Outlander PHEV Sub-Zero Operation Question

[tyleriv]

My only concern is by covering the battery it could cause it to overheat once it got to operating temperature. I would think the car would tell you if this is happening. I'm not familiar with these, but if they are easy to remove before driving than it may not be an issue.

Good point. An example of a heater is the "Canadian Polar Pad", 75W 2"x3" on amazon designed for installation on the oil pan. There are others that have lower wattage and are thermostatically controlled. Its a small area, but again, I don't want a "hot spot" of heat and at the same time don't want to further insulate the traction battery that might be an issue in hot summer operation. For clarity, I've not looked beneath the car for suitability.

 

[DougF]

I have a 2024 PHEV kept outside and have occasionally experienced winter temperatures < -30C. I was wondering if a low wattage (say 50W) engine block warmer (typically a "blanket like" device about 100 cm^2) would help with traction battery warming. I would apply the blanket with an adhesive to the bottom of the traction battery case assuming that there is 0.5 sq meter of area available under the vehicle. I say low wattage so that it is only warm enough to keep/get the traction battery system operational. I've used these warmers on the oil pan of my BMW diesel and Audi gas vehicles (for some reason the engineers of these cars think they can defeat -30C with ease - they can't).

I was considering buying the Outlander PHEV but changed my mind after reading about the risk of being stranded in cold weather.

I have an idea somewhat similar to that suggested by @tyleriv for those who have already bought one. The idea is to attach a removable heating pad assembly of one or more layers to the underside of the battery. Nearest the battery would be an electric heating pad, perhaps a thermostatically controlled heated doormat like this one: https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36 . Below this would be an optional insulating layer such as a thin sleeping pad made of closed cell foam like this: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/...water-resistant-0765486p.0765486.html?loc=plp The foam pad would be cut to size. Below the foam pad would a fairly rigid plastic panel, such as the kind used to protect hardwood floors from rolling desk chairs like this: https://www.amazon.ca/Kuyal-Floors-...f17-a3ef-6496632d2b1c&pd_rd_i=B0893BD69B&th=1 Again, it would be cut to size.

The traction battery, at least for the 2018 to 2021 model has four metal pieces on each side:




I’d tie a loop of strong cord to each of these. Then I’d tie cords from one side to the other, to secure the heating pad and other layers. The rigid plastic layer would prevent the heating pad from sagging at the front and back. But if the heating pad is slightly shorter than the front and back tie points, possibly just the heating pad might be used with no other layers. The heating pad at https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36 has pre-drilled mounting holes in the corners.

The simplest installation approach for the power cord for the heating pad would be to bring the end of the power cord inside the vehicle each time the vehicle is driven so that it does not get exposed to salt, water or road grit. Another approach would be to route the power cord into the engine compartment to a short extension cord. The cords would have to be secured so they do not sag under the vehicle or pass over engine or exhaust parts that get hot.

The heating pad assembly would stay in place until the risk of cold weather is gone, be removed and be reinstalled before cold winter temperatures arrive. During the winter the driver would have to take care not to drive in deep snow that might damage the heating pad assembly. During the summer there is the advantage that the battery would stay cooler with the insulation removed.

A key advantage of installing this in advance is that if the car is left somewhere cold where it can’t be plugged in and gets too cold for the car to start, the car could be towed somewhere where it can be plugged in, not necessarily a heated garage. For those parts of the country where severe winter conditions are encountered, some parking areas have block heater outlets. Instead of heating the engine block, you could heat the traction battery.

 

[BobK]

I was considering buying the Outlander PHEV but changed my mind after reading about the risk of being stranded in cold weather.

I have an idea somewhat similar to that suggested by @tyleriv for those who have already bought one. The idea is to attach a removable heating pad assembly of one or more layers to the underside of the battery. Nearest the battery would be an electric heating pad, perhaps a thermostatically controlled heated doormat like this one: https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36 . Below this would be an optional insulating layer such as a thin sleeping pad made of closed cell foam like this: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/...water-resistant-0765486p.0765486.html?loc=plp The foam pad would be cut to size. Below the foam pad would a fairly rigid plastic panel, such as the kind used to protect hardwood floors from rolling desk chairs like this: https://www.amazon.ca/Kuyal-Floors-...f17-a3ef-6496632d2b1c&pd_rd_i=B0893BD69B&th=1 Again, it would be cut to size.

