Charge mode?

[mountkay]

I plan to use the “Charge” battery function in a unique way.

I live completely off-grid, with solar and a 30KWH battery bank. In the winter, my solar cannot always keep up.

I used 12gallons of gas in my generator last year.

So if I predict I will be out of energy at home, I plan to use charge mode on my way to work and on the way back. Then dump the outlander battery into my home battery bank (via 1500w outlet to EG4 Chargeverter).

I tested this and got it to work, although it was a little finicky. Biggest foreseeable issue is having to leave the car window cracked to run an extension cord out.

 

[phevGoBzzzzzz]

I use charge mode for two cases:

1. On long camping trips, I use the inverter every day to top up my Ecoflow battery which runs my fridge and charges my devices. After a week or so, I need to charge the car battery again.

2. When doing long road trips, I prefer to "Save"-mode my battery at about 50%, so I have full access to electric torque and full regen as needed when cruising. But if I know I'm going to do a big uphill drive soon, I will switch to Charge to fill up the battery as much as possible before the climb begins.

 

[Woon Chung]

When I'm on a 200 mile journey with 50mph+ possible.
I drive EV down to about 5 miles range.
CHARGE until I'm back to 20 mile range.
Run in EV down to 5 miles.
Rinse and repeat.
That's roughly 50/50 petrol/EV.

I found some data regarding gas mileage comparing use of CHARGE MODE or not. I first though that using CHARGE mode from time to time while driving will give more mileage but after I hear from other's experimental data and technical sheet, I have to correct it as follows.

1. Using generator during driving by selecting charge mode use more gas than normal mode. ICE uses 1.3 gallons to charge 10kwh while driving.
2. 10kwh is the energy to run electric motor for 19 miles. On the contrary, 1.3 gallon gas covers 34 miles.
3. Under CHARGE mode when idling needs under 1/2 gallons for full charge. So, Charging when idling consumes HALF gasoline than charging while driving.
4. According to such data result, CHARGE is for charging the battery NOT for EV driving purpose. It is better to use battery while car is not driving, like camping, or emergency power supply.

Sorry for my previous posting regarding my guess that using charge mode might be better during driving was completely wrong.

 

[Woon Chung]

I use charge mode for two cases:

1. On long camping trips, I use the inverter every day to top up my Ecoflow battery which runs my fridge and charges my devices. After a week or so, I need to charge the car battery again.

2. When doing long road trips, I prefer to "Save"-mode my battery at about 50%, so I have full access to electric torque and full regen as needed when cruising. But if I know I'm going to do a big uphill drive soon, I will switch to Charge to fill up the battery as much as possible before the climb begins.

Is it true that charge mode in downhill will gain faster than B5?
If car is in Hybrid mode, B5 will get maximum re-gen power using downhill force. But once in charge mode, ICE turns on and the consume more gas to turn generator. Disregarding down or uphill, charge mode will consuming 2kwh/liter = 6km EV drive, while 1 liter gasoline for Hybrid is 11km.
Considering all variables up and down and re-gen, Charge mode consuming gasoline will not cover Hybrid(natural/echo) mode gas mileage.

 

[Rockwallrick]

I like to use charge mode when I do trips that are somewhat longer than the 40 mile pure EV range that I typically get with our 23 Outlander. My daughter lives 55 miles away so I start with a full charge and then about 30 miles in I will switch to charge so that I have battery left for City driving. Also, I don’t like to use charge at speeds below 45 mph.

 

[Woon Chung]

It should be obvious to anyone that the car cannot decide the most efficient mode as it knows nothing about the upcoming journey (even if you use the satnav, it's completely independent of the drivetrain). Therefore the driver has to use the different modes for best efficiency.


It would be daft to use the battery at high speed when it would be rapidly depleted, just as it's daft to have the engine running during in a traffic jam.

It would be helpful to know the basic behavior of the car in accordance with the mode selection and Hybrid functions.

