Is Outlander the only PHEV without EV button?

[anko]

... I have no problem with people wanting changes to the car, just with outrage that it does not behave the way they wanted when it is reasonably easy to predict how it would behave. I've been driving Priuses for more than ten years - the Outlander behaves exactly as I had expected before we bought it - and that was on the strength of reading the brochure.

Actually, having just been out in the Outlander to take my wife to the next town, it occurs to me that our previous Prius ownership is possibly the root cause of the difference between my view of the Outlander and that of Anko and PolishPilot. We bought the Outlander expecting to get a larger, faster, 4WD Prius - and that is what we have. As a bonus, it is capable of quite a few more miles on battery than the Prius under the right circumstances - hence, we are satisfied with the car as-is. I certainly would not refuse some additional electric range if it were offered free of charge, but the car is currently meeting my expectations.

Outrage? Where do you see outrage?

When I bought mine, there wasn't any brochure. Many others in the Netherlands bought it when there was a brochure. It says: "when it gets extremely cold, the engine may be started to assist the electrical heater". Please tell me, in your opinion, what would you call extremely cold? To me, extremely cold would be -10 deg C or worse. But apparently, for Mitsubishi +7 deg C is extremely cold :roll:

But forget about that. It is not about expectations or disappointments. It is about hoping to unleash the full environmental potential of the car. And that is more than we get now. I am not bitching about the car. I am disappointed with Mitsubishi in the Netherlands that says: we understand what you are saying and we will take it into consideration for future models. I have asked them if there was any reason why it could not be retrofitted to existing cars via a SW update. They didn't even try to come up with a reason. Mitsubishi has benefitted enormously from the tax incentives. I feel that they have a moral obligation to 'do something in return'.

It is great to hear that you are happy with the car because it has the same flaws as you old Prius or Prii had several years ago, but that is no reason to dispute other peoples right to aim higher. But yet, every time somebody comes with a reason why it would be nice to have it, you or the next guy tells us that we should not complain about it and should have read the brochure. Okay, you were smarter than all of us. Can we now please continue to dwell on how nice it would have been if ...

 

[PolishPilot]

Lets ask the guy: PolishPilot, what do you really want? Just a usable EV Only mode or does it have to be an EV button?

I want ICE to start only when it is absolutely necessary,,
it means when the battery is empty,
and not e.g. for heating the car
and I want a button to enforce it.

I always thought the EV button is the one to do it.

 

[anko]

Lets ask the guy: PolishPilot, what do you really want? Just a usable EV Only mode or does it have to be an EV button?

I want ICE to start only when it is absolutely necessary,,
it means when the battery is empty,
and not e.g. for heating the car
and I want a button to enforce it.

I always thought the EV button is the one to do it.

So if the engine would not fire as long as you keep ECO mode enabled (provided the battery is not flat), that would be fine too? Or if you had to engage Save or charge mode before the engine would start?

 

[PolishPilot]

I like the idea to use as little fossil fuel as possible, rather than just 'not as much as my previous car'. Burning fuel in a way that adds value is one thing. Wasting fuel in a way that doesn't add value is in my opinion sort of a crime against nature. Especially if it can be fixed easily.

.... But the engine never reached the temperature at which the valve would have been opened. Therefor, it was a total waste of fuel and an unnecessary cold start.

Spot on!

 

[PolishPilot]

...
So if the engine would not fire as long as you keep ECO mode enabled (provided the battery is not flat), that would be fine too? Or if you had to engage Save or charge mode before the engine would start?

You can call it "Eco", "Pure", "EV", whatever you wish.

It just have to prevent ICE from starting.

On top of all other arguments mentioned before,
the no ICE zones in the cities are there and will be spreading.
You have to be able to stop ICE from running, this way or another.

 

[anko]

...
So if the engine would not fire as long as you keep ECO mode enabled (provided the battery is not flat), that would be fine too? Or if you had to engage Save or charge mode before the engine would start?

You can call it "Eco", "Pure", "EV", whatever you wish.

It just have to prevent ICE from starting.

