New battery tech for existing retrofit

[Nicolas Bourgault]

Hi all,... love this group

I am considering à 2018 model with 100k on it as I love the fact of having 2 power sources (fuel+electric charging).
My main concern is what would be the car worth 3 years down the line (9 years old) with battery degradation.
I understand that the outlander without its electric muscle isn't the most economical car to have.

Would anyone know if Mitsubishi would offer new tech batteries with possibly more power density to retrofit the older models? I would pay for that.

Cheers

 

[AndyInOz]

I cannot comment on what Mitsubishi may or may not do, but I can tell you that companies are starting to spring up, which do battery refurbishments for electrical and hybrid vehicles.

If this is not already an option for you, I expect that it will be soon.

There has been a lot of discussions on other forums regarding car dealers charging more than the price of the original car for a replacement traction battery.

To be clear, I'm not talking about Mitsubishi dealers doing this.

 

[maby]

I cannot comment on what Mitsubishi may or may not do, but I can tell you that companies are starting to spring up, which do battery refurbishments for electrical and hybrid vehicles.

If this is not already an option for you, I expect that it will be soon.

There has been a lot of discussions on other forums regarding car dealers charging more than the price of the original car for a replacement traction battery.

To be clear, I'm not talking about Mitsubishi dealers doing this.

We came close to buying a new Ford Explorer EV until I discussed this with the dealer. The car, new and in the road was going to cost around £55k and the dealer was estimating around £40k for a battery replacement.

Martin

 

[littlescrote]

We came close to buying a new Ford Explorer EV until I discussed this with the dealer. The car, new and in the road was going to cost around £55k and the dealer was estimating around £40k for a battery replacement.

Martin

Unless it was under warranty, you would never do a full battery replacement - you'd do cell replacement as necessary. Any battery is just made of cells which are available separately. Ford may put 400 of them in their battery for the Explorer, Toyota may put 300 in a smaller car's battery etc. There's nothing complicated about this stuff.

 

[SeattleExPat]

We came close to buying a new Ford Explorer EV until I discussed this with the dealer. The car, new and in the road was going to cost around £55k and the dealer was estimating around £40k for a battery replacement.

Martin

Of course the dealer will scare you off buying an EV - they hate them because they make a lot less money on service!

 

[maby]

Trouble is that even cell replacement is expensive. The headline range of the Explorer on the delivery day was only just enough. The dealer warned us that we should expect no more than 80% of that on the day that we drove it away and that we should expect to lose as much as a third of that range over the first eight years. At that point, it would be an expensive car that no longer met our needs.

We bought a Nissan X-Trail - and it is the best car we've ever owned...

Martin

 

[fresh-milk]

Here in New Zealand there is a company (not affiliated with Mitsubishi) that swaps out the cell packs. They sell a reconditioned pack with 70% SOH and a brand new pack (assume after market cells). From memory it was USD3,500 and USD6,000 respectively. There are others that provide the same service for Toyota, Lexus and Nissan Leafs.

This Australian company also upgrades battery packs

While no one can predict the future, today there are a bunch of after market offerings to replace the batteries. So I could only assume in the future there will be more options and cheaper.

 

[littlescrote]

Trouble is that even cell replacement is expensive. The headline range of the Explorer on the delivery day was only just enough. The dealer warned us that we should expect no more than 80% of that on the day that we drove it away and that we should expect to lose as much as a third of that range over the first eight years. At that point, it would be an expensive car that no longer met our needs.

We bought a Nissan X-Trail - and it is the best car we've ever owned...

Martin

A third?! They really don't want to sell them, do they?

 

[DougF]

A third?! They really don't want to sell them, do they?

Maybe the dealer was being honest and that is refreshing.

I would contrast that with the approach of Mitsubishi as a company with the 2023 and 2024 Outlander models. Although they sell across Canada and the United States, including in regions that experience prolonged cold temperatures they don’t always tell purchasers that the if the traction battery gets too cold (somewhere around -25°C) the car won’t start to protect the traction battery. And plugging the car in at these temperatures won’t work because there is no heater for the battery and the cars computer prevents charging.

For people who don’t live in areas with prolonged cold temperatures and who don’t intend to travel through such areas the Outlander can be a good choice but I think that people should be informed with the current models and the issue should be fixed with future models.

