel is right for me anymore (concerned about clogging the DPF) so looking at petrol hybrid. RAV4 hybrid very poor economy and Kia Niro a bit small so thinking of the Outlander.

I think my driving profile should suit this car, 4 x 10m per wk, 1 x 20m per wk, several <5m per wk, 1 x 50m per wk (in summer), 4 x 60m per year so I would hope to get at least 50 mpg average with a light touch on the throttle? (keeping battery charged at home)

2) I fly electric model planes and some of my lithium polymer batteries have developed reduced capacity after a couple of years is anyone seeing this happen on the Outlander ?

Thanks


Chris

 

[HHL]

I am considering purchasing an Outlander, I've had a test drive and liked it.
My 2 concerns are mpg and battery longevity.

I have a Toyota RAV4 diesel AWD and when at work was doing 30,000 + miles per year, now retired last year did 5000 miles.

1) On a long run the RAV4 does 60mpg, now my local journeys about 40.

I don't think a diesel is right for me anymore (concerned about clogging the DPF) so looking at petrol hybrid. RAV4 hybrid very poor economy and Kia Niro a bit small so thinking of the Outlander.

I think my driving profile should suit this car, 4 x 10m per wk, 1 x 20m per wk, several <5m per wk, 1 x 50m per wk (in summer), 4 x 60m per year so I would hope to get at least 50 mpg average with a light touch on the throttle? (keeping battery charged at home)

2) I fly electric model planes and some of my lithium polymer batteries have developed reduced capacity after a couple of years is anyone seeing this happen on the Outlander ?

Thanks


Chris

Sounds like you're the ideal user for this type of car. Had mine for over year and have not noticed any battery degradation and that seems to be the experience with most owners. Running as a hybrid you can expect around 8l/100km (35mpg).
Found this the other day on the web, similar car, looks quite encouraging:
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/03/15/2012-chevy-volt-passes-300k-miles-owner-says-no-difference-in-battery-since-the-day-i-bought-it/

 

[Stvtech]

2) I fly electric model planes and some of my lithium polymer batteries have developed reduced capacity after a couple of years is anyone seeing this?

You aren’t going to get much above 34mpg on a long motorway run at the legal limit, but running up to 20 mile round trips wouldn’t use any fuel at all so you would be quids in.

Today, as an example, I did about 40 miles total of local driving and hit save mode after about 4 miles.
the car returned 42.5 mpg

In regards to battery capacity, we’re not driving round on a boatload of cheap Turnigy LiPo’s that barely last a season. I don’t think you need to worry. Cell balancing is well taken care of, and the car when new holds 30% capacity back to allow for longevity.

You will no doubt be no stranger to the difference in performance and capacity retention between a cheap chinese Lipo and some of the Lipo’s of old which were engineered to a higher standard.
I have a 4-year old 2200 3S 20C ‘own brand’ Lipo that even today will outperform a brand new Turnigy 25C of the same capacity.

I suggest you watch a video on YouTube by Robert Lewellyn who makes the case for leasing an electric vehicle. In it, he references a Nissan Leaf that has been used as a taxi for 150,000 miles and still has 90% battery capacity! (facts given at 11:00 into the video!!) The channel also has some very interesting works - I found the podpoint video extremely informative (also linked below).

https://youtu.be/0OhIHW3oWpA

https://youtu.be/J6KUYzv031M

 

[anko]

I am (a bit) less optimistic about battery endurance. Mine went from 38.4 Ah new to 30.6 Ah after 3 years and 60000 miles. This is more than 20% degradation. I think my case is on the extreme side of the spectrum, but on the Dutch forum there are several members that report 32 Ah or less.

On the bright sight, I don't see to much degradation in range, even though the amount of kWh per full charge cycle is indeed going down. And range is far more important than degradation in Ah.

 

[HHL]

I am (a bit) less optimistic about battery endurance. Mine went from 38.4 Ah new to 30.6 Ah after 3 years and 60000 miles. This is more than 20% degradation. I think my case is on the extreme side of the spectrum, but on the Dutch forum there are several members that report 32 Ah or less.

On the bright sight, I don't see to much degradation in range, even though the amount of kWh per full charge cycle is indeed going down. And range is far more important than degradation in Ah.

Have you recently measured what actually goes in when you do a full charge from say 1 or no bars on the display?

