Potential used buyer - battery life concerns

[Carl27]

Hi folks,

Been pondering the Outlander for a few months now. Like everything about the vehicle so going to get a test drive sorted.

My only concern is of buying a used Outlander - will the life of the battery have deteriorated at all in the 2-3 years the vehicle has been used?
I obviously don't want to buy one and then a year later need to replace the batteries in the vehicle!

Thanks all!

 

[elm70]

Battery degradation status is not as important as on a pure EV

For instance if you daily trips are under under 25km (without charging ... is you can charge from "work" daily EV range is double) ... up to 50% of degradation is not visible at all .. and in case the range is not more enough, there is still the ICE to make the car still fully usable for long range drive (just it will cause some extra money in fuel and a bit less in electricity)

Back to your question ... there is not enough history for this car for predict the future.

What we can see is that after 3y of usage we have report of people having already 20% battery degradation that per the Mitsubishi PR / expectation should be happening only after 8 years .. so in theory so far it is not so good .. but hard to say if things may get worst or battery degradation can be getting stable at 25% level.

The PHEV battery is "just" a 12kwh battery ... in 2 / 3 year time for now, we can expect to find some services capable to replace this battery, possibly for a bigger one .. for less then 10k USD (possibly ~5K USD) ... still quite some money for a car that most probably will have a left market value of 10 to 15k USD .. but ... it is not as bad as replace a 30kwh or bigger battery in pure EV

 

[jaapv]

Not only that, battery performance degradation is bound to be non-linear and ease up over time.
What is more, old Prius cars have shown that even a battery that appears to be at the end of its useful life often will need just a few cells to be replaced at a reasonable cost.

 

[elm70]

Not only that, battery performance degradation is bound to be non-linear and ease up over time.
What is more, old Prius cars have shown that even a battery that appears to be at the end of its useful life often will need just a few cells to be replaced at a reasonable cost.

Will be nice to know the report form Anko of his cells when the car is shown on dash as fully discharged (which in reality is 25 to 30% of SOC left)

Knowing if all the cells have similar voltage or some and how many have a much lower voltage

This is the only way to know how many cell got a degradation from the 80 cells in the car.

I'm afraid most of the cells suffer same degradation .. unless there is a bad QC control in the battery production.

Anyhow .. by the time .. I expect to be able to fit in for a reasonable price a 19kwh battery price as already done by vtech .. in my case I can drive to his shop in krakow for the even .. but I hope to don't have to do this in the next 5years .. so at least when my car will be 8y old

PS: Battery degradation .. is also a combination of two things: reduced capacity and increased internal resistance .. both cause less usable EV range, since with higher resistance the reported voltage is less, and the ECU will assume that cells has been discharged enough and it is time for ICE to charge them back ... internal resistance increase is normally a matter of time .. and normally get worst if battery are left fully charged for long period (so can effect more old car with low mileage)

 

[jaapv]

Well, on the Prius there are surprisingly few problems with old (2004 onwards) batteries, only a handful of full battery replacements known,and some dealers even giving 400.000 km battery guarantees, regardless of age. Given that the PHEV has a decade newer technology, I do not see a realistic cause for worry.

 

[elm70]

Prius is/was using NiMh battery so it is not much of reference
I'm not sure since when is available also Prius with Lithium battery, but does not change much
There are tons of different Lithium batteries and our PHEV does not use the same as the Prius

Fact that some of us have already lost around 20% in 3 years does not sound so good

 

[jaapv]

Prius is/was using NiMh battery so it is not much of reference
I'm not sure since when is available also Prius with Lithium battery, but does not change much
There are tons of different Lithium batteries and our PHEV does not use the same as the Prius

Fact that some of us have already lost around 20% in 3 years does not sound so good

Time will tell...

 

[Grigou]

Time has partially told :

Near 20 % in 3 years for anko.
15 % in 2 years / 30 000 km for me. No towing (but mountain sometimes).