 

[maby]

A third?! They really don't want to sell them, do they?

They are being honest. When we took delivery of our new PHEV, I had to drive it like a milk cart to get thirty miles out of it. Eight years later, it was hard work getting twenty out of it. This is a big problem with all EVs. My wife has a twenty five year old diesel landcruiser on our drive way - it has done close to two hundred thousand miles and, although it is looking tatty now, it can do everything it did on the day it was delivered new from the factory. In that time, maintenance has consisted of an annual oil change, a couple of new exhausts and a change of wheel disks. Current technology EVs are absolutely certain to require significant battery maintenance costing thousands in less than ten years.

Martin

 

[littlescrote]

They are being honest. When we took delivery of our new PHEV, I had to drive it like a milk cart to get thirty miles out of it. Eight years later, it was hard work getting twenty out of it. This is a big problem with all EVs. My wife has a twenty five year old diesel landcruiser on our drive way - it has done close to two hundred thousand miles and, although it is looking tatty now, it can do everything it did on the day it was delivered new from the factory. In that time, maintenance has consisted of an annual oil change, a couple of new exhausts and a change of wheel disks. Current technology EVs are absolutely certain to require significant battery maintenance costing thousands in less than ten years.

Martin

It absolutely cannot! ICE also degrade and it will be making a lot less power and probably consuming more fuel than it did when it left the factory, it's just that you can't easily measure it.

 

[Tigercub]

ICE started out only 30% efficient lol.

 

[maby]

It absolutely cannot! ICE also degrade and it will be making a lot less power and probably consuming more fuel than it did when it left the factory, it's just that you can't easily measure it.

It goes as far and as fast as it ever did. It may use a bit more fuel, but not enough to notice. When we bought it, I could do around four hundred miles on a tank, refill in three or four minutes and get off the lights reasonably quickly. I still can - and that is all that matters in the final analysis!

Martin

 

[fresh-milk]

It goes as far and as fast as it ever did. It may use a bit more fuel, but not enough to notice. When we bought it, I could do around four hundred miles on a tank, refill in three or four minutes and get off the lights reasonably quickly. I still can - and that is all that matters in the final analysis!

Martin

I agree

An ICE car might degrade but you can still put in a full tank and drive. And I say that as a proud owner of a PHEV. The hope is that in in the next few years battery cell replacement is more widespread, cheaper and easier so that older EV / PHEVs can be driven and not junked.

The big lie on EV is that it's greener. I prefer for the discussion to be around different energy options and room for both on the roads.

 

[greendwarf]

Current technology EVs are absolutely certain to require significant battery maintenance costing thousands in less than ten years.

Martin

A bit naughty Martin! You and I have been around here for 10 years and both know that EV battery degradation has little to do with the passage of time but everything to do with the number of full charge recycles (around 2000) - which is, for a full EV, a function of distance travelled. For the UK it is 7,400 per year, on average.

Given that a typical current EV's range is about 200 miles, so about 40 charge cycles per year giving a theoretical lifespan of 50 years. Even if you assume that degradation will reduce in a straight line, this would still suggest a useable range of 100 miles after 25 years, with minimal noticeable loss at 10 years (i.e. the end of warranty.) - so no "significant battery maintenance costing thousands".

Of course, being only the average, high mileage users will notice it more quickly whilst low users possibly none at all. What we do know however, that there is little evidence, so far, that high mileage cars with similar use as your Landcruiser are needing new batteries! But then you know this already, really.

 

[Keefy]

Here in New Zealand there is a company (not affiliated with Mitsubishi) that swaps out the cell packs. They sell a reconditioned pack with 70% SOH and a brand new pack (assume after market cells). From memory it was USD3,500 and USD6,000 respectively. There are others that provide the same service for Toyota, Lexus and Nissan Leafs.

This Australian company also upgrades battery packs

While no one can predict the future, today there are a bunch of after market offerings to replace the batteries. So I could only assume in the future there will be more options and cheaper.

Do you know if the also replace the Battery Management System (BMS)?