On top of all other arguments mentioned before,
the no ICE zones in the cities are there and will be spreading.
You have to be able to stop ICE from running, this way or another.

Right. That's what I thought. I see it the same way. Don't care for an EV button. Just want to be able to prevent the engine from firing (when realistically possible)

 

[Marksuk]

I can where this is going and I can appreciate it up to a point... This is going nowhere.
It hasnt got an EV button. What you get and what you want are two different things, its not going to happen so just live with it and stop thinking "what if".
If an EV is such a priority you should have just bought one instead.

 

[anko]

I can where this is going and I can appreciate it up to a point... This is going nowhere.
It hasnt got an EV button. What you get and what you want are two different things, its not going to happen so just live with it and stop thinking "what if".

Apparently, you want to stop this discussion. What you get and what you want are two different things, its not going to happen so just live with it and stop thinking "what if". ;-)

Seriously. You have accepted all this for a fact and that is great for you. So, why not simply back out of the discussion and allow the people that are not done with it to continue? Nobody makes you to read it or tells you to appreciate it, right?

If an EV is such a priority you should have just bought one instead.

If you do want to participate in the discussion, please don't simply ignore arguments given by others. Why should I not expect EV behaviour from an EV, simply because it is a hybrid next to an EV? If you read carefully, you can see the priority is not an EV as such (that would be very silly, wouldn't it) but EV mode. That is something completely different.

 

[greendwarf]

But the engine never reached the temperature at which the valve would have been opened. Therefor, it was a total waste of fuel and an unnecessary cold start.

How do you know that?

 

[user 258]

But the engine never reached the temperature at which the valve would have been opened. Therefor, it was a total waste of fuel and an unnecessary cold start.

How do you know that?

As a guess he has an OBDII reader connected. I have one too.
Kind regards,
Mark

 

[anko]

Indeed

 

[NAPpy]

Guys, I have the solution..... Move to Australia where it is warmer. Wife drives 25km into work and 25km back without the ICE firing up once! :twisted:

 

[greendwarf]

On top of all other arguments mentioned before,
the no ICE zones in the cities are there and will be spreading.

All the more reason for the car to "protect" the battery charge for use later by using the ICE on start-up for heating.

 

[maby]

On top of all other arguments mentioned before,
the no ICE zones in the cities are there and will be spreading.

All the more reason for the car to "protect" the battery charge for use later by using the ICE on start-up for heating.

I think you would have to question the suitability of a car with an EV range as low as 15 miles in cold weather for use in a zero emissions zone even if it did have an "EV" button!

 

[anko]

On top of all other arguments mentioned before,
the no ICE zones in the cities are there and will be spreading.

All the more reason for the car to "protect" the battery charge for use later by using the ICE on start-up for heating.

Right. This would be valid if the car knew where I was and where I was going and would take that into account. But it doesn't. Solid arguments keep getting ignored, so I'll repeat this one:
What if you live in a "no ICE zone"? Just a case of bad luck?

Of staying closer to your own argument: if your morning commute is into a "no ICE zone", your evening commute will very likely be on "out of that same no ICE zone". How do I get out of the zone, when your car decides to fire up the engine to save battery charge for later? As the car doesn't know what is best, we need a way of toiling it what's best.

 

[anko]

On top of all other arguments mentioned before,
the no ICE zones in the cities are there and will be spreading.

All the more reason for the car to "protect" the battery charge for use later by using the ICE on start-up for heating.

I think you would have to question the suitability of a car with an EV range as low as 15 miles in cold weather for use in a zero emissions zone even if it did have an "EV" button!

Is this meant to be another argument against having an EV only mode or EV button? Or just an OT remark on the side? I think we kind of established that your driving pattern is quite different from the pattern the car excels at / was designed for. And that for this reason it would not bring you much. But many people would be entirely happy with having a "15 miles no ICE" range in the cold.

 

[maby]

...
Is this meant to be another argument against having an EV only mode or EV button? Or just an OT remark on the side? I think we kind of established that your driving pattern is quite different from the pattern the car excels at / was designed for. And that for this reason it would not bring you much. But many people would be entirely happy with having a "15 miles no ICE" range in the cold.

