Long distance driving

[anko]

Well, at least the police has to be there ... :lol:

 

[ChrisMiller]

It's an interesting example of how different European legal systems operate:

In England, everything not specifically prohibited by law is permitted.
In Germany, everything not specifically permitted by law is prohibited.
In France, everything is permitted, even when specifically prohibited by law.
In Russia, everything is prohibited, even when specifically permitted by law.
And in Switzerland, everything not specifically prohibited by law is obligatory.

Season's greetings to one and all

 

[jaapv]

Not using indicators when switching lanes...Another 150 Euro fine...

Even if no one else around?

As Anko says, hard to be caught if there is no police around, but yes, it is obligatory to use them at all times. Come to think of it, you could get caught on camera. In theory. It is a bit like running a red light when there is no traffic.

 

[RichardM]

But it makes no sense to indicate (and even less to penalise for it) when it does not benefit another driver (s).

 

[greendwarf]

But it makes no sense to indicate (and even less to penalise for it) when it does not benefit another driver (s).

We've has this nonsense before, in relation to training ambulance drivers (if I remember correctly) - the problem is you can't ever be sure that there is no road user who will benefit even if you aren't aware of them :roll: It should be an automatic - "mirror, signal, manoeuvre" - without having to think about it.

 

[jaapv]

Correct. Nor can you be sure that there is no oncoming traffic hidden behind the edge of the windscreen or an obstacle when you decide to cross a white line, which normally is there for a reason - like insufficient visibility of oncoming traffic.

 

[Steel188]

Over the last 30 years I have driven 1.2million miles without incident and the majority of that was whilst being the holder of a RoSPA Advanced Driving Gold certificate.

The key is observation and anticipation, one doesn't just indicate for no good reason, you do it to advise other road users of your intentions. Now, I accept the case for always indicating in an urban area, no matter how observant you are there are always cars appearing from side streets or driveways, and pedestrians or cyclists who need to know where you are going. But on the open road, or motorway, it is a different story. You can see far more, anticipate more easily and make judgements about the movements of other traffic more easily. If there is no one to benefit from your indicators, and your observations make it clear that this is the case, that heightened level of awareness means there is no need to use them. Not because you can't be bothered, but because you know it is of no use.

The same applies to broken white lines on open roads, defined here as UK A and B roads in open country. Using all available road surface to give you a better view, to spot hazards and anticipate issues earlier so you can maintain good progress is to be encouraged. It needs practice and should only be done when it is safe to do so. Solid white lines should be treated as a brick wall and should only be crossed when turning right. In my opinion, this technique is of no benefit on motorways and dual carriageways and should never be used in built up areas, especially in the 20mph zones that are now proliferating.

In a few weeks, I will be touring the north of Scotland for work, and I know both of these techniques will be used to great affect in the Highlands and beyond and then over the following months as I travel to all parts of the U.K. And Ireland.

 

[anko]

On a comic note: the Dutch word for 'abandoned' is the same as the word for 'abandoning'. So the sign at the roundabout close to my home, explicitely tells me I 'must signal on an abandoned roundabout' :lol:

 

[anko]

@Steel188,

That is all nice, but if you make it an habit to always signal, even when not needed, you will never make a mistake and forget to signal when it is needed. How can you beat that? I mean, what is wrong with signalling when not needed, when it is pure automated behaviour?

 

[Steel188]

These are the techniques taught to our police advanced drivers. When something becomes a habit, you do it without thinking and that's the problem, you do it "without thinking"

This is far above learning to drive and then gaining decades of experience, this is about wanting to learn from the best, hone your skills of car control, observation, anticipation and road craft and submitting yourself to rigorous assessment on a regular basis.

I have no doubt you will have seen the TV programmes where a policeman pursues a criminal while giving a running commentary of everything they see and do, well that forms a large part of the assessment drive as it allows the examiner to understand what you're doing and why.

My first advanced test was with the recently retired head of the U.K. Police advanced driving school in Hendon who was also an instructor at the Caterham racing school! After my drive, his only question was about why I had only overtaken 7 of the 9 cars in a slower moving line of traffic instead of all 9! My reply that the car was only a week old, had less than 300 miles on the clock and the 1700cc non turbo diesel Vauxhall engine needed 1000 miles at lower revs before being opened up gradually over the next 1500 miles (as stated in the owners manual and service instructions) satisfied him - I had thought about what I was doing, understood my car's needs and drove accordingly while making good progress- he gave me my first Gold certificate.

I appreciate, as others have said before, some of the very best advanced skills in the UK are illegal elsewhere in Europe, so let's agree to differ and enjoy the diversity these experiences bring to the forum.

By the way, Happy New Year to you all.

 

[anko]

Are we still talking about "not signalling when nobody is around"? Hardly an advanced skill, I would say

Happy New Year to you too. And all others of course.

 

[RichardM]

Steel188 is right.

Think when driving. Doing things automatically is bad.

But then I'm just an ambulance driver

 

[AndyInOz]

No, not signaling is just always wrong.

That car on the horizon, is actually a motorcycle with twin-headlights.

At least if you signal your intention, he as an opportunity to brake.

There are so many collisions caused by people who "didn't know anyone was there" and therefore didn't bother to signal.

There could be a vehicle (especially a motorcyclist) in your blind-spot.

There is a lot of ******** taught by ******s under the title "advanced driving"

 

[ChrisMiller]

I'd argue that if you've lost situational awareness to the point that "I didn't know anyone was there", you're not an advanced driver. But I agree that always signalling before a lane change means one less thing to think about - making a decision each time is just a waste of bandwidth. The trouble is that too many people use it as a substitute for being aware of what's happening around you.

 

[jaapv]

I'm probably not advanced enough to go swerving all over the road, not signal and ignore traffic lights, but then I have only done just a bit over a million kms up till now...
All this advanced driving stuff assumes that the driver in question is infallible. I prefer to have a safety margin and to admit to being able to make a mistake or misjudgement, not to mention other drivers on the road doing the same. It has saved me more than once...

 

[jaapv]

I'd argue that if you've lost situational awareness to the point that "I didn't know anyone was there", you're not an advanced driver. But I agree that always signalling before a lane change means one less thing to think about - making a decision each time is just a waste of bandwidth. The trouble is that too many people use it as a substitute for being aware of what's happening around you.

Cars have blind spots. Roads have obstacles hiding part of your view.

 

[ChrisMiller]

An overtaking vehicle can't stay in a blind spot for very long. The point is that you should have been aware of it before it entered the blind spot.

A standard part of any advanced driving test is for the tester to cover the mirror and ask "what's behind us?"

 

[anko]

An overtaking vehicle can't stay in a blind spot for very long. The point is that you should have been aware of it before it entered the blind spot.

A standard part of any advanced driving test is for the tester to cover the mirror and ask "what's behind us?"

Is that a reason for not signaling?

 

[ChrisMiller]

If you read my post, you'll find that I agree that signalling should always be part of a lane change manoeuvre.

 

[anko]

If you read my post, you'll find that I agree that signalling should always be part of a lane change manoeuvre.

You are absolutely right and I do apologise. I (unintentionally) took your last post out of context and responded to that.