Sport mode - Use maximum power from ICE and Battery. The gas will supply immediately to the cylinder as we step on the gas pedal and Electric motor power will be added as much as possible. At the same time, ICE charges drive battery as it is used for electric motor. It is controlled by computer according to the road condition. It will be off battery level is bottom.

ECO mode - The computer automatically controls the Plug-in Hybrid EV System and air conditioning system, to improve fuel efficiency. When ECO mode is active, your vehicle will slowly accelerate even if pressing the accelerator pedal. The details of car behavior is hidden behind.

Above 2 selections are easy to be found in other Hybrid cars. And there are more choices in Outlander PHEV.

Charge mode - Simply understood that ICE charges drive battery while driving. When you select "Sport Mode", Electric Motor use more battery to increase the total power. For preparing such case, Mitsubishi recommend to use charge mode 20min before you enter the uphill road. But also notice that charge mode significantly drop fuel efficiency. It is better off Charge mode not to waste gas when drive down hill. Better charge with B mode.

SAVE mode - This is not for gas saving. It is for drive battery saving from Electric motor use. Disregarding the level of battery, the Hybrid system keep charging the battery as much as Electric motor consumes battery. and maintain battery level. Since this mode use ICE to charge while driving, fuel efficiency will be dropped. too.

As we may know, Hybrid system increases fuel efficiency in the city road, rather than highway. When we drive in the city, we have to stop the car and start again frequently. The Hybrid is designed to save gas by Electric motor covers such high gas consuming spots. Naturally, in Highway, Hybrid cannot do for fuel efficiency. Eco mode will prevent high speed passing by limiting quick acceleration but it means nothing in highway.

PHEV is superior to save gas by charging at home. If journey is 50miles for one way and home charging is available when parking, 25 miles on EV(No gas) and 25 mile on gas(Hybrid). We consumes 2 gallon for 100mile driving by 2 times of charging(Assuming second time charge is 100%)). However, one time charging in a longer distance, gas mileage will drop.

Keep in mind that you can save gas with one time charge by PHEV and city driving by Hybrid. Charge mode and Save mode rather drop gas mileage at any situation. Some say fast charging during journey is not cost effective. (Rough Calculation: $5 for 10kwh makes 20mile. $3.35 for 1 gallon in US makes 26 miles.)

 

[littlescrote]

I like to use charge mode when I do trips that are somewhat longer than the 40 mile pure EV range that I typically get with our 23 Outlander. My daughter lives 55 miles away so I start with a full charge and then about 30 miles in I will switch to charge so that I have battery left for City driving. Also, I don’t like to use charge at speeds below 45 mph.

That is the best way

 

[Zulu67MP]

It should be obvious to anyone that the car cannot decide the most efficient mode as it knows nothing about the upcoming journey (even if you use the satnav, it's completely independent of the drivetrain). Therefore the driver has to use the different modes for best efficiency.


It would be daft to use the battery at high speed when it would be rapidly depleted, just as it's daft to have the engine running during in a traffic jam.

Please help my understanding... It seems to me that running the ICE to drive the generator alone need only be of concern in respect of time, rather than distance travelled or road speed; so whether the car's stationary or travelling makes no difference as the amount of charge generated will be the same per unit time. What does seem pointless is to run the generator whilst also in maximum regeneration mode, i.e. B5, because the latter will already be delivering charge at the maximum available (permitted?) rate (or so my my car's energy dial seems to indicate). What am I missing?

 

[phevGoBzzzzzz]

Is it true that charge mode in downhill will gain faster than B5?
If car is in Hybrid mode, B5 will get maximum re-gen power using downhill force. But once in charge mode, ICE turns on and the consume more gas to turn generator. Disregarding down or uphill, charge mode will consuming 2kwh/liter = 6km EV drive, while 1 liter gasoline for Hybrid is 11km.
Considering all variables up and down and re-gen, Charge mode consuming gasoline will not cover Hybrid(natural/echo) mode gas mileage.

I don't know. I didn't mean to imply that.

I was just saying that I prefer to keep the battery half empty when cruising, so that I have room in it to absorb regen braking.

