Do not be scared of using that charge button.

[Fjpod]

Just read this whole thread trying to get a grip on the best way to reduce gasoline consumption on long trips. It's been over a year since anyone contributed. Don't mean to criticize here guys, but most people are all over the place with anecdotal evidence... And I guess I will add to it...

I tried using Charge recently on a long trip, my instantaneous mpg went down. It's hard to imagine how this is better for reducing gasoline consumption. Listening to everyone giving their experiences... Uphill .. downhill... How is one supposed to enjoy the drive?

It would seem to me the only time it pays to use Charge would be near the end of a long highway trip to ensure you have enough drive battery to get through whatever slow town driving you need to get to your destination.
... And maybe near top speed, if the ice is not laboring heavily, you might try to siphon off some revolutions to send to the battery.

Fwiw.

You're totally missing the point of how the PHEV works - it needs a certain amount of energy to get from A to B and it has to get that energy from the ICE once the battery is empty. On any journey that would empty the battery, the PHEV will run in what is effectively Charge mode to top up the battery until the range has increases a mile or so and then run in EV till the range has dropped down. With Save pressed, it does the same except around the higher EV range. So it has to run in Charge far more than 50% of the time whatever you do, and it cycles through this hysteresis loop until the end of the journey regardless of how or where you're driving. So saying that pressing Charge increases fuel consumption is meaningless. Of course it increases consumption, but how is the PHEV to get energy to move otherwise?

What you can do is influence when the PHEV is using EV or charging from the ICE. So running Charge for longer than the usual 1-mile increase in range will allow you to use EV for longer. So you can choose to run EV in town and Charge on faster roads, which is environmentally more friendly and some believe may be more fuel-efficient. But you can't alter the fact that the PHEV needs to run the ICE whatever you do.

I think you missed the point of my post. I know the Phev manages the relationship between charging and saving, and that the buttons allow you to alter that relationship a bit, and if you read the last two assertions of my post, I said the same thing you did in fewer words.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

I tried using Charge recently on a long trip, my instantaneous mpg went down. It's hard to imagine how this is better for reducing gasoline consumption.

Either you understand how the PHEV works, or you find "It's hard to imagine how this is better for reducing gasoline consumption". You can't think both. My post was responding to that assertion.

 

[nkane]

Please pardon the thread revival, all. I've owned my MY20 for about 10 days now but haven't had the opportunity to drive farther than the battery range. But soon I will drive to the mountains and after reading this very helpful thread, I wanted to put my scenario past the great minds here and see what you think the optimal strategy is.

My priorities for the drive are twofold: 1. maintain enough SOC for the big climbs to have adequate acceleration to pass trucks. 2. reduce overall fuel consumption.

Here we go: from Berkeley, CA to Lake Tahoe is 203 miles.

• The first ~60 miles is freeway driving, but with frequent patches of stop-and-go traffic as you get through Bay Area rush hour.
• Then you have about 50 miles of flat, open freeway from Davis to the Sierra foothills where traffic generally averages 75-80mph.
• From Auburn to Donner Pass is the business: over 60 miles, you gain 7000 feet from the fertile Central Valley up to the crest of the Sierra Nevada at Donner Summit. Over that climb, your vertical gain is more like 9000 feet with 2000' of descending.
• From Donner Summit you descend 2000' to Truckee over 8ish miles and then take surface streets a few miles to your destination.
• At the end of the weekend, I'll reverse this and head home.

Here's a map: https://goo.gl/maps/ayJC2bkEgkbhPNVa6 You can change to bike directions to get a sense of the elevation profile.


After reading through the thread, it seems like the optimal sequence is this:

• Use EV Mode to keep the ICE off for the first mile from my house to the freeway.
• Then go into Normal mode and let the car manage itself until Davis.
• At that point, press Charge to refill the battery, hoping that it gets up to its highest possible charge before the big climb.
• Keep the car in Charge while climbing, except turning it off and using Regen during downhills (such as the big downhill at Emigrant Gap).
• Go back to normal mode at Donner Summit and let the car manage itself for the rest of the drive.
• assuming I can't charge while in Tahoe, drive around in Charge mode during the weekend to accumulate SOC for the climb back up Donner Summit on the way home.
• once headed back down the mountains, resume Normal mode for most of the drive home.
• hit Charge again when 10 or 20 miles from home to get enough SOC to take me the last mile in EV mode.

Does that sound right? Anyone have suggestions for further refinements on the plan? For instance, I imagine that I'll build up some decent SOC on the descent out of the mountains. Does it make more sense to preserve that charge for later by hitting Save?