 

[anko]

Last night, it was 8.08 kWh from very, very empty to full. This includes losses in the approx. 15 meter cable between the main switch board (is that what you call where your main meter is?) and the charger.

At work (public 16 A charger), I tend to stay below 8 kWh these days. And I really make an effort to arrive as empty as possible. Usually I manage between 28 and 30 %.

 

[HHL]

Last night, it was 8.08 kWh from very, very empty to full. This includes losses in the approx. 15 meter cable between the main switch board (is that what you call where your main meter is?) and the charger.

At work (public 16 A charger), I tend to stay below 8 kWh these days. And I really make an effort to arrive as empty as possible. Usually I manage between 28 and 30 %.

Do you use the MMCS reported input or an external power meter?
I use both, the external meter usually reports a bit more, yesterday it indicated 9.2kWh vs 9 by the MMCS. This difference (about 200-300Wh) is quite consistent on full charges. I don't know if the MMCS measures input to the battery or what comes in from the mains power. So, not sure if the charger losses are taken into account.
I have also noticed when there is no bar showing the SOC is actually 25% according to EVBATMON.
I doubt whether the BMS can keep track of the battery with complete accuracy, after all, there are chemical processes involved and just measuring what goes in and out is not the whole story. Time will tell!

 

[AC2]

Firstly I definitely appreciate your replies.

You have reduced my fears of a high level battery degredation.

I am sure the battery quality is greater than the ones used in RC planes (although I have some early Thunder Power cells that are still going strong after 5 years whereas some of my Hyperion cells are flagging after a much shorter time)

Since retiring I rarely drive on motorways and as previously described my journeys are now lots of small(ish) ones.

I was offered what I thought a good deal on pre-reg G3H+ but the just couldn't go ahead until I felt more sure - maybe after christmas !!!

Thanks for the links, I will watch the videos however I have seen Roberts L's review on Fullycharged and although he got good mpg on his run to Bristol(?) he did fast charge twice which must have cost £12.00?


Thanks


Chris

 

[anko]

Do you use the MMCS reported input or an external power meter?

Well ....

This includes losses in the approx. 15 meter cable between the main switch board (is that what you call where your main meter is?) and the charger.

:idea:

I use both, the external meter usually reports a bit more, yesterday it indicated 9.2kWh vs 9 by the MMCS. This difference (about 200-300Wh) is quite consistent on full charges.

This includes losses in the approx. 15 meter cable between the main switch board (is that what you call where your main meter is?) and the charger.

;-)

I have also noticed when there is no bar showing the SOC is actually 25% according to EVBATMON.

You sure? I am pretty sure I've seen 0 bars much more often than I have seen 25%. It requires serious attempts to get as low as 25% (towing, climbing, being in a hurry, etc.). Usually, I do not get to this point during normal day-to-day driving. Yet, I see 0 bars often enough.

 

[maby]

Firstly I definitely appreciate your replies.

You have reduced my fears of a high level battery degredation.

I am sure the battery quality is greater than the ones used in RC planes (although I have some early Thunder Power cells that are still going strong after 5 years whereas some of my Hyperion cells are flagging after a much shorter time)

Since retiring I rarely drive on motorways and as previously described my journeys are now lots of small(ish) ones.

I was offered what I thought a good deal on pre-reg G3H+ but the just couldn't go ahead until I felt more sure - maybe after christmas !!!

Thanks for the links, I will watch the videos however I have seen Roberts L's review on Fullycharged and although he got good mpg on his run to Bristol(?) he did fast charge twice which must have cost £12.00?


Thanks


Chris

I think there will be a secondhand market for Outlanders even with significant battery degradation provided they don't actually fail. Lexus manage to sell plenty of RX450h cars despite the fact that they, even new, only perform like an Outlander with a half charged battery - about 54mpg claimed. Provided the Outlander battery packs do not actually fail, the car will degrade towards the RX450h as it ages - the battery capacity could fall well below 10kWh and it would still compare with the Lexus.

Purchasers of new Outlander PHEVs tend to be looking at pure EV mode on short range journeys. Assuming that the car is still working at seven or eight years old but with a significantly reduced EV range, then the second hand market will be focusing on the hybrid aspects and viewing it as a mid range petrol SUV able to average 40-odd mpg over longer distances.