From owning one and reading lots, the BMS being overly conservative is the actual cause of degradation rather than the actual physical condition of the battery cells or pack balance. It would also be great if the refurbs included some kind of temp management. Without that the batteries are highly likely to get damaged by heat or cold regardless of your treatment of the batteries.

 

[maby]

A bit naughty Martin! You and I have been around here for 10 years and both know that EV battery degradation has little to do with the passage of time but everything to do with the number of full charge recycles (around 2000) - which is, for a full EV, a function of distance travelled. For the UK it is 7,400 per year, on average.

Given that a typical current EV's range is about 200 miles, so about 40 charge cycles per year giving a theoretical lifespan of 50 years. Even if you assume that degradation will reduce in a straight line, this would still suggest a useable range of 100 miles after 25 years, with minimal noticeable loss at 10 years (i.e. the end of warranty.) - so no "significant battery maintenance costing thousands".

Of course, being only the average, high mileage users will notice it more quickly whilst low users possibly none at all. What we do know however, that there is little evidence, so far, that high mileage cars with similar use as your Landcruiser are needing new batteries! But then you know this already, really.

Having pretty much retired, my mileage is down to about 12,000 miles per year. Our PHEV was retired at just under ten years old and had around 100,000 miles on the clock - but we would also have put quite a few miles onto the Landcruiser over that period. The PHEV had lost more than a third of its EV range over that time. We went to Ford - the HQ in Essex, not a dealer - for the product launch of the Explorer. The car was well over £50,000 - and we had reserved one off the production line before we went to the launch. The headline range at that time (they subsequently postponed the delivery so that they could upgrade the battery) was around 280 miles. Our standard pattern of usage is a round trip of just over 200 miles per week - with no charging option - and another few tens of miles per week locally. The Ford salesman (and this is Ford HQ, not a dealer) told us that we would probably be able to make that trip on a single charge during the summer with the car new but we would arrive back home virtually flat. It was debatable if it would manage the round trip in the middle of winter - even brand new. And he warned that it would probably lose a third of that range by eight years old - at which point it would net meet my needs...

So, no, I don't agree with your figures on current battery technology. The time will come when I'm not allowed to buy a petrol car, but experience with the PHEV leads me to avoid pure EV for as long as possible. I like the EV drive train and we've gone for the X-Trail ePower e4orce - and it is a beautiful car to drive. But the battery pack is about the size of a couple of briefcases - an EV range of just over a mile. It's effectively an electric turbocharger which allows the car to turn in decent performance from a small and relatively efficient petrol engine. I'm approaching 70 and I hope this will be my last car - it's my son that I feel sorry for having to live on EV for many years to come!

Martin

 

[littlescrote]

You shouldn't feel sorry for your son having to live with an EV, you feel sorry for him and any offspring for the continuing CO2 you are pumping into the atmosphere for the sake of convenience. I find it very hard to believe that said 200 mile round trip doesn't provide ANY charging opportunity. Even 20 minutes for a pee and a walk around would easily provide enough additional range to make the trip viable.

 

[maby]

You shouldn't feel sorry for your son having to live with an EV, you feel sorry for him and any offspring for the continuing CO2 you are pumping into the atmosphere for the sake of convenience. I find it very hard to believe that said 200 mile round trip doesn't provide ANY charging opportunity. Even 20 minutes for a pee and a walk around would easily provide enough additional range to make the trip viable.

I'm travelling with a cat who gets extremely irate every time my speed drops below 60!

Martin

 

[fresh-milk]

Do you know if the also replace the Battery Management System (BMS)?

From owning one and reading lots, the BMS being overly conservative is the actual cause of degradation rather than the actual physical condition of the battery cells or pack balance. It would also be great if the refurbs included some kind of temp management. Without that the batteries are highly likely to get damaged by heat or cold regardless of your treatment of the batteries.

The Australian company has 2 battery pack options with the same energy capacity. The more expensive option (+AUD1,000 / USD600 using the same battery pack) gets greater mileage (+30kms / 18 miles) and that is likely from them adjusting the car's software.

Like the Colonel's 11 spices, I would expect that to be their secret blend

I am not affiliated with the company and have never used their product, and they seem to be one of the few commercial operators offering new battery packs and extended range via software edits. I would imagine there are bound to be the same in USA and Europe but I am not aware.