It takes 3.2lts of petrol to charge the battery in my Phev.

[Trex]

Hi,

Big storm about 7pm last night here in Australia and ran around turning everything electronic off, tv computer etc. I also unplugged the Phev even though it was not charging (starts on offpeak at midnight). Forgot to plug back in so empty hv battery this morning.

Always wanted to confirm know how much petrol it takes to charge, Mitsubishi Australia say about 3lts, so here was my chance. This was done while parked doing a brim to brim petrol test.

With 1 bar showing (out of 16) on the hv battery display ( I ran the AC till the petrol motor started and then pressed the charge button) I commenced the test:
7.31am-1 bar after pressing charge button
7.37 -2 bars
7.42 -3 bars
7.45 -4 bars
7.48 -5 bars
7.52 -6 bars
7:55 -7 bars
7.59 -8 bars
8.02 -9 bars
8.06 -10 bars
8.10 -11 bars
8.14 -12 bars
8.19 -13 bars
8.28 -14 bars petrol motor idled down here
8.34 -14 bars petrol motor stops and charge mode still showing on display

My Phev used 3.2 lts.

Regards Trex

 

[gwatpe]

Hi Trex,

Useful info. Has confirmed my measurements and highlighted the relative high cost of GRID electricity we pay vs petrol costs.

For me to recharge my PHEV from GRID electricity, approx 10.5kWh, will cost 10.5 x 0.39 = $4.10c. The petrol will cost 3.2 x $1.19 = $3.81c. to get 80% full. This will be approx $4.80c if it could fill totally.

I suspect this is why AUS shipped cars do not have a high speed charge socket. It is actually only marginally cheaper to use GRID recharging. I luckily have a solar stored energy system to recharge my PHEV from, so I have not ever recharged from power I have to buy from the GRID.

It seems that the petrol and electricity costs in AUS are linked, so the present trend may continue. OFFpeak power is more difficult to have as an option where I live, and the cost benefit has increased to about half the normal power cost, and the trend is to have no OFFpeak power in the future, with a trend to time of use metering, that has proven to leave most customers with higher power bills.

For a few months we had petrol costs under $1.00 per litre and it was considerably cheaper to use the "CHARGE" button instead of plugging in.

PSedit: No storms here in SA, but with own house power system, blackouts happen to others.

 

[jaapv]

Phew...That is nearly four time the price I pay... And petrol is 50% more expensive over here....

 

[MartinH]

One question, how did you get the figure 3,2liters?, ýou know the time for charging, how do you know the consumption?

 

[Regulo]

This was done while parked doing a brim to brim petrol test.

Topped right up, did test, topped up again, measuring what he put in.

 

[MartinH]

Sorry, did not undertand that sentens.

It looks too be better than theoretical values, but very interesting
A gasoline Engine of normal size consumes app 1 liter/hour ideling, you can test this by checking the consumption downhill in 100km/h(manual gearbox) in neutral, you will se Close to 1 l/100km.
This is the alternator, internal friction, heat, etc.
To just add 2,2 liters for charging 10kw seems strange. 1 liter of gas contains 9,06kwh, with a efficiensy of less than 30% on the Otto engine you should teoretically need alot more than this.
If you check the spec. on a gas generator, you will se that it gives 2kwh/liter of fuel, almos all does this, and this is a very small otto Engine runing much closer to max torque= max fuel efficency

Look at my earlier thread:

A petrol engine gets app. 4 horsepower/liter of fuel/hour, so when your car consumes 8 liters/hour, you use app. 32 horespower, similar to 23kW, therefore you get 10/23=0,43 hour EV mode = 43km in 100km/h.
If you increase the use of electrical, 23kw for running the car and 10kw for fast charging, the use of fuel should be: 33kw=45hp, 45/4 = 11,25 liters/hour.
So IF your car would fast charge the battery when driving, you should see consumption figures on your dash arround 11 liters/100km when you cruse in 100km/h down the freeway

Sorry for all theroetical stuff and all figures and estimate, but i can not help it, i just loves it!

Theoretical calculation. If you want to get electricity from petrol Engine + generator, you can say you get 2 kWh/1 liter of fuel.
So for charging you battery 10kWh you will burn app 5 liters of fuel, and then you get 35-40km of EV mode?(in Sweden this time of the year we only get about 33km)
So if your car run on less than 10liter/100km, theoretical it is much better to not charge the battery with th petrol Engine in your car.
This is the theoretical behind it, but do you notice different?