 

[Stvtech]

Thanks for the links, I will watch the videos however I have seen Roberts L's review on Fullycharged and although he got good mpg on his run to Bristol(?) he did fast charge twice which must have cost £12.00?

The only review I am aware of that Robert did on the Outlander was two years ago, when motorway charging was free.
The Oultlander is unique amongst plug-in hybrids in that it can accept rapid charging, and this has caused a few issues with pure EV drivers that arrive at a charge point only to find an Outlander in place already.

Ecotricity, who provide the Motorway chargers, have introduced charging in part to prevent Outlanders from causing delays to EV owners (primarily Leaf) who do not have the option of simply dropping some petrol into a tank.
Given that Nissan played a large role in funding the Ecotricity network, I suspect there was a certain amount of lobbying going on by Leaf drivers to price Outlanders away from the 'pumps' (as the chargers are referred to) and that seems to have been successful.
A £6 charge for a pure EV goes way way further than it ever could in an Outlander.

Again, linked below for those interested.

https://youtu.be/momt5L-hPxQ

 

[Muddywheels]

I know an RX450h owner and he's averaging 35 mpg which is why I discounted it and went for the phev

I'm not worried about battery degradation with an 8 year warranty it won't be my problem

 

[anko]

I'm not worried about battery degradation with an 8 year warranty it won't be my problem

Why do you think degradation is covered by warranty? I think only 'real' failures are. IMHO, nobody has come up with prove that suggests otherwise.

 

[Muddywheels]

I only plucked up the courage to buy the phev because of the 5 year/8 year warranty and if I have issues with batteries and told they're not covered by warranty this will be my first and last Mitsubishi

Having owned 3 LR lemons in the last 7 years and heard every excuse under the sun I have run out of patience

 

[anko]

Well, it is not just Mitsubishi .... Some do guarantee a certain minimum value, but these are not the minimum values you would be hoping for:

 

[maby]

I thought that someone here (jaapv?) had posted a message which claimed to give the maximum degradation that Mitsubishi would consider "normal wear and tear" for the purposes of the warranty?

 

[Muddywheels]

I went to 2 dealers for test drives and figures before I bought the phev - both stressed the fantastic warranty and specifically that the batteries were guaranteed for 8 years - nobody mentioned degradation excluded. I have not seen anything on the website to make me aware of this either

If you are correct then they are misleading buyers and my first contact would be trading standards followed by rejection of the phev and moving on to something else

Anyway for now I intend to enjoy my phev and not worry about what might happen as I try to forget what did happen with my previous vehicles - looking for problems is the quickest way to spoil your enjoyment of anything

I may have to stop reading this forum if people keep posting possible problems rather than actual :lol:

 

[anko]

If you are correct then they are misleading buyers and my first contact would be trading standards followed by rejection of the phev and moving on to something else

Are brake pads covered under warranty? I am pretty sure they are. And yet they will need to be replaced at some point in time ... at your expense.

I may have to stop reading this forum if people keep posting possible problems rather than actual :lol:

Sorry for that ... :lol:

 

[maby]

Well, some degree of degradation is inevitable - cars come with a warranty that covers the petrol engine and if, within the warranty period, it starts to consume multiple litres of oil between services, you could reasonably expect a major engine repair without having to pay. If, on the other hand, it is consuming a teaspoon of oil per thousand miles, you are unlikely to get them to take it seriously. The same is true of the battery. It's amazing that they make them last as long as they do - my four year old phone is on its second battery already.

 

[Muddywheels]

Brake pads are an expected consumable as is the starter battery and tyres but the cost is negligible and I haven't replaced any of these due to wear since I started buying new/nearly new about 25 years ago :mrgreen:

The drive batteries/motors are as crucial as the engine and probably cost nearly as much (unlike a phone battery) - I wouldn't expect to fork out £1000s to replace them if I'm told they're guaranteed for 8 years or I will feel conned :evil:

Used values of phev appear weak and I'm regularly asked about battery life by people - I'm convinced the 2 are related and main things likely to prevent me buying another next time if they affect me :?

I haven't found a post about replacing batteries and cost so for now I'm cautiously optimistic with my purchase despite the cold weather EV range/mpg plummet - might need to drive down and spend winters in Algarve in future though