The traction battery, at least for the 2018 to 2021 model has four metal pieces on each side:
View attachment 1398

View attachment 1399

I’d tie a loop of strong cord to each of these. Then I’d tie cords from one side to the other, to secure the heating pad and other layers. The rigid plastic layer would prevent the heating pad from sagging at the front and back. But if the heating pad is slightly shorter than the front and back tie points, possibly just the heating pad might be used with no other layers. The heating pad at https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36 has pre-drilled mounting holes in the corners.

The simplest installation approach for the power cord for the heating pad would be to bring the end of the power cord inside the vehicle each time the vehicle is driven so that it does not get exposed to salt, water or road grit. Another approach would be to route the power cord into the engine compartment to a short extension cord. The cords would have to be secured so they do not sag under the vehicle or pass over engine or exhaust parts that get hot.

The heating pad assembly would stay in place until the risk of cold weather is gone, be removed and be reinstalled before cold winter temperatures arrive. During the winter the driver would have to take care not to drive in deep snow that might damage the heating pad assembly. During the summer there is the advantage that the battery would stay cooler with the insulation removed.

A key advantage of installing this in advance is that if the car is left somewhere cold where it can’t be plugged in and gets too cold for the car to start, the car could be towed somewhere where it can be plugged in, not necessarily a heated garage. For those parts of the country where severe winter conditions are encountered, some parking areas have block heater outlets. Instead of heating the engine block, you could heat the traction battery.

I was considering buying the Outlander PHEV but changed my mind after reading about the risk of being stranded in cold weather.

I have an idea somewhat similar to that suggested by @tyleriv for those who have already bought one. The idea is to attach a removable heating pad assembly of one or more layers to the underside of the battery. Nearest the battery would be an electric heating pad, perhaps a thermostatically controlled heated doormat like this one: https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36 . Below this would be an optional insulating layer such as a thin sleeping pad made of closed cell foam like this: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/...water-resistant-0765486p.0765486.html?loc=plp The foam pad would be cut to size. Below the foam pad would a fairly rigid plastic panel, such as the kind used to protect hardwood floors from rolling desk chairs like this: https://www.amazon.ca/Kuyal-Floors-...f17-a3ef-6496632d2b1c&pd_rd_i=B0893BD69B&th=1 Again, it would be cut to size.

The traction battery, at least for the 2018 to 2021 model has four metal pieces on each side:
View attachment 1398

View attachment 1399

I’d tie a loop of strong cord to each of these. Then I’d tie cords from one side to the other, to secure the heating pad and other layers. The rigid plastic layer would prevent the heating pad from sagging at the front and back. But if the heating pad is slightly shorter than the front and back tie points, possibly just the heating pad might be used with no other layers. The heating pad at https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36 has pre-drilled mounting holes in the corners.

The simplest installation approach for the power cord for the heating pad would be to bring the end of the power cord inside the vehicle each time the vehicle is driven so that it does not get exposed to salt, water or road grit. Another approach would be to route the power cord into the engine compartment to a short extension cord. The cords would have to be secured so they do not sag under the vehicle or pass over engine or exhaust parts that get hot.

The heating pad assembly would stay in place until the risk of cold weather is gone, be removed and be reinstalled before cold winter temperatures arrive. During the winter the driver would have to take care not to drive in deep snow that might damage the heating pad assembly. During the summer there is the advantage that the battery would stay cooler with the insulation removed.

A key advantage of installing this in advance is that if the car is left somewhere cold where it can’t be plugged in and gets too cold for the car to start, the car could be towed somewhere where it can be plugged in, not necessarily a heated garage. For those parts of the country where severe winter conditions are encountered, some parking areas have block heater outlets. Instead of heating the engine block, you could heat the traction battery.

