Outlander PHEV Sub-Zero Operation Question

[DukeHunter]

My first experience with -30'C Temperatures.

Yesterday the temperature was -27 to -29'C and I used the car in the evening. Car started fine but took a good 15 minutes to get interior to 0'C

Got home at 10pm and Main Battery state of charge was 50% showing a drive range of _ _ _

I waited till midnight to plug in the car on Level 2. Temperature was -29'C

Woke up at 7Am. Outside temp was -31'C. My Connect App showed that charging was full but still showed 2 1/2 to complete charge.

From house I remotely turned on and lights did come on and off after a few seconds. So that was a good line.

Went outside and noticed Blue Charge light on charge was Blue but not charging.

The red red charge light was flashing. I unplugged charging cable and turned on the car. Battery state of cge was at 95% (1/2 bar away from full)

ICE started fine. I turned on the 1500W Inverter to use the 1300W Ceramic heater and went in the house to start the car.

I drove 9 kms to take girlfriend to Dentist for 9am appointment

The Battery Temperature did go up slightly but still to the left of the line.

Tried placing in EV but Battery still too cols yet the Battery State of Charge had dropped to 50%. Partially by driving the EV Motors and powering up the 1500W Inverter

Some photos

Wow! At least we know that the software update helps for the -30c temperature and I saw in your photo that it feels like -40c.

For me as long as the car runs at that kind of temperature is fine with me.

Appreciate your update mate.

 

[Mangala Ranasinghe]

The Battery Heater that we are referring to is for the Drive Battery Pack (under the floor of the Car. In North America the 2018 to 2022 have one. The 2023 to 2025 PHEVs do not.

As far as your 12V Battery goes, there is a thread on a replacement Battery in the USA. I will link the post when I find it.

Here it is

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/threads/12v-aux-starter-battery-replacement.6945/post-67657

12V battery is not a big issue. You can go to any spare part store or to a Canadian Tire store (in Canada) to buy a compatible battery. It will cost only about $300.

 

[Lon12]

Thanks for the report. At least we now know the software update did have a positive effect on cold weather starting.

I haven’t seen any data that would indicate that. The no start issue is with battery temperature and we don’t have a digital value displayed anywhere to verify it. The bar graph doesn’t help much. I’ve seen the bar with that value after cold soaking at -17°C.

 

[Grandad]

I think I read in the manual Andre, to keep the car plugged in during cold -25 degree temperatures to help avoid non starting issues. This is easy to do at home, of course, but if one drives and parks somewhere there could be a problem.

Dave

This is another false comfort message from Mitsu. Plugging in at low temperstures adds only a trivial amount of heat in the absence of a battery heating unit. At best it "may" (Mitsubishi's word) slow the rate of cooling. It is ridiculous to have to babysit a new $60k vehicle and wonder if it will fire up on a cold morning.

 

[Grandad]

I haven’t seen any data that would indicate that. The no start issue is with battery temperature and we don’t have a digital value displayed anywhere to verify it. The bar graph doesn’t help much. I’ve seen the bar with that value after cold soaking at -17°C.

You're right. Even Mitsu says it "may" help but does "not guarantee" a better result.
I'm sure there'll be anecdotal reports of vehicle starting at -30C but without a range of variables being accounted for. The manufacturer warns users in writing though that at -30C for 10 hours, even plugged in with the "software enhancement" the vehicle cannot be relied on to start. As reticent as I am to believe anything Mitsu says (they advertised the 23 model as having a battery heater when it did not) I'm inclined to take their word when that say their vehicle can't be depended on to fire up.

 

[Grandad]

Wow! At least we know that the software update helps for the -30c temperature and I saw in your photo that it feels like -40c.

For me as long as the car runs at that kind of temperature is fine with me.

Appreciate your update mate.

Glad to hear the machine started - as it should. I hope you luck out and it continues to do so.

How much of a shame is it that owners have to do this level of babysitting on a new vehicle? This does not meet the bar of reliability IMO.

Cheers

 

[ronnieracoon]

View attachment 1683
This picture is from this past Saturday the car starter and drove without issues after it spent 5 ~6 hours parked outside not plugged in.

My wife got her Outlander 1st half of November and drove to work every day since. The car spends the nights in an attached but not heated garage and outside all day (9 hours) at work but plugged in to 120V. No issues and we had a few days (felt like weeks) around negative 16 Celsius. But we are experiencing and rise in temperatures for the upcoming days (common occurrence around Calgary area). She is loving the vehicle and reported no issues and good behaviour driving on Snow (we had some around here).

Will keep you posted but generally February is coldest winter month.

You need those Chinook winds to blow in and keep your mind off cold weather starts.

 

[ronnieracoon]

You're right. Even Mitsu says it "may" help but does "not guarantee" a better result.
I'm sure there'll be anecdotal reports of vehicle starting at -30C but without a range of variables being accounted for. The manufacturer warns users in writing though that at -30C for 10 hours, even plugged in with the "software enhancement" the vehicle cannot be relied on to start. As reticent as I am to believe anything Mitsu says (they advertised the 23 model as having a battery heater when it did not) I'm inclined to take their word when that say their vehicle can't be depended on to fire up.