I only pre-charge if I know I'm going to do a long climb

 

[AndyInOz]

Another reason to use charge mode, is if you're expecting to need a sudden burst of power.

For example if you are about to overtake someone on the highway, or if you need a quick start from the lights, because you can see that your lane ends further ahead.

The car will start the engine any time you plant your foot, but there is a slight lag, putting the car into Charge mode means that you manually start the engine, and it is ready to give you maximum power on demand.

I'm not sure about the description of Save mode (above).

Save mode will start the engine as required after the battery drops a specific percentage below the level where save mode was turned on.

So, for example, if the car is at 50% and you engage Save mode, the battery will decline to 40% and then the engine will start, it will continue to run until the battery is back up to 50% and then turn off. This start/stop behaviour will continue until Save mode is turned off.

Generally, forum members report that this start/stop behaviour is disconcerting, and prefer to use Charge mode for a more consistent driving experience.

 

[ChrisMiller]

But Charge mode does exactly the same thing, just at around 80% battery level (above that the car uses 'trickle' charging when plugged in). And if you don't select either Charge or Save, just the same thing happens around a battery level of 10% (which the car reports as 'empty'). If there's any difference in fuel consumption at these different levels of charge, it must be very small - I expect we could save more fuel by driving 1kph/mph slower.

 

[AndyInOz]

Agreed.

If you want to save fuel, pump the tyres up and drive slower, and less aggressively.

(And don't stick extra bits on the car).



It would be fun to run tests to see if smooth wheel covers and under-body smoothing improved fuel efficiency, but I'll leave those things for others.

 

[SDP24]

It should be obvious to anyone that the car cannot decide the most efficient mode as it knows nothing about the upcoming journey (even if you use the satnav, it's completely independent of the drivetrain). Therefore the driver has to use the different modes for best efficiency.


It would be daft to use the battery at high speed when it would be rapidly depleted, just as it's daft to have the engine running during in a traffic jam.

I am just interested in seeing is if forcing the car into charge mode is more efficient use of fuel than just letting the engine cycle on and off.
I get you may use a bit more fuel in the engine is on for longer, but you get more battery only kms when you slow down.
Just need more data to make informed observations.

 

[mountkay]

Sometimes I feel as though people on these forums are trying too hard to re-invent the wheel.

I can briefly recall a thread where someone kept extensive records of different types of driving, only to find out that Normal mode was the most efficient (only to be beat by Eco mode).

Charge mode does just that, charge the battery. Save mode does just that, save the battery.

Neither are more efficient than Normal. Normal will run the engine as effectively as possible, generating extra charge for the battery when it is efficient to do so.

Charge and Save will force the car to Charge or Save the battery, not be more efficient.

I have not kept records, but I do feel as though my experience has reflected my thoughts above.

The only other good example of a use case for Charge mode that I’ve heard is while towing, when you might need a lot of battery for going up a hill with a trailer.

 

[mountkay]

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/thr...conomy-trailering-and-fuel-logbook-data.6548/


Here is the thread I was referring to. Neither Save mode or Volting yielded the OP better results than Normal.

Also, I think people worry too much about stop and go traffic, or in-town slow moving stoplight to stoplight traffic.

You do not need to prep the battery for this by putting the car in charge mode. In Normal, the car will get itself to a small state of charge, taking very little time if you are stopped or moving slow. The engine will not fire up for a long time because you are not using much energy in stop and go traffic or briefly moving from stoplight to stoplight.

If you absolutely do not want the engine to fire up in town, feel free to use Save mode to save the battery for in town, but know that you are trading efficiency for a personal preference.

Think of Normal mode like this - you cannot run on battery forever. So the engine will turn on. When it does, it will run in the most efficient way. Sometime while running it will charge the battery, sometimes while running it will deplete the battery. The battery is your buffer so the engine can run in the sweet spot most efficient RPM.

While the engine is running efficiently over time, eventually it will generate enough energy for the battery so the car can run on pure electric for some time, before starting the process over again.