 

[mellobob]

Sounds overly complicated. When we go on a hwy trip I let the battery drop to around 80% then I flick on <save>. If I know that the end of the trip is close, I switch off <save> in time to drain the battery before getting home where I can charge again. Despite what others may say around here, the PHEV does a pretty good job of managing the battery.

 

[Fjpod]

I have found that the strategy of using the Charge button really decreases mpg. I would only do this if you anticipate significant stop and go driving at future points in your journey.

I find a better strategy is to use the Save button to reserve battery power for upcoming stop and go traffic. If you run out of battery... You run out. The car will still perform admirably. You will still be able to climb a hill or pass a truck with relative ease. The electric motors will still contribute to your total power. Don't waste your battery on tough hill climbs, or 30 second truck passes. Use your battery to maintain speed on long, level patches of road where you have momentum, or when slightly declining in altitude.

As far as going uphill and passing, the ICE is more efficient. Use it for short bursts. All you have to do is press harder on the pedal. You will preserve your battery for more efficient use later. Don't be overly consumed by the buttons. Let the cars computer manage things.

One of your goals should be to get to your next charging point, or home, with no charge left.

 

[jaapv]

However, if you anticipate significant use of battery power for longer periods, like long climbs in the mountain or sustained high speed motorway driving, or entering an ECO zone, it is useful to keep the battery as well charged as you can. Another use is to anticipate fast acceleration. The charge button will eliminate the hesitation the car exhibits when it needs to start the ICE for full power.

 

[Tai626]

We have a couple of Californian with Outlander driving up and down the looong pass (Cajon/Tejon).

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4842

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4624&p=51612&hilit=Cajon+pass#p51612

STS has been going up hill at 90mph full length 10mi without any issue if the batteries are 80% full, I think. The only issue was the CHP

Going down hill it is better to have batteries empty for safety and harvest the regen. If you go 90 mph down hill, there is not many energy to regen because of the aerodynamic of SUV.

These are the realistic scenarios of how we usually drive here is California. If you drive around 75mph and keep batteries at 50% all the time using charge mode, you should be fine.

Another thing we find out is the gas tank capacity: 13.5+ gallons. The last 2 gal. takes more than 5min to fill up but totally worth the time in a long trip

Tai

 

[jaapv]

Actually, by mountain driving I did not mean blasting up motorways through the mountains @ 90 mph. I mean long, steep roads with hairpins which will make you happy to average 20 mph, like for instance the Passo di Stelvio, or the Col de Iseran.

(Wikipedia)

 

[mellobob]

I know drivers who would attempt to do that hill at 90

 

[jaapv]

I already met one of those... In 2011, on that very mountain...


View attachment crash.jpg

 

[ThudnBlundr]

I have found that the strategy of using the Charge button really decreases mpg. I would only do this if you anticipate significant stop and go driving at future points in your journey.

I find that very hard to believe. If you're doing a trip out of EV range, the car has to use the ICE to provide energy for the journey. Whether you use the ICE to charge by pressing Charge, by pressing Save, or even by leaving it to manage itself, it will still have to run the ICE for the same amount to provide the same amount of energy. The whole point of this thread is that Charge mode runs the ICE no differently to Save or leaving it alone - it merely changes when the ICE is running, not how much. The only reasons that using Charge might be less efficient is is you run it to 80% (as charging gets less efficient after 60%) or if you fail to arrive with an empty battery.

 

[Fjpod]

I have found that the strategy of using the Charge button really decreases mpg. I would only do this if you anticipate significant stop and go driving at future points in your journey.

I find that very hard to believe. If you're doing a trip out of EV range, the car has to use the ICE to provide energy for the journey. Whether you use the ICE to charge by pressing Charge, by pressing Save, or even by leaving it to manage itself, it will still have to run the ICE for the same amount to provide the same amount of energy. The whole point of this thread is that Charge mode runs the ICE no differently to Save or leaving it alone - it merely changes when the ICE is running, not how much. The only reasons that using Charge might be less efficient is is you run it to 80% (as charging gets less efficient after 60%) or if you fail to arrive with an empty battery.

I'm not so sure that what you say is correct. If you hook up an instant MPG calculating device through your OBDII, When the ICE runs to recharge the battery, the instant mpg reading is significantly higher than when the ICE powers the wheels.

I am suggesting that unless you are going to encounter significant stop and go driving, or as someone else pointed out, significant uphill driving under heavy load, you might as well let the Hybrid Battery Management System regulate how it wants to use the ICE.

 

[kpetrov]

I have found that the strategy of using the Charge button really decreases mpg. I would only do this if you anticipate significant stop and go driving at future points in your journey.