Like Lawrence of Arabia once said ..nothing is written... including -30C starts. But chances are very good just the same.

 

[MiPHEV]

I finally got around to needing to make a battery heater device and tested it; in my case it is to warm the cells prior to leaving on longer trips in cold weather, to get the cells up to around ~50F/10C so that parallel operation can be used immediately and the cells can accept and deliver enough current to allow for normal operation, but the heater should work to start a 2023+ car in cold weather as well.



The heater is made up of 140 ft. of heat trace tape for pipes, rated at 5W/ft. This makes a ~700 watt positive temperature coefficient heater (the wattage drops as the temperature rises and can't overheat.) The heater is a twin size air mattress covered in a moving blanket, wrapped in canvas tarp. The heater trace is zip tied to the grommets of the tarp and to itself, forming a grid pattern. Slide the unfolded mattress under the car, reach in by the rear tire and inflate, this pushes the grid into contact with the battery and also insulates it at the same time. I used a higher total wattage to make sure I could reach temperature in a reasonable time frame - this seemed to raise the cell temperatures by about 15F/10C/hour in 28F/-2C outdoor temperature conditions.




Take some care if you use this technique, don't fully inflate the mattress - it starts to lift the car with relatively little air pressure. Once warm enough, ready to go, reach in by the rear tire, switch the pump to deflate, and pull it out. This is good for occasional use like I needed, or as a rescue device as long as you have power available (small generator, other car with >1000w on board inverter, nearby power outlet, etc.

 

[Lon12]

I finally got around to needing to make a battery heater device and tested it; in my case it is to warm the cells prior to leaving on longer trips in cold weather, to get the cells up to around ~50F/10C so that parallel operation can be used immediately and the cells can accept and deliver enough current to allow for normal operation, but the heater should work to start a 2023+ car in cold weather as well.

View attachment 1719

The heater is made up of 140 ft. of heat trace tape for pipes, rated at 5W/ft. This makes a ~700 watt positive temperature coefficient heater (the wattage drops as the temperature rises and can't overheat.) The heater is a twin size air mattress covered in a moving blanket, wrapped in canvas tarp. The heater trace is zip tied to the grommets of the tarp and to itself, forming a grid pattern. Slide the unfolded mattress under the car, reach in by the rear tire and inflate, this pushes the grid into contact with the battery and also insulates it at the same time. I used a higher total wattage to make sure I could reach temperature in a reasonable time frame - this seemed to raise the cell temperatures by about 15F/10C/hour in 28F/-2C outdoor temperature conditions.

View attachment 1720


Take some care if you use this technique, don't fully inflate the mattress - it starts to lift the car with relatively little air pressure. Once warm enough, ready to go, reach in by the rear tire, switch the pump to deflate, and pull it out. This is good for occasional use like I needed, or as a rescue device as long as you have power available (small generator, other car with >1000w on board inverter, nearby power outlet, etc.

Love it! How much did it cost to build?

 

[twiggy144]

Necessity is the mother of all inventions !
Well done MiPHEV !

This makes Mitsubishi look even more ridiculous with a non start condition under -25C.

 

[MiPHEV]

Love it! How much did it cost to build?

About $150, all told. The heat trace was about $100, and you can economize with less wattage/shorter cable, cheaper air mattress without built in pump, etc.

 

[PHEV07]

About $150, all told. The heat trace was about $100, and you can economize with less wattage/shorter cable, cheaper air mattress without built in pump, etc.

Very nice job and extremely intuitive.

Please consider Mass producing these. I know that I would buy one from you.

$150.00 for peace of mind, I am in.

You may private message me if you would consider selling me one.

 

[Lon12]

I think the heat trace tape you are using is perfect for EV battery temperatures. I find the Tesla also likes 10ºC for regen. So I could see this being very useful even in the garage to keep the batteries close to 10ºC:

Heat Trace Tape

 

[PHEV07]

I think the heat trace tape you are using is perfect for EV battery temperatures. I find the Tesla also likes 10ºC for regen. So I could see this being very useful even in the garage to keep the batteries close to 10ºC:

Heat Trace Tape

Hmmm. Wonder if there may be a way to attach this cable under the Battery Pack so it is secure and run the power cord into the Engine Compartnent. Then plug it into an extension Cord than can be fed thru the front grill and plugged into a power Outlet, when the Temperature drops.

The heating cord seems to be rated for outdoors and hopefully not effected by road salt.

 

[MiPHEV]

I don't plan to go into manufacturing any time soon, but it only takes about 30 minutes to bodge something like this together on the living room floor. My initial idea/plan was to make a permanent installed version using the same heat tape, I was going to place it on top of aluminum composite ACM sheet with a layer of self adhesive closed cell neoprene as insulation, fastened to the battery along the channels where the battery is bolted to the body using stainless zip ties or a similar fastener system. I decided against it for my purpose since it will be relatively infrequently used, but if I needed a preheat for regular commuting or daily use, I'd do a permanently installed version for sure.