 

[Woon Chung]

As far as I can tell, the cycle is run on battery till depleted, - run ice, excess energy used to top up battery until sufficient is available to use battery. 'normal' mode depletion = 0k estimate range, 'sufficient' = 1k range. Save mode sets 'depleted to whatever it is currently, and ' sufficient ' is that plus 1k. So it will cycle around your set point. Charge mode sets' sufficient ' to be 80% charge, so it won't cycle, just accumulate charge.

Both these modes are useful to retain some battery for a slow speed, or high load, part of your trip. Slow speed because "series" mode is less efficient, and high load because that provides some extra 'boost' capacity.

I seriously doubt, apart from avoiding series mode, it makes much difference to overall economy.
Guessing what point to turn charge off to arrive home with 0 battery is a fun exercise on boring trips though...
Regards Russell

It is good to know that depletion =0 km, sufficient = 1 km. This means in normal driving condition, ICE runs for charging 1 km power, which is about 0.3 kwh.
Since you used distance unit as K, I guess it is Km, not mile. I live in US.
Saying in different expression, when the battery is lowest level and in normal driving mode, ICE continuously runs after 1 km and charge 0.3 Kwh.

I wonder when the car sets series mode or parallel mode. Can we do it by selecting mode?

As fa as I know, charge and save mode consumes more gas for the distance it covered by electric motor. When idling in charge mode, 6,2 liter gas for 48km distance (See You Tube recorded by Mitsubishi sales man). That 6.2 liter gasoline can drive 161 km. You may know that save mode is not for saving gasoline. It mean save battery level as it is, disregarding current battery level. So Charge mode and Save mode is running ICE more than normal Hybrid condition. It cause more gas than normal consume rate, despite charged battery can add some distance of EV mode.

I like to use charge mode when I do trips that are somewhat longer than the 40 mile pure EV range that I typically get with our 23 Outlander. My daughter lives 55 miles away so I start with a full charge and then about 30 miles in I will switch to charge so that I have battery left for City driving. Also, I don’t like to use charge at speeds below 45 mph.

Here in forum, I found 2 different opinion for fuel efficiency while driving.
First one is that charge mode in high speed will save gas since saved electric energy can be used for city high traffic condition.
Another one is that charge mode in high speed consumes more gas than normal drive.

Mitsubishi Manual says "Use charge mode 20minutes before uphill so that electric motor will add power when climbing the uphill". But not mentioned fuel efficiency. Some other user manual says the same thing.

By searching here and there, I believe that charge mode or save mode will consume more gas than normal mode. I don't have exact extra consuming gas quantity, but the additional distance we can get it by charged energy is shorter than the additional distance we can get from extra gas if we use it as normal mode. By charge mode, if we use 1 gallon more than normal mode, we can charge 7.6kwh of energy save. We can extend 15.2 miles of distance with 7.6kwh of energy, according to the data sheet. But if we use 1 gallon for driving instead of charging battery, we can get 26 miles average in Hybrid mode. This is the just calculation. One guy used charge mode in highway and use battery during city drive but lost 3.8 gallon during 300 mile distance. Please don't stick on the numbers, and look at the fact that consumes more gas when we use charge mode while driving.

If you don't agree with the result of my search, you don't have to worry about. You can test it by yourself in the same journey by using charge mode and not using charge mode. And then you can compare the test result. That is is true answer. Considering there are many variables, test it several times, then you will be happy the rest of your driving with this car.

In My case, I drive less than 10-20 miles per driving, 2-3 times a week. I can use EV mode all for the life of my car. Therefore, my personal concern is not fuel efficiency, but how to extend good condition of Gasoline in the tank for a year.

 

[phevGoBzzzzzz]

If you want to save fuel, pump the tyres up and drive slower, and less aggressively.

(And don't stick extra bits on the car).

LOL!

I have oversized all terrain tires, and stuff on the roof. Even when towing my popup camper, I get better fuel efficiency than my Forester got when not towing.