Please comment and correct me if i am wrong, i do this calculatons for my customers alot when it comes to boats and fuel consumptions, especially when people try to sell a gas boats and prommise fuel consumptions in crusing speeds so low that they could should nominated to the Nobel price for invention a gas Engine with 90% efficiency!

 

[user 258]

Hi,
I'd just like to clarify a couple of points:
Although the battery is 12Kwh only about 8Kwh is actually available under normal use. So (according to the gauge) fully empty to fully full is 8Kwh. When using the engine to charge (according to anko's picture) I think it only charges to 85%. Hence fully empty to when the engine stops charging should be 85% of 8Kwh so only 6.6Kwh went into the battery.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[anko]

Martin,

I see 11,1 @ 100 km/h.

The efficiency of the engine goes up if load increases (I think this is about the only reason why you would charge the battery while running in Parallel mode). So, even though charging while parked seems inefficient, charging when the engine was running anyway seems a smart thing to do.

Apparently the cost for extra fuel associated with charging is less than the cost of letting the engine run all the time (instead of alternating between parallel and EV mode).

 

[Kim]

A gasoline Engine of normal size consumes app 1 liter/hour ideling...
1 liter of gas contains 9,06kwh, with a efficiensy of less than 30% on the Otto engine you should teoretically need alot more than this.

30% efficiency already includes all the losses.
And on the plus side: no extra losses for gearbox and rolling drag / tire loss...!
So calculative the 3.2 litres would be spot on!!

 

[MHS]

The 3.2 L is presumably only at tick over while stationary. If your driving while charging, the engine will be supplemented by regenerative braking.

 

[Trex]

Hi everyone that has replied,

I have always wanted to confirm that figure, ie about 3lts, (claimed by Mitsubishi Aus) and could have kept the result to myself but I thought maybe some members here would like to know. The only regret I have is not noting the seconds on my readings. Why? Look at the time intervals between the lighting of the hv battery bars.

Regards Trex.

 

[Kim]

I say thank you for the test and posting the results! Very usefull and highly informative!

Don't worry about about the time intervalls, as the battery voltage does not increase linear with the amount of capacity during charging, and the bars can only show voltage, not capacity.

 

[Woon Chung]

After I bought Outlander PHEV, I was always curious about why there is a charging mode. I owned Hybrid before this car and it does not have charging mode, because computer controls charging sequence automatically. After a short period of searching here and there, including other issues, too, to learn about my new(not brand new, but 2022) PHEV information. So far, I concluded that this has less relation for driving efficiency, but much related in "EMERGENCY CASE". like extra power source during camping and short time of grid power outage. One example of the evidence is 120V 1500w outlet in GT model in North America. The behind story of this is that 2011 Tsunami in Japan. This disaster made Mitsubishi to install 3000w level inverter inside the car, even though it limits to 1500w by its own On/Off switch.

There are some different opinions in the forum for money saving by using charging mode during driving. In here, I would like to add that most general information of Lithium Ion Battery character of Life. This battery has limited life span according to full charging frequency. Thus, lot of devices which using Lithium Ion battery apply safety circuit to prevent full charge, at the same time apply safety circuit to prevent full discharge. to extend its life. We have to talk about Mitsubishi Drive Battery Life span, too, considering frequent use of charge mode.

In the old time, Internal Combustion engine lasts a couple of decade without any big issues when we maintain properly, even more than that. Lots of Volvo and Forester is still running on the street. Most popular reason to change the car is old fashion or lots of other fancy models in the market. But when it comes to EV, most of the car owner want to sell his or her car not to face the case of replacing battery. The cost of replacing battery is more expensive than the cost of replacing the ICE motor. The battery technology is advancing day by day, but still long way to go.

Could it be good to battery if I do not charge at all as if it drives like pure Hybrid car?
Could it be better for battery if I charge only 80% at wall charger?
Could it be no problem for battery life span if I charge 100% every night?
Could it be safe to battery if I use charge mode all the time?