Here is Mike Mas's alternative solution that doesn't involve attaching anything to the car https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/thr...-observations-mike-mas.6174/page-3#post-62994

 

[Grandad]

I have a 2024 PHEV kept outside and have occasionally experienced winter temperatures < -30C. I was wondering if a low wattage (say 50W) engine block warmer (typically a "blanket like" device about 100 cm^2) would help with traction battery warming. I would apply the blanket with an adhesive to the bottom of the traction battery case assuming that there is 0.5 sq meter of area available under the vehicle. I say low wattage so that it is only warm enough to keep/get the traction battery system operational. I've used these warmers on the oil pan of my BMW diesel and Audi gas vehicles (for some reason the engineers of these cars think they can defeat -30C with ease - they can't).

Watch out that Mitsu doesn't take the opportunity to use any after market intalled heater as a means to dodge their warranty responsibilities. The slimy (I use that word advisedly) way they've approached the cold start issue after advertising a battery heater as standard equipment when it wasn't on the '23 model, suggests that they will not take a good faith approach to any subsequent related issues.earch

Search "mitsubishi battery class action" for details.

 

[Grandad]

Here is Mike Mas's alternative solution that doesn't involve attaching anything to the car https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/thr...-observations-mike-mas.6174/page-3#post-62994

It's unfortunate that so many Mitsu customers have had to go to such lengths to deal with a problem that Mitsu knew was there when they sold these vehicles in an unfit for purpose state. As noted elsewhere, be careful what you do to deal with the issue because you may allow the company the opportunity to slither through a loophole by saying you've voided the warranty. Given the company's history on the issue by dodging responsibility rather than standing behind their vehicles and making good on their error, you can expect they'll continue to find any escape route possible.

This should not be an owner's problem.

 

[tyleriv]

It's unfortunate that so many Mitsu customers have had to go to such lengths to deal with a problem that Mitsu knew was there when they sold these vehicles in an unfit for purpose state. As noted elsewhere, be careful what you do to deal with the issue because you may allow the company the opportunity to slither through a loophole by saying you've voided the warranty. Given the company's history on the issue by dodging responsibility rather than standing behind their vehicles and making good on their error, you can expect they'll continue to find any escape route possible.

This should not be an owner's problem.

Thank you for your comments; I had already joined the Canadian Class Action. However, you point out a sad reality that one needs to consider with any modification. Perhaps I'll use a scissor lift lab jack with the pad against the battery case - should the no-start situation occur. Messy and yes, this is a ridiculous situation. An irony is the dealership insisted (they "preinstalled" immediately after receiving the vehicle into inventory) on installing an engine block heater for winter situations completely ignoring the fact that the traction battery will not supply the starter current in very cold environments.

 

[Woon Chung]

Thank you for your comments; I had already joined the Canadian Class Action. However, you point out a sad reality that one needs to consider with any modification. Perhaps I'll use a scissor lift lab jack with the pad against the battery case - should the no-start situation occur. Messy and yes, this is a ridiculous situation. An irony is the dealership insisted (they "preinstalled" immediately after receiving the vehicle into inventory) on installing an engine block heater for winter situations completely ignoring the fact that the traction battery will not supply the starter current in very cold environments.

Hmmmmmm.. This car shouldn't be sold in cold chilly area. Neither travel in such area. Is this same to other cars in this area?

 

[tyleriv]

Hmmmmmm.. This car shouldn't be sold in cold chilly area. Neither travel in such area. Is this same to other cars in this area?

I have no experience with other hybrids. Generally gas/diesel engines (ICE) are supported with block heaters for extreme cold conditions (however many European cars don't seem to support block heaters for some reason and I've added warming pads to the oil pan to compensate). Most locations that provide long term (>6hrs) parking (employers etc) have outside electrical outlets to support block heaters in my area. I suspect that the outlander would not have any issue if the ICE could be started with a conventional 12V Pb battery/starter rather than the traction battery/generator. With a battery/starter scenario, the ICE could be started independently of the traction battery and drive the generator providing current to the traction motors (albeit at a reduced capacity). The heat generated by the ICE could warm the traction battery so that eventually normal operation would be achieved. As an aside, I've not experienced the no-go condition yet even though I park my car outside and it has been as low as -30C last winter.

 

[DougF]

Thank you for your comments; I had already joined the Canadian Class Action. However, you point out a sad reality that one needs to consider with any modification. Perhaps I'll use a scissor lift lab jack with the pad against the battery case - should the no-start situation occur. Messy and yes, this is a ridiculous situation. An irony is the dealership insisted (they "preinstalled" immediately after receiving the vehicle into inventory) on installing an engine block heater for winter situations completely ignoring the fact that the traction battery will not supply the starter current in very cold environments.