I'm not too concerned about fuel efficiency for my 2-4 annual tanks.

 

[Woon Chung]

Please help my understanding... It seems to me that running the ICE to drive the generator alone need only be of concern in respect of time, rather than distance travelled or road speed; so whether the car's stationary or travelling makes no difference as the amount of charge generated will be the same per unit time. What does seem pointless is to run the generator whilst also in maximum regeneration mode, i.e. B5, because the latter will already be delivering charge at the maximum available (permitted?) rate (or so my my car's energy dial seems to indicate). What am I missing?

I am new to a Mitsubishi PHEV. So I have been searching here and there to find out technical and theoretical background of PHEV general and also Mitsubishi PHEV. In this forum, people are a little bit confused as per my search result.

How the Hybrid works.

PHEV runs EV mode first if battery is more than minimum, if you do not change the mode from normal. The battery will be used until it reaches the minimum. When the battery reaches to minimum level, ICE kicked. it will charge battery for 1km distance battery and stop. This will be circulated if we maintain current selection. There are several cases of ICE running whilst battery level is more than empty. When the car needs more power to climbing the hill with same speed, when the car needs more power to pass the car with high speed, when Save/Charge mode is on. Computer does not diagnose the forthcoming load condition, whether charge is needed or not. All the computerized modules only response to the power needed or battery level or Save/Charge mode selection. When the battery has been fully charged(80% of total capacity) by the ICE generator, ICE will stop running. Immediately Charge mode will be off automatically and cars moving by the power of battery only, unless the car needs high power, or save mode is on.

Re-gen is no relation with battery status. Why? while the car is running, battery energy will be consumed and re-gen energy will never fill up that much electricity. Assuming there is big water tank. There is a tab always opened. Even though the tank is full of water, the water level goes down immediately when tab is open. Re-gen is possible after the car is moving. This means the water tank refill will start after the tab is open. The refill speed will never exceed the speed of tab draining. Generator is another source of water to tank. While the ICE runs to fill the tank, it's maximum level is 80%. So, there are plenty rooms for Re-Gen water.

The Purpose Of Charge mode.

According to 2022 Mitsubishi PHEV user manual, "When driving a continuous uphill road with 4 % gradient or more at a speed of 62mph (100 km/h) or higher, it is recommended to activate the battery charge mode at least 20minutes before reaching the uphill road. Depending on the road and/or vehicle condition, it may not be possible to maintain a high speed." This means Outlander ICE power is not strong enough to maintain high speed in uphill. It is exactly same experience with ICE only car with low power engine. It lower the gear to get enough power. It consumes more gas. "Using battery charge mode will increase fuel consumption."

There are so many exemption it may prevent charge mode activate. The conclusion from the book is that "Charge mode is ONLY for power boost in driving condition"

The Generator.

In Hybrid engine, (PHEV is same) there is a generator connected to ICE. Not like a alternator, it generates high voltage DC. As the rotor spins faster, higher amperage generated. Re-Generating is made from Electric Motor. Computer controls regen function according to the car speed. There are no relation in between. I can't find any source of generated quantity of Electricity from both source. But it is sure that they are very small. The difference is that generator consumes a lot of gas to charge the battery, as the user manual says. There is no amount per minute. There might be amount per rotor spin speed. Maximum generation mode would be maximum ICE rpm and when the rpm is high, B5 will never activated, while ICE rpm becomes low ,i.e., when the car slow down, B5 will be activated.

Battery Cells are controlled by BMU/BMS. I do not know which is correct name of this module. However, this module is related DC-DC converter which controls in and out of DC amperage from battery to battery. DC-DC converter supplies all 12 v system of the vehicle. Drive battery is big enough to cover all of 12v system in the car without draining too much. On the contrary, 12v Aux battery will be used while the car mode is not in ready mode. So without ready mode, 12v aux battery will be empty fast when the car is in ACC mode or head lamp and/or high beam is on. Once the 12 Aux battery becomes empty, vehicle will not be initiated to ready mode. DEAD.