It's a (not entirely OT) comment on the side. It is actually possible that I could find myself travelling in a zero emissions zone at some point in the future - I do occasionally commute into London for work and I would not be surprised if some London mayor were to convert the current Congestion Charging zone into a zero emissions zone and expand it. If that were the case, and if there were a significant penalty for letting the petrol engine fire up, then I would think very carefully before taking a car with such a short EV range in.

Having worked closely with Transport for London on related projects, I doubt they will want to install the sophisticated emissions detection equipment required to verify that a petrol hybrid is not burning petrol. They will set the rules for who is allowed in to only permit vehicles that are likely to observe the ban on petrol and short EV range PHEVs will simply not be allowed past the perimeter.

Despite appearances to the contrary, I do understand your wish for a pure EV option - even if I don't share it. But I do maintain that, for most people, tweaking the firmware on the current generation of Outlander (or, for that matter, almost any other PHEV currently in production) is not much of an answer - the vehicle needs to have a realistic EV range that is enough to support a full day of normal use within the zero emissions zone under all conditions. An Outlander in the summer would just about manage that in a slightly extended London Congestion Charge zone, but the range in winter could be very tight. As you quite rightly said in response to greendwarf above, it is the resident of the zone that is the most critical. Commuting into a zone, as I would be, the Outlander is ok provided the total distance travelled in the zone can be covered on battery - assume a winter worst case of around 15 miles and I could commute to just about anywhere in the congestion charging zone, park up for the day and get out before I run out of charge - though it could be a bit tight at times. Someone living in the zone and, potentially wanting to move around it, will need a greater range. When they bring out the Mk2 Outlander PHEV with an EV range of 50 or 60 miles in the winter, then the EV button will be a lot easier to justify.

 

[jdsx]

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before (I did go back to the top of the thread but lost the will to live somewhere on page 4 :lol: ), but I see from another forum that, regarding the LEAF Eco button, 'I think it restricts climate control to 3kw'. Clearly the LEAF doesn't need an EV button :lol: but a) would something like this help us obtain what we're after (excluding maby, obvs), and b) would/could it be made available via a software update? Discuss! :mrgreen:

That is what the "Eco" button does.

In my opinion, that is exactly what the Eco button does not do. I can, by judicious use of techniques described here and on other forums (fora?), limit the use of ICE by keeping a close eye on the energy monitor - raising the desired temp when the energy monitor tells me I am using more than 3kW, lowering it if I see the monitor rising to 4.5kW. But IMO Mitsubishi could easily make the ECO button tell the 'Air Conditioning' (Mitsubishi's designation - they really mean 'heating') not to use more than 4kW for heating when the Eco button is pressed (EDIT: this may need qualification if outside temp is -10 or something.... :lol: )

 

[maby]

...

In my opinion, that is exactly what the Eco button does not do. I can, by judicious use of techniques described here and on other forums (fora?), limit the use of ICE by keeping a close eye on the energy monitor - raising the desired temp when the energy monitor tells me I am using more than 3kW, lowering it if I see the monitor rising to 4.5kW. But IMO Mitsubishi could easily make the ECO button tell the 'Air Conditioning' (Mitsubishi's designation - they really mean 'heating') not to use more than 4kW for heating when the Eco button is pressed (EDIT: this may need qualification if outside temp is -10 or something.... :lol: )

I don't know what the actual parameters are, but the ECO button does modify the operation of the AC to reduce its energy consumption. It is true that the focus is on improving fuel consumption, not eliminating it - Mitsubishi have never made any claims of a zero emissions capability for the car, just reduced running costs. The ECO button also moderates acceleration in order to improve fuel consumption and you can, via the remote control application, determine whether or not the AC is controlled in ECO mode.

 

[anko]

.. make the ECO button tell the 'Air Conditioning' (Mitsubishi's designation - they really mean 'heating') not to use more than 4kW for heating when the Eco button is pressed ...

How do you know it is Heating they meen and not Air Conditioning? I think they meen Air Conditioning.