@tyleriv Did you consider the workaround I suggested in August of a heating pad assembly attached to the vehicle for the winter and removed for the warmer months? I am thinking that a doormat style heating pad might be less inclined to get mouldy after a season’s use than a blanket. With either approach in very cold conditions there is the question of whether the heating pad can heat up the battery faster than the cold weather is removing heat from the battery. @Grandad, do you think that this approach would have worked for your situation when you owned an Outlander?

 

[tyleriv]

@tyleriv Did you consider the workaround I suggested in August of a heating pad assembly attached to the vehicle for the winter and removed for the warmer months? I am thinking that a doormat style heating pad might be less inclined to get mouldy after a season’s use than a blanket. With either approach in very cold conditions there is the question of whether the heating pad can heat up the battery faster than the cold weather is removing heat from the battery. @Grandad, do you think that this approach would have worked for your situation when you owned an Outlander?

I enjoyed reading your workaround; basically I'm lazy. I've used oil pan heater pads (a rubberized pad with an internal heater sealed against the elements) silicon glued to the oil pan. I thought that I could glue this directly to the traction battery in the same way - so a perm solution. The pads can handle salt, water, mud, rocks etc. I have paid my local mechanic about 50$ to install these pads on my euro diesel's oil pans and they have done a great job in cold weather with very easy starts. I would only be worried about a hot spot developing on the traction battery so I would reduce the heating pad wattage - I just wanted to warm it enough to avoid the no-start situation.

 

[DougF]

Thanks @tyleriv for your reply. When you mentioned “blanket like” in your original post I envisioned something of fabric that might get mouldy. But I now realize that you are referring to a rubberized pad. In another post you mentioned the "Canadian Polar Pad", 75W 2"x3" available on Amazon. My concern with that is that you could indeed create a local hot spot in which some cells are warm while others remain cold soaked which could either result in the vehicle not starting if the BMS detects the imbalance or in damaging the cold cells. I was suggested a larger heating mat measuring 2 feet by 3 feet like the one at https://heattrak.com/en-ca/products/heated-snow-melting-entrance-mat-small-24x36

Using the 4 grommet holes in the corners, this could be tied on to the battery case. The power cord highlighted in yellow could be protected with a plastic bag and tape etc. so that when the vehicle is driven the electric contacts don’t get coated in salt and road grit. If you have someone install winter tires, at the same time the heating pad can be attached and then the pad can be removed when the winter tires are removed. The simplest approach is to just tie on the heating pad and not use the layered approach I described earlier. The pad would only be plugged in when the weather is likely to be problematic.

I wish Mitsubishi would test and come up with a retrofit solution for existing 2023 to 2025 Oulanders and fix the issue with a proper battery heater for newer vehicles!

 

[phevGoBzzzzzz]

I wish Mitsubishi would test and come up with a retrofit solution for existing 2023 to 2025 Oulanders and fix the issue with a proper battery heater for newer vehicles!

Hoping they'll be forced to by the class action

 

[ronnieracoon]

Hoping they'll be forced to by the class action

I have received a letter from mitsu letting me know that my car, a 24 mod, has a software update that will help with this issue. But staying charged (plugged in )is also recommended in very cold weather.

 

[DougF]

I have received a letter from mitsu letting me know that my car, a 24 mod, has a software update that will help with this issue. But staying charged (plugged in )is also recommended in very cold weather.

See what @Grandad wrote at https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/threads/cold-weather-no-start-work-around-scheduled-warm-ups.6499/

 

[tikan]

First time it's been below zero this season and I'm already unhappy with the update they did in the spring. Engine is kicking in when not needed. It used to wait until closer to -20C before kicking in due to the cold but now it kicks in around 0C. I'm going to waste so much fuel this winter due to this and it does nothing to help with the cold battery issue that occurred last year. Electicity demand never even got close to the "blue area" where it would generally kick in if there isn't enough power and yet the engine is running. I just fueled up a couple weeks ago and used fuel on the highway 4 days ago so there is no reason for it to kick in due to low use or old gas either.

