Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

[nrayanov]

See the first post in this thread.

See my other comments in this thread to get the whole picture.

 

[Hasenphever]

See the first post in this thread.

See my other comments in this thread to get the whole picture.

I did, and thanked you for those comments. You indicated you could provide more insight with the actual numbers. For ease of reference they are:
2023 Outlander ICE gets 7.9 litres per 100km, PHEV gets 8.7. (delta PHEV is +0.8 l/100km)
2023 Rav 4 ICE gets 6.9 litres per 100km , Rav 4 PHEV gets 6.4, (delta PHEV is -0.5 l/100km)

So far I've concluded that the presence of a transmission is more efficient in transferring power than the ICE acting as a generator for the battery and then transferring to the motor(s). The presence of a transmission also aids the RAV4 PHEV in the ability to go into parallel mode more often than the Outlander PHEV, widening the gap in the delta between PHEV and ICE on the respective platforms.

 

[malindarayy]

Congratulations, first of all, and I'm also new here, but after reading the responses, I know I have come to the right place. Everyone is supportive and shares their experience. Looking forward to gaining more knowledge here.

 

[nrayanov]

So far I've concluded that the presence of a transmission is more efficient in transferring power than the ICE acting as a generator for the battery and then transferring to the motor(s). The presence of a transmission also aids the RAV4 PHEV in the ability to go into parallel mode more often than the Outlander PHEV, widening the gap in the delta between PHEV and ICE on the respective platforms.

The focus of these vehicles is totally different. Hence the different fuel economy figures.

Toyota is electrifying a gas-powered vehicle by making it more sustainable.
Mitsubishi is building an electric vehicle with a gas-powered generator on board.

The Toyota RAV4 Prime is more efficient, it's also smaller and lighter, and well, faster from 0 to 100 km.
I'm worried Toyota might have issues with the RAV4 Prime batteries when they start aging if their consumers travel a lot with depleted batteries, because of the constant on and off of the ICE thanks to the eCVT. Not blaming the eCVT, I think it's a great concept, it's the batteries that need to improve and catch up.
I have tested the Toyota RAV4 Prime and liked it, apart from the fact it spins the front wheels when you press hard on the gas pedal. Its price and almost 2 years waiting list are what pulled me off. But it's over 300 horsepower and takes around 5 seconds to 100 km/h so that's part of the deal.

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (the new one) is more prominent, it's a seven-seater, has much better 4WD/AWD capabilities, and looks way more luxurious and premium inside than the industrial looks of the RAV4 Prime. The interior of the Outlander is quieter and the car's behavior is more predictable. It's a great family car. It's also a serious improvement compared to the last-generation Outlander PHEV.

In the end, it's up to the users. I think both cars are steps in the right direction.

One last thing to keep in mind, Mitsubishi are purposely putting worse fuel economy figures than the actuals because of their past history with issues where they reported economy features that were hard to achieve. There were lawsuits and serious fines, so they are making sure they won't get there again. Or, well, Nissan is making sure.

 

[Hasenphever]

The focus of these vehicles is totally different. Hence the different fuel economy figures.

Toyota is electrifying a gas-powered vehicle by making it more sustainable.
Mitsubishi is building an electric vehicle with a gas-powered generator on board.

Right, that is understood. However, hoping for the additional insight on why the Rav4 PHEV model to ICE model fuel economy is better than the Outlander PHEV model to ICE model. In particular why the Outlander PHEV fuel economy is worse than the ICE. This can't be solely based on history since they would be conservative across the board, both PHEV and non-PHEV models.

 

[Trex]

Right, that is understood. However, hoping for the additional insight on why the Rav4 PHEV model to ICE model fuel economy is better than the Outlander PHEV model to ICE model. In particular why the Outlander PHEV fuel economy is worse than the ICE. This can't be solely based on history since they would be conservative across the board, both PHEV and non-PHEV models.

Ok these figures that are being thrown around for the Outlander are not what we see in Australia.

8.1lts/100kms as per Mitsi's figures for standard Outlander compared to approx 6.7lts/100kms for the Phev as seen in this video on a trip from Adelaide to Melbourne of about 800kms) at 100-110kms/hr. See about 19.45 into video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqvl8Z8XeTU

Now some of that trip probably includes battery use but there is no way a standard Outlander here is more efficient than the Phev.

 

[mellobob]

I got our 2023 GT last week and had the pleasure of taking it for a nice trip with a total 300km travelled. The temp was a balmy -2C and we went over the 1775m Kootenay Pass .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kootenay_Pass . Due to the crap road conditions we never got to go much faster than 100km.

So, my overall impressions? It was a delight to drive! I toggled between SAVE and NORMAL and ended up running out of battery a few km from home. Overall I got 5.8 l/100km.