The tape itself will reach over +/- 100F/37C. In practice it can never get the battery anywhere near that hot, as the watts fall as the temperature rises, and even 700 watts isn't enough energy to heat that much mass very hot in cold temperatures with heat continuously being lost out the top and sides of the pack. They put a small thermistor at the plug end that is designed to attach to the pipe, that turns the trace off somewhere above 40-50F, but this is ineffective on this setup, the placement is in a bad spot and just hangs out in mid air. I bought a temperature controller that I could use with the tape that I could stick its sensor in the middle of the heat grid array and have it cycle the heat on/off, but I decided in the end to just use a timer and give it a short 1-2 hour pre-heat right before my planned departure time. The controllers are commodity items, named "Temperature Controller Digital with Cooling Heating Pre-Wired Outlet On-Off Thermostat Controller" or similar.

 

[PHEV07]

I don't plan to go into manufacturing any time soon, but it only takes about 30 minutes to bodge something like this together on the living room floor. My initial idea/plan was to make a permanent installed version using the same heat tape, I was going to place it on top of aluminum composite ACM sheet with a layer of self adhesive closed cell neoprene as insulation, fastened to the battery along the channels where the battery is bolted to the body using stainless zip ties or a similar fastener system. I decided against it for my purpose since it will be relatively infrequently used, but if I needed a preheat for regular commuting or daily use, I'd do a permanently installed version for sure.

The tape itself will reach over +/- 100F/37C. In practice it can never get the battery anywhere near that hot, as the watts fall as the temperature rises, and even 700 watts isn't enough energy to heat that much mass very hot in cold temperatures with heat continuously being lost out the top and sides of the pack. They put a small thermistor at the plug end that is designed to attach to the pipe, that turns the trace off somewhere above 40-50F, but this is ineffective on this setup, the placement is in a bad spot and just hangs out in mid air. I bought a temperature controller that I could use with the tape that I could stick its sensor in the middle of the heat grid array and have it cycle the heat on/off, but I decided in the end to just use a timer and give it a short 1-2 hour pre-heat right before my planned departure time. The controllers are commodity items, named "Temperature Controller Digital with Cooling Heating Pre-Wired Outlet On-Off Thermostat Controller" or similar.

The other alternative also sounds like a great idea. It is a little late to do this now and Christmas Season is upon us now. Lots of shopping to do yet then I am off to Mexico on Jan 23

Mah look it this further when I return 3rd week of February

I may drop my car off at tgd Dealers while I am way cause I am confident it may not start at least once before I leave. They can keep it warm for me

 

[Grandad]

I finally got around to needing to make a battery heater device and tested it; in my case it is to warm the cells prior to leaving on longer trips in cold weather, to get the cells up to around ~50F/10C so that parallel operation can be used immediately and the cells can accept and deliver enough current to allow for normal operation, but the heater should work to start a 2023+ car in cold weather as well.

View attachment 1719

The heater is made up of 140 ft. of heat trace tape for pipes, rated at 5W/ft. This makes a ~700 watt positive temperature coefficient heater (the wattage drops as the temperature rises and can't overheat.) The heater is a twin size air mattress covered in a moving blanket, wrapped in canvas tarp. The heater trace is zip tied to the grommets of the tarp and to itself, forming a grid pattern. Slide the unfolded mattress under the car, reach in by the rear tire and inflate, this pushes the grid into contact with the battery and also insulates it at the same time. I used a higher total wattage to make sure I could reach temperature in a reasonable time frame - this seemed to raise the cell temperatures by about 15F/10C/hour in 28F/-2C outdoor temperature conditions.

View attachment 1720


Take some care if you use this technique, don't fully inflate the mattress - it starts to lift the car with relatively little air pressure. Once warm enough, ready to go, reach in by the rear tire, switch the pump to deflate, and pull it out. This is good for occasional use like I needed, or as a rescue device as long as you have power available (small generator, other car with >1000w on board inverter, nearby power outlet, etc.

Pretty darned ingenious.

I'd issue a couple cautions
• Even though you may get the vehicle started the battery can cool in vold conditions to the point at which
a) you can get an alert that the battery is cold and the vehicle may not restart if the engine is turned off; (Ive had this with ambient temperatures in the -28C range)
b) an alert/directive appears to the effect the the vehicle needs to be pulled over an be plugged in pdq (I've had this happen on a drive where the ambient temp. dropped from -25C to ~ -39C while in motion-I had thought that I was good to go once the vehicle was started-apparently not so)

Should you have a warranty problem Mitsu might well try to evade responsibility claiming that you'd voided they warranty by using a "non-standard" device that could have warmed the battery cells unevenly...etc,

Again however, congratulations on some innovative engineering. I'll bet you, like me, didn't expect to have to resort to such home brew solutions to make an expensive vehicle start in the cold.

Cheers!

 

[Grandad]

Necessity is the mother of all inventions !
Well done MiPHEV !

This makes Mitsubishi look even more ridiculous with a non start condition under -25C.

Indeed