 

[PHEV07]

First time it's been below zero this season and I'm already unhappy with the update they did in the spring. Engine is kicking in when not needed. It used to wait until closer to -20C before kicking in due to the cold but now it kicks in around 0C. I'm going to waste so much fuel this winter due to this and it does nothing to help with the cold battery issue that occurred last year. Electicity demand never even got close to the "blue area" where it would generally kick in if there isn't enough power and yet the engine is running. I just fueled up a couple weeks ago and used fuel on the highway 4 days ago so there is no reason for it to kick in due to low use or old gas either.

View attachment 1482

Yes this really sucks.

Once enginge kicks in, and when safe to do so at traffic light stop. Turn off Car and restart. The car should then revert to EV with engine off.

Mitsubishi Motors really blew it with the 2023 and onward models. I never had this issue with my 2018. My 2022 also started engine needlessly but this 2024 is ridiculous.

If Mitsubishi Motors does not fix this issue and add a Battery Heater, my next PHEV may not be a Mitsubishi. Sad to say.

 

[tikan]

Yes this really sucks.

Once enginge kicks in, and when safe to do so at traffic light stop. Turn off Car and restart. Tge car should then revert to EV with engine off.

Mitsubishi Motors really blew it with the 2023 and onward models. I never had this issue with my 2018. My 2022 also started engine needlessly but this 2024 is ridiculous.

If Mitsubishi Motors does not fix this issue and add a Battery Heater, my next PHEV may not be a Mitsubishi. Sad to say.

Yeah, I happened to reset my fuel economy before my drive. Since it's such a short commute and the engine is running the whole time the fuel economy is brutal. Last year I could use the battery 100% of the time as long as it wasn't colder than -20C. My commute is 1.7 km and average speed is 30 km/h. Normally it's 0l/100km, this morning was 10.9l/100km. These vehicles are incredibly inefficient at low speeds with the engine running. It's going to cost me a fortune this winter.
I've done the stop/restart trick a few times. It usually works but the engine didn't start when I started today, it kicked in after I left my driveway - not sure if it would have helped this time. I will try when I go home for lunch if it kicks on and let you know.
I'm seriously concerned about my trip to Calgary around Xmas. Usually go every other year and if it's too cold I'm going to have to rent a car or cancel my vacation.

 

[tyleriv]

Yeah, I happened to reset my fuel economy before my drive. Since it's such a short commute and the engine is running the whole time the fuel economy is brutal. Last year I could use the battery 100% of the time as long as it wasn't colder than -20C. My commute is 1.7 km and average speed is 30 km/h. Normally it's 0l/100km, this morning was 10.9l/100km. These vehicles are incredibly inefficient at low speeds with the engine running. It's going to cost me a fortune this winter.
I've done the stop/restart trick a few times. It usually works but the engine didn't start when I started today, it kicked in after I left my driveway - not sure if it would have helped this time. I will try when I go home for lunch if it kicks on and let you know.
I'm seriously concerned about my trip to Calgary around Xmas. Usually go every other year and if it's too cold I'm going to have to rent a car or cancel my vacation.

When the weather approaches zero I execute the force EV method.

1) Press the <START> button without pressing the brake.
2) Select EV mode,
3) Press the <START> button while pressing the brake as you normally would to start the car.

This seems to prevent the ICE from starting albeit a cold drive to work.

 

[tikan]

When the weather approaches zero I execute the force EV method.

1) Press the <START> button without pressing the brake.
2) Select EV mode,
3) Press the <START> button while pressing the brake as you normally would to start the car.

This seems to prevent the ICE from starting albeit a cold drive to work.

Yeah, I've always done this. It worked last year just fine, the engine kicks on way sooner since the update I had done late last winter / early spring.

 

[drwho]

As mellobob said above. The top 20% of the battery is hidden from the user, as is an amount of the bottom range.

The car protects the user from damaging the battery.

I did not know this. Thanks Andy for posting this. I've stupidly been charging the battery to 80% most of the time. When I have charged it to 100% occasionally, it predicts a range of around 90 to 95kms. When I first got it in June, it would estimate somewhere between a 60 and 70km range.
From now on, I'll just charge it to 100%, but I'll check this info with my dealership who seem quite helpful.