Normally the curve of degradation is not linear, but until now I just can see some linearity
Let's hope that the speed of degradation will slow down, but if it will, when will it ? And at what level ? 30 % or 40 % ?

 

[greendwarf]

So the battery will last 15 years - how many ICE cars last longer than that? At least the PHEV has a reason for its depreciation unlike most cars. :idea:

 

[elm70]

So the battery will last 15 years - how many ICE cars last longer than that? At least the PHEV has a reason for its depreciation unlike most cars. :idea:

15 years .. based on what ?

I think battery can also last forever ... but they will deliver a fraction of the original power and a fraction of the original capacity

I have some 15y old Lithium battery (which I did almost not used in the last 10y) .. they are still alive but they have very high internal resistance .. so they provide around 1/3 of the original power .. the capacity is possible reduced only by 30%

Anyhow .. there are tons of Lithium battery chemistry ... hard to say how long and how well will last our PHEV battery ... so far it is not looking so good how it is "ageing"

At least .. the eMotors should be able to survive around 500k km .. and the ICE if used less then 50% of time, should not have big issue to make 500k km too

Possibly for achieve well the 500k km potential life of the car ... (20y life) ... one battery change is needed ... that hopefully will be not more then 5000 USD bill ... that is somehow acceptable for keep alive a car for 20y

So more or less ... is same cost or similar like to replace the ICE on a normal car after 250k km

 

[maby]

So the battery will last 15 years - how many ICE cars last longer than that? At least the PHEV has a reason for its depreciation unlike most cars. :idea:

15 years .. based on what ?

I think battery can also last forever ... but they will deliver a fraction of the original power and a fraction of the original capacity

I have some 15y old Lithium battery (which I did almost not used in the last 10y) .. they are still alive but they have very high internal resistance .. so they provide around 1/3 of the original power .. the capacity is possible reduced only by 30%

Anyhow .. there are tons of Lithium battery chemistry ... hard to say how long and how well will last our PHEV battery ... so far it is not looking so good how it is "ageing"

At least .. the eMotors should be able to survive around 500k km .. and the ICE if used less then 50% of time, should not have big issue to make 500k km too

Possibly for achieve well the 500k km potential life of the car ... (20y life) ... one battery change is needed ... that hopefully will be not more then 5000 USD bill ... that is somehow acceptable for keep alive a car for 20y

So more or less ... is same cost or similar like to replace the ICE on a normal car after 250k km

Hmmm, I would be extremely reluctant to pay $5000 to keep a 10 year old car on the road - assuming that it is also running up similar maintenance bills to a similar petrol car! We have a 20 year old Landcruiser outside the house with close to 200,000 miles on the clock and it has not needed any major mechanical work from new.

 

[elm70]

Hmmm, I would be extremely reluctant to pay $5000 to keep a 10 year old car on the road - assuming that it is also running up similar maintenance bills to a similar petrol car! We have a 20 year old Landcruiser outside the house with close to 200,000 miles on the clock and it has not needed any major mechanical work from new.

Right ...

But keeping alive the car (if it is sound, as most probably should be with the exception of the battery) it implies to make around 15k km a wear in EV mode that means save over 1k USD a year in fuel .. so ... changing the battery for 5k after 10y once it has bad performance, it implies to recover the cost in less then 5y time

As well .. a 10y old PHEV with a new battery on it, for sure it has a market value well above 5k ... but .. all it really depend how our PHEV is going to age

In theory, except for the batteries, all the other components should be designed for last very long ...

 

[jaapv]

According to Mitsubishi the car has been designed to last at least 300.000 km.

 

[maby]

...

As well .. a 10y old PHEV with a new battery on it, for sure it has a market value well above 5k ... but .. all it really depend how our PHEV is going to age
......