I find that very hard to believe. If you're doing a trip out of EV range, the car has to use the ICE to provide energy for the journey. Whether you use the ICE to charge by pressing Charge, by pressing Save, or even by leaving it to manage itself, it will still have to run the ICE for the same amount to provide the same amount of energy. The whole point of this thread is that Charge mode runs the ICE no differently to Save or leaving it alone - it merely changes when the ICE is running, not how much. The only reasons that using Charge might be less efficient is is you run it to 80% (as charging gets less efficient after 60%) or if you fail to arrive with an empty battery.

I'm not so sure that what you say is correct. If you hook up an instant MPG calculating device through your OBDII, When the ICE runs to recharge the battery, the instant mpg reading is significantly higher than when the ICE powers the wheels.

I am suggesting that unless you are going to encounter significant stop and go driving, or as someone else pointed out, significant uphill driving under heavy load, you might as well let the Hybrid Battery Management System regulate how it wants to use the ICE.

If you arrive with an empty battery like ThudnBlundr said it should be the same.
If we leave on the side the fact that during CHARGE the ICE run in parallel mode if possible and in parallel the engine output will be used more efficiently the only variable left in the equation will be is constant CHARGEing for X minutes more or less efficient than intermittent SAVE charging for the same X (total) minutes.
I believe and it's logical that constant charging will be more efficient than intermittent charging from mechanical point of view.
If intermittent charging is more efficient for the battery the opposite may be truth.

 

[nkane]

Actually, by mountain driving I did not mean blasting up motorways through the mountains @ 90 mph. I mean long, steep roads with hairpins which will make you happy to average 20 mph, like for instance the Passo di Stelvio, or the Col de Iseran.

(Wikipedia)

Yes, yes, we have our twisty roads too here in California. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCIDEydyA9uwCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAJ

Thanks for the link to the Grapevine thread, Tai. After reading that it sounds like there are good reasons to begin big climbs with a full battery, no matter which method you use to fill the battery up. I'll report back in a few weeks with my experiences!

 

[ThudnBlundr]

I'm not so sure that what you say is correct. If you hook up an instant MPG calculating device through your OBDII, When the ICE runs to recharge the battery, the instant mpg reading is significantly higher than when the ICE powers the wheels.

I am suggesting that unless you are going to encounter significant stop and go driving, or as someone else pointed out, significant uphill driving under heavy load, you might as well let the Hybrid Battery Management System regulate how it wants to use the ICE.

You also get significantly higher instantaneous MPG when you drive uphill or when you accelerate, so by your logic you should avoid doing those as well. But instantaneous MPG is not what matters; we're more interested in overall MPG for a journey. And people on here have proved that using Charge for longer than the default actually improves MPG on a long journey. Not by much, but it certainly proves that using Charge doesn't increase your overall MPG for the same trip

 

[nkane]

So here's my report after my first big mountain road trip in the Outlander PHEV.

We loaded up with 2 adults, 1 baby, a roof box, and skiing and climbing gear and headed from the Bay to Mammoth for a long weekend. A few takeaways:

• We got turtled twice:
• once heading north on 395 going up to Sherwin Summit, a gain of about 3000' in 8 miles. The guessometer showed 4 miles at the start of the climb, went to 0 within a few hundred yards, and then I got shown the Turtle towards the top of the climb when I tried to give it a little extra gas to pass someone. Nothing terrible happened, and we were able to continue at 60mph up to the top of the pass.
• the second time was heading north on 395 up Conway summit, a gain of about 2000' in 10 miles. Again the battery was fairly empty before heading up but I turned Charge on a few miles prior. Not long enough apparently as the Turtle appeared near the top of the pass.
• Maybe it's the fault of the roof box, but the "Save" button didn't do much saving. I turned it on heading east out of the Bay, thinking that it would preserve my charge for the grind up to Carson Pass (7500' gain in 61 miles) but the battery dropped and dropped even in the flatlands and eventually hit zero not far into the climb. I turned on Charge for the remainder of that climb and the Turtle stayed hidden. I suspect the slower speeds on 88 (45-55 mph speed limits as compared with 65 mph on 395) meant less wind resistance and thus more power available to charge the battery. Perhaps the more gradual climbing gave the battery more time to recover and stressed the system less, too.
• The roof box kills mileage. It hurts you going flat and uphill due to wind resistance at freeway speeds, and then takes away the momentum for your recharge on the downhills.
• Just as the title of this thread says, the Charge button ain't so bad. It didn't seem to kill my instant mileage as much as expected and produced enough power (when pressed with an hour lead time) to keep the Turtle at bay going up from Gardnerville to Echo Pass (including Luther Pass), a gain of 4000' over 30 miles.
  