Please give me your idea regarding battery life span by how we use drive mode in OHEV

 

[AndyInOz]

The vehicle software manages the amount you can charge the battery, so you don't need to restrict to 80%.

Unless of course, you go to elaborate lengths to defeat the software with various 'methods'.

 

[mountkay]

The battery technology is advancing day by day, but still long way to go.

Batteries can last a very long time if manufactured properly. Pretty much all home battery storage comes with a rating for how long the battery will last.
My LFP batteries that power my home are rated at 8000 cycles at 80%DoD - to 80%.

That means after 8000 cycles of 80% discharge, the batteries will still have 80% life left.

So if I discharge them 80% every day, for 20 years, they will still have 80% of their rated capacity left.

Other things will need to be replaced before the battery dies. BMS, Inverter, etc. Batteries can be very resilient.

A car battery can be manufactured to do the same, although the chemistry will probably be different than LFP (some teslas do use LFP).

Given that Mitsubishi gives a 10 year warranty on the battery, I do not think you need to worry about babying the battery. Mitsubishi has already made it so the battery will not discharge below 20%, along with other protection measures to prolong battery life.

Below is a graph of Tesla battery capacity vs. mileage.

 

[mountkay]

The cost of replacing battery is more expensive than the cost of replacing the ICE motor

This depends very much on the car manufacturer.
There are small hybrid batteries that are expensive, like
Land Rover 1.7KWH for €31,000.
But for Tesla, 100KWH battery for €14,500.

There is not a direct correlation between battery size and cost, because the car company has to manufacture the battery and some companies are much better at doing so.

If you want a behind the scenes look at a shop that replaces all types of car batteries, I would look at EV Clinic on X - https://x.com/evclinic

 

[Woon Chung]

This depends very much on the car manufacturer.
There are small hybrid batteries that are expensive, like
Land Rover 1.7KWH for €31,000.
But for Tesla, 100KWH battery for €14,500.

There is not a direct correlation between battery size and cost, because the car company has to manufacture the battery and some companies are much better at doing so.

If you want a behind the scenes look at a shop that replaces all types of car batteries, I would look at EV Clinic on X - https://x.com/evclinic

What a professional information!!!
Since your opinion is so much based on data sheets, I spent some time to broaden my knowledge on new tech batteries, but I am not qualified to such a deep knowledge. I cannot draw any beneficial conclusion Because my Chemical-Electrical-Material related knowledge is stay beyond 1970's high school depth.
EV clinic says cylindrical battery is the best. But Mitsubishi uses PRIZMATIC lithium ion batteries, which is some kind low performance than cylindrical battery.
In the thread named "GS Yuasa drive battery in the PHEV. Lets discuss.", Trex tries to claim Mitsubishi PHEV uses Long History Battery Manufacturer's product, but I do not get the point as a Owner of Outlander PHEV who concerns about Life Span of Battery according to the choice of Charge, Save, Eco and Overnight grid charge.

I would like to have such a nice guy in US near me as EV Clinic. If so my worries on battery will be half of today. I can rebuild battery after my car loose all power in some time with reasonable cost.

Thank you for giving me a motive to search around in internet world of battery, even though they are too much difficult to understand.

 

[littlescrote]

I would not connect any driving mode or overnight charging with any difference in battery life, good or bad. The power involved with charging (Ac)nis so small as to not be a concern compared to the power that the battery supplies and receives during driving.

Also, the difference in charging rate (power) between normal, Save and Charge is absolutely zero. It's the time in charge or discharge that differs. Normal just continuously depletes it, Charge continually tries to charge it, and Save is in between. Nothing more complicated than that.

 

[Woon Chung]

I would not connect any driving mode or overnight charging with any difference in battery life, good or bad. The power involved with charging (Ac)nis so small as to not be a concern compared to the power that the battery supplies and receives during driving.

Also, the difference in charging rate (power) between normal, Save and Charge is absolutely zero. It's the time in charge or discharge that differs. Normal just continuously depletes it, Charge continually tries to charge it, and Save is in between. Nothing more complicated than that.

What a great answer that simplifies the the burden of choice which looks like a stone of Sisyphus to me. But anyhow, I have to burn gasoline under charge mode from time to time with ease(I am not serious anymore) because my driving distance is too short for the computer runs the ICE by itself. Otherwise, computer will say "My Fuel is dirty".