Given that a PHEV that is less than three years old is worth less than £20k, I seriously doubt that a ten year old PHEV will fetch "well above 5k" even with a new battery. There isn't any direct equivalent on the market that is ten years old, but an RX400h at ten years old currently fetches less than £5000 - as little as £3,800.

PHEVs are bought by techno-geeks, eco-nuts and tax-avoiders (I'm in the final group) - at ten years old, it will be looking pretty low-tech, its environmental credentials will look pretty lame and its tax avoidance will be minimal.

 

[elm70]

...

PHEVs are bought by techno-geeks, eco-nuts and tax-avoiders (I'm in the final group) - at ten years old, it will be looking pretty low-tech, its environmental credentials will look pretty lame and its tax avoidance will be minimal.

:mrgreen:

Interesting

Anyhow .. time will tell

I bet your 20y old "Landcruiser " has a market value above 5k

 

[jaapv]

...

As well .. a 10y old PHEV with a new battery on it, for sure it has a market value well above 5k ... but .. all it really depend how our PHEV is going to age
......

Given that a PHEV that is less than three years old is worth less than £20k, I seriously doubt that a ten year old PHEV will fetch "well above 5k" even with a new battery. There isn't any direct equivalent on the market that is ten years old, but an RX400h at ten years old currently fetches less than £5000 - as little as £3,800.

PHEVs are bought by techno-geeks, eco-nuts and tax-avoiders (I'm in the final group) - at ten years old, it will be looking pretty low-tech, its environmental credentials will look pretty lame and its tax avoidance will be minimal.

But it will still be a rather nice car, and worth driving till it falls topieces.

 

[maby]

...

PHEVs are bought by techno-geeks, eco-nuts and tax-avoiders (I'm in the final group) - at ten years old, it will be looking pretty low-tech, its environmental credentials will look pretty lame and its tax avoidance will be minimal.

:mrgreen:

Interesting

Anyhow .. time will tell

I bet your 20y old "Landcruiser " has a market value above 5k

Only just - and that is both a far more capable car and twenty years old. I see Landrover Discoveries not much more than ten years old going for under £5000

 

[maby]

...

But it will still be a rather nice car, and worth driving till it falls topieces.

Equally true of a Lexus - arguable a significantly nicer car - but still under £5k at ten years old.

 

[elm70]

Equally true of a Lexus - arguable a significantly nicer car - but still under £5k at ten years old.

Not sure ..

The PHEV with at least 50% of battery capacity is still a good car for very cheap daily commute

The Lexus .. is just an expensive oversize car.

I like to believe that as long the PHEV is in decent shape with decent EV range, it is still a car that has a market at any ageing time.

If new batteries will bring substantial advantage for decent price ... the PHEV could be a 20kwh+ Hybrid that after 10y could be better then when it was new.

It is interesting to see how well the used Tesla are holding the price, while our PHEV does not .... maybe the market has still to understand the full potential of this PHEV

In the past .. I was always promising my self to keep the car for his full life for maximize the "investment" (owning a car is a big waste of money) .. so far I was never been able to keep the same car longer then 3 years (for many different reason, like getting company car, or change country, etc) ... but maybe this time I will make it

PS: Price for old cars has quite some different country to country ... here in Poland old cars tent to hold better the "value" ... due to low taxes, cheap maintenance, lower income, etc etc

 

[Dusz]

Mine is a company leased car, chosen because of its size, usability (easy for my mother and mother-in-law to get into) and to reduce my BIK tax liability. This car is cheager tax wise than my previous Honda Civic diesel.
My last two lease cars I have bought at the end of their lease a quite favourable prices. Our company leases for 4 years. My lease has just over 3 years to run, but I should reach retirement in just under 4 years so this will be my last company car.
Will I purchase this car at the end of its lease?
I will wait to see how the car ages, how much they will ask for it, an estimation of my new mileage (which will be much lower than currently) together with other factors such as fuel cost, electricity cost, whether there are any loadings introduced to diswade people from using diesel etc. It's too early to say at the moment.