Items for further investigation:

• Will I get turtled on similar terrain without the roof box?
• How long before a big climb should I turn on Charge to ensure sufficient SOC to reach the top?
• What's the best way to track mileage over a long trip? I keep a spreadsheet of gas refills, which showed that I got 25-27mpg, including charging 3 times in Mammoth. Not great. But the first tank included some pre-trip driving and the second didn't include the last portion of driving to get home. The stupid "trip" screen on the MMCS is terrible: the auto reset after 6 hours of the car being turned off means you don't get a full picture of mileage between charges, and it doesn't show you how many miles you actually got on EV power, just a percentage. You have to remember your starting mileage and do the math yourself. And if you manually reset, you lose the lifetime history for the car, which I think is valuable. This is either terrible design or I'm missing something important.
• Is it possible to know when you've braked hard enough that it reduces regen? I've been trying to use the paddle shifters on downhills to maximize regen and not use the disc brakes. But it's kind of an annoying way to drive and I'd rather just keep in B0 and use the brake pedal if I knew I wouldn't brake too hard.
  
  

 

[Fjpod]

What happens exactly when you get Turtled? Can you maintain 60 mph going uphill? Could you accelerate to 70 mph if you wanted to?

 

[littlescrote]

[*] Maybe it's the fault of the roof box, but the "Save" button didn't do much saving. I turned it on heading east out of the Bay, thinking that it would preserve my charge for the grind up to Carson Pass (7500' gain in 61 miles) but the battery dropped and dropped even in the flatlands and eventually hit zero not far into the climb. I turned on Charge for the remainder of that climb and the Turtle stayed hidden. I suspect the slower speeds on 88 (45-55 mph speed limits as compared with 65 mph on 395) meant less wind resistance and thus more power available to charge the battery. Perhaps the more gradual climbing gave the battery more time to recover and stressed the system less, too.

[*] Is it possible to know when you've braked hard enough that it reduces regen? I've been trying to use the paddle shifters on downhills to maximize regen and not use the disc brakes. But it's kind of an annoying way to drive and I'd rather just keep in B0 and use the brake pedal if I knew I wouldn't brake too hard.

I suspect that you thought you hit Save but actually didn't, otherwise the charge level would not have fallen significantly, roof box or not. I've done it myself. Either not pressed it, or pressed it twice.

Honestly, driving in B0 in hills is daft. It would be a lot easier to drive in B5 if you don't want to be changing B frequently. Then if you don't need the full deceleration that B5 gives, you just don't lift the gas pedal that far.

The only way to know if you are braking beyond the level of regen which will be lower in B0 than B5 by the way, is to keep your eye on the power gauge. It will drop into the blue on regen and when it drops no more but you are pressing the brake pedal more, then it's obvious that you are using the mechanical brakes which is not going to help with efficiency.

 

[nkane]

What happens exactly when you get Turtled? Can you maintain 60 mph going uphill? Could you accelerate to 70 mph if you wanted to?

I was able to maintain 60 mph uphilll, but no longer had the torque to accelerate hard. I don't think I could have gotten up to 70. Fortunately the Turtle showed up close to the top of each hill, but I didn't have time to do much experimentation.

 

[nkane]

I suspect that you thought you hit Save but actually didn't, otherwise the charge level would not have fallen significantly, roof box or not. I've done it myself. Either not pressed it, or pressed it twice.

I assure you that was not the case. The "SAVE" icon was lit on the dashboard the whole time. I double checked because the battery level kept dropping.

Honestly, driving in B0 in hills is daft. It would be a lot easier to drive in B5 if you don't want to be changing B frequently. Then if you don't need the full deceleration that B5 gives, you just don't lift the gas pedal that far.

I disagree here. Don't you want to be gliding downhill whenever you don't need to be actively slowing the car down? Say on a long straight downhill. You've already paid for the energy to get up the hill - if you regen too hard, you'll need to accelerate sooner. That's inefficient. And when you're topping a rise, you want to accelerate just enough to get you over, and then immediately start gliding downhill. it's much easier in B0 to just let off the gas than to precisely modulate the pedal in any other setting.

And in B0, you can give your calf muscle a rest for a minute when descending. That's nice on a long drive.

The only way to know if you are braking beyond the level of regen which will be lower in B0 than B5 by the way, is to keep your eye on the power gauge. It will drop into the blue on regen and when it drops no more but you are pressing the brake pedal more, then it's obvious that you are using the mechanical brakes which is not going to help with efficiency.

Thanks. That's what I figured but it's hard to watch the gauge while driving!