 

[Woon Chung]

Sometimes I feel as though people on these forums are trying too hard to re-invent the wheel.

I can briefly recall a thread where someone kept extensive records of different types of driving, only to find out that Normal mode was the most efficient (only to be beat by Eco mode).

Charge mode does just that, charge the battery. Save mode does just that, save the battery.

Neither are more efficient than Normal. Normal will run the engine as effectively as possible, generating extra charge for the battery when it is efficient to do so.

Charge and Save will force the car to Charge or Save the battery, not be more efficient.

I have not kept records, but I do feel as though my experience has reflected my thoughts above.

The only other good example of a use case for Charge mode that I’ve heard is while towing, when you might need a lot of battery for going up a hill with a trailer.

It is exactly what I tried to say. Charge and Save mode is not for fuel efficiency. This is how gaslighting us that Hybrid has more fuel efficiency. Think about that there are 2 ICE only cars. One has high fuel efficiency with 1.6 liter engine. Another one is 4 liter engine fuel consuming truck. They advertise small car for fuel efficiency and for bigger engine car for powerful jobs. Hybrid is originally using small engine, so they are lack of power from the birth. But they added to hide(or recover) the lack of power by using the electric motor. and they are explaining that Charge mode is for power purpose. By doing so, Hybrid can save fuel for regular mode by limiting use of power with small engine and get power by not limiting ICE and adding electric power when needed. The good Thing is all is under your control if you understand the why they are existing.

For your reference, Honda Pilot has 3.5 L 285 hp. Hybrid ICE 2.4 L 148 hp. It is true that pilot is wasting gasoline than Outlander.

However, they never mention in such way in the market. They tried to hide that Hybrid engine is not big enough for that size of the car. Just tell us " when you need power, use Charge mode or Sport mode, but battery should be enough to consume high power when needed" It is proved that saving or charging battery will consume more gas than normal and cannot provide the miles to drive with extra gas consuming. If we use 1 gallon of gasoline for additional gas for generating energy, we should have EV extra miles of 28 miles. Actual miles of EV distance for 1 additional gasoline is way less than half. They only consume more gasoline than driving in Normal or Eco.

Think about how the Eco save the gas. The computer does not allow to use excess power from ICE and/or from electric motor. It also limit use of 12v system on A/C and Heater, too. On the contrary, Save and Charge mode and Sport mode is for saving extra power by consuming more gas for towing, up climbing, passing other car with quick power up, ice cold A/C, All use of Heating system. Hybrid engine itself is not so powerful as other ICE only cars. All 12v system uses drive battery as a power source. thus, if 12v system consumes drive battery too much, they cannot provide enough power when needed. So they limit 12v system when drive battery becomes low. That's how they stop Sport mode or charge mode by itself. That is the basic concept of Hybrid car.

Hybrid is the product of smart genius of Toyota (the first hybrid was invented in 1901) who can control the power distribution, with smaller engine combining to electric motor. The same job has been done by the TRANSMISSION during ICE era. However, They tried to postpone EV era, because they have to get enough money by extending Hybrid era, because they are leading Hybrid industry. Without Tesla, we may stay in the Hybrid more longer.

Using electric motor(invented 190 years ago) for car is a landmark of Car tech. Hybrid is the intermittent process to the 100% EV. Toyota is very smart to survive in the transition period of car tech history. And they are strong enough to create trend of car market. But for me, it only delays for human being to enjoying Electro-Magnetic World in car industry, comparing to other IT industry. Just like Petrol Industry delayed electric motor car industry, as a result. Look at the China and Korea. They are competing Tesla in EV market. While, no competitive EV cars from Toyota.

God created The Light. Mankind created how to use Electro-Magnetic-Wave only during 200 years of Science. Awesome!!

 

[Ben Baker]

Hopefully Mike Mas will join in on this one. Have you been able to figure out what's the most efficient mode overall? Normal, Eco or Volting (using Charge and EV sessions). Or has this already been flogged to death?