I'm pretty sure that I'd do much better on a "normal" stretch of road. Maybe the middle 5s? Mind you, I might drive faster in this case and that would bring the economy down. OTOH, 2 massive hill climbs are pretty expensive

I tried using the one-pedal mode and do like it. However, if you are going to use cruise I would suggest that you turn off the pedal mode before leaving it ... it's quite a shock to turn off cruise and have the car almost braking since your foot is not on the gas pedal

 

[AndyInOz]

5.8 kilometers per one hundred litres?

I assume that you're using a jet engine and took one fortieth of a second to get there!



PS. Best typo ever!

 

[djohan100]

The focus of these vehicles is totally different. Hence the different fuel economy figures.

Toyota is electrifying a gas-powered vehicle by making it more sustainable.
Mitsubishi is building an electric vehicle with a gas-powered generator on board.

Right, that is understood. However, hoping for the additional insight on why the Rav4 PHEV model to ICE model fuel economy is better than the Outlander PHEV model to ICE model. In particular why the Outlander PHEV fuel economy is worse than the ICE. This can't be solely based on history since they would be conservative across the board, both PHEV and non-PHEV models.

I read that the Outlander ICE use different engine that the Outlander PHEV, are we comparing Apple to Oranges then?
Outlander ICE engine is Nissan Rogue based, while the Outlander PHEV is derivative from the 2018 Outlander PHEV

 

[mellobob]

5.8 kilometers per one hundred litres?

I assume that you're using a jet engine and took one fortieth of a second to get there!



PS. Best typo ever!

Hey, fixed it My little brain was so excited that I made a mistake. Oh well ... at least I didn't try to convert that to stone and hundredweight to make it understandable for you folks down south

 

[littlescrote]

I tried using the one-pedal mode and do like it. However, if you are going to use cruise I would suggest that you turn off the pedal mode before leaving it ... it's quite a shock to turn off cruise and have the car almost braking since your foot is not on the gas pedal

Or you can hold your foot on the 'gas' pedal a bit when you are still on CC and then switch it off and blend out the pedal if desired.

 

[Tai626]

I think the ICE version has the gear that match the torque and rpm better than PHEV.

Engine BSFC map.

 

[kpetrov]

I think the ICE version has the gear that match the torque and rpm better than PHEV.

It is not clear what you want to say but PHEV version doesn't have a gear at all to match anything under 65km/h
It is a completely different architecture where an generator is linked to the ICE.

 

[Tai626]

The ICE version do have gears. For Highway speed, it best matches the map for efficiency.

The PHEV actually harvests the extra torque to charge battery and we know that it is not that efficient compared to parallel mode. And when the batteries are full, there is no more places to go…

The RAV4 Prime E-CVT also lost a significant efficiency at speed higher than 75mph. The Prius prime has the same mpg (30, maybe) as BMW at 100mph

Tai

 

[kpetrov]

The ICE version do have gears. For Highway speed, it best matches the map for efficiency.

The PHEV actually harvests the extra torque to charge battery and we know that it is not that efficient compared to parallel mode. And when the batteries are full, there is no more places to go…

The RAV4 Prime E-CVT also lost a significant efficiency at speed higher than 75mph. The Prius prime has the same mpg (30, maybe) as BMW at 100mph

Tai

Yes, the ICE version do have gears what you want to say exactly? How it matches better than PHEV when the PHEV doesn't even have one to match!?
If you want to say that on the highway ICE version can have slightly better efficiency, we all know that. We don't use this vehicle for it's highway efficiency though.

And when the batteries are full...
Well when the batteries are full you drive on electric power and don't use ICE at all.

 

[Tai626]

MY2018 cannot go EV if we drive above 78mph

Tai

 

[Hasenphever]

MY2018 cannot go EV if we drive above 78mph

Interesting. The 2023 PHEV certainly can and does switch to EV only at highway speeds. Even in Save mode and when running as a parallel hybrid, it does switch back and forth to 100% electric motors. So from a real-world experience, the distance covered in EV mode even at highway speeds counts as part of the highway fuel economy.

In practice though I suspect the economies are very similar, even for pre-2023 PHEV models that do not run in EV at highway speeds. Matching ratios to peak torque is more important for acceleration and less so when maintaining a highway speed for both ICE and PHEV, unless there are a lot of hills, then the ratios will help keep the motors in the power band but on the PHEV, the EV motors will provide the needed extra torque instantly so a more efficient gear ratio for the third fuel motor isn't necessary. For models that do not run in EV at highway speeds, gear ratios can certainly help when torque varies quickly on a highway such as hills. But it's a trade-off I'm willing to make to gain the other advantages of the PHEV system.

 

[Tai626]

When they finally upgraded the engine to 2.4L in the USA, the EV limit went up to 82mph, I think.
And Atkinson cycle also switch to Otto cycle around this speed.

Just wondering MY2023 what is the EV max speed?

Tai

 

[Lon12]

Looks like 180 km/h is max speed.

Really good video of the new PHEV performance:
https://youtu.be/O5o0EAujvdc

 

[Tai626]

Thank you for the video!

The max EV speed is 140km/h or 87.5mph

Tai