Fuel economy and how to save fuel. What can we agree on.?

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I wonder, why is it that I so totally fail when it comes to relaying my message? :oops: ;)

Seriously, I am not talking / thinking about an isolated scenario and I am not simplifying matters. I am not suggesting you should leave the motorway with lower SOC than needed. For argument sake, let's look at the most extreme case: you want to leave the motorway with as much charge as possible so you can cross all of London in EV mode (is that possible?). Then there are basically two approaches to achieve this:

1. Hit Save as soon as you reach the motorway (your approach).
2. Use up the available charge on the motorway and hit Charge well before leaving the motorway, allowing the car to rebuild the so desired SOC (my approach).

The first scenario results in a long series of small oscillations (between the SOC at which you hit Save and that same SOC + 1.5%) . The second scenario results in one huge oscillation (from more than 90% to 30% and back to more than 90%), with maybe (if the stretch of motorway is long enough) a series of small oscillations in the middle section (between 30 and 31.5%). Which approach you take does not make a difference when it comes to the amount of energy needed to travel the distance. In principle, it also does not make a difference when it comes to the amount of time driven in EV mode. In comparison, you can climb 5 flights of stairs at once and then descent 5 flights of stairs (2nd approach) or you can climb and descent 1 flight tof stairs 5 times (1st approach). Or do it totally random. The amount of stairs climbed (time spent in parallel mode) and descended (time spent in EV mode) must be exactly the same in each approach, as you eventually end up at the same level. Also, the amount of energy needed to do this is the same. So far, there is not much difference.

In both scenarios, there are periods of EV driving, at first glance totalling up to the same amount of EV driving. Assuming speed is a fixed parameter on that stretch of motorway, we can not do much to change the efficiency of the vehicle in EV mode. But, as I have tried to explain, I strongly believe that we can impact the efficiency of the vehicle in parallel hybrid mode.

This afternoon, on the way back home from work I did a small test.
- Engaged Save mode at 86.5%. Engine load hovered around 50 - 55%. The power fed into the battery was pretty stable at approx. 3.6 kW.
- Engaged Save mode at 74%. Engine load was a up a few %. The power fed into the battery was more like 5.7 kW.
- Engaged Save mode at 44%. Engine load had gone up to around 75%. Power fed into the battery was as high as 18 kW.

For sure, when the load of the engine went up, so did the instantaneous fuel consumption. But not by the same amount. We all know (I think) that the efficiency of an engine increases when the load increases: the amount of usable mechanical kWh produced per liter of fuel burned increases with the load. So, at lower SOC, the periods of EV driving are equally efficient but during the periods of parallel driving the fuel is spent more efficiently. What does this translate to?

At lower SOC / higher engine load, it takes far less time to increase SOC by 1.5%. Imagine what charging the battery with 18 kW instead of 3.6 kW will do for the time it takes to gain 1.5% SOC. Shorter periods of engine on automatically translate into more periods of engine off.
 
Ozukus said:
Trex said:
Can we agree on these points?

Have we missed any that we can agree on?

If someone can help with wording. I probably need it . :oops:

Regards Trex.

You forgot point 11

11. Don't let the other half drive the car, who won't execute points 1-10 unless by accident :?

:lol: Ok point noted and now included. I totally agree.

How to save Fuel:

1. Try to be in Ev mode as much as possible. Use the grid charge as much as possible and when accelerating try to keep the petrol motor off.

2. Avoid slow speed series mode as much as possible. Ie use your SOC around slower areas.

3. Avoid using the heater especially on certain models of the phev unless the petrol motor was going to run anyway because of length of trip.

4. Keep your tyres inflated to the recommended pressure.

5. Faster speeds use more fuel. Parallel or slow speed series mode but see No 2.

6. Do not carry around excess weight not needed for the trip.

7. Use Eco mode.

8. Use cruise control or ACC if you have it.

9. Use the speed limiter.

10. Maximise your EV range by using regen and coasting where appropriate.

11. Don't let the other half drive the car, who won't execute points 1-10 unless by accident.

Can we agree on these points?

Have we missed any that we can agree on?

If someone can help with wording. I probably need it . :oops:

Regards Trex.
 
anko said:
I wonder, why is it that I so totally fail when it comes to relaying my message? :oops: ;)

....

OK - now I understand you! I don't think you said anything about using the "Charge" button in your original message!

As is probably the case for most usage scenarios for the PHEV, the truth is down to a fairly complex calculation that takes into account the cost of electricity, the cost of petrol and the distances travelled. We would need far more detailed performance data than we currently have to be able to do the sums accurately.
 
maby said:
anko said:
I wonder, why is it that I so totally fail when it comes to relaying my message? :oops: ;)

....

OK - now I understand you! I don't think you said anything about using the "Charge" button in your original message!
Hmmmm .... I think I did. Several times in several discussions we've had on this topic. http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1882&p=20698&hilit=rebuild#p20698 being just one of these times ;) Never mind. Glad it is clear what I meant now.

maby said:
As is probably the case for most usage scenarios for the PHEV, the truth is down to a fairly complex calculation that takes into account the cost of electricity, the cost of petrol and the distances travelled. We would need far more detailed performance data than we currently have to be able to do the sums accurately.
I don't see it. Can you explain how these parameters would effect my analysis? Other than when EV driving on GRID power becomes more expensive then burning fuel. But when that happens, all bets are off, as the aim for many would no longer be to save fuel :mrgreen:

There is one other thing though, that makes matters way, way more complicated, IMHO. And that is heating on models with electric heaters. Postponing the start of the engine means you are depending on the electric heater for a longer period of time. And this may negatively impact my analysis, as electric warmth is much more expensive (100% more) than engine warmth, in a scenario where starting of the engine was not postponed. :eek:
 
anko said:
............... Use up the available charge on the motorway and hit Charge well before leaving the motorway, allowing the car to rebuild the so desired SOC (my approach).....

I am one (of many I suspect) who lurk around the 'Tech' section often with a permanent headache admiring the wizardry of the main posters while trying to understand the more technical discussions.

In my case my primary objective (in anticipation of actually getting my car) has been trying to form a reasonably simple strategy in terms of use of the various power options.

I have to say I'm pleased to say that I actually believe (and at the moment that's important to me) that the above statement is likely to be a very sensible solution.

Most of my driving is local and within pure EV range but living in Derbyshire we do engage in longer trips including the 150 miles or so down to London so now for me the only missing piece of the jigsaw is 'how far out would I need to hit 'charge' to replenish the battery (as far as is reasonably practical) if it had already been depleted such that I was running on petrol power alone?'

Jim B
 
Now that is a very good Q. I think it is a matter of trial and error. First time out, hit Charge with 100 miles to go. That should be more than enough. I won't be optimal, but it will still be better than hitting Save immediately, as your average SOC will still be lower. Assuming my analysis holds, that is ;-). Note how long (how many miles) it takes before SOC is where you wanted it to be upon exiting the motorway. If it is 60 miles, next time out, hit Charge with 80 miles to go or so. If it is again 60, next time try 70. And so on ....
 
Well as a non-techy, non-engineer, non-mechanical type, just a regular everyday driver, can I offer my tuppence-worth!

Have had the PHEV since 8 September and until last week and about 840miles in had not used any petrol, then had a couple of shortish fast road journey and on each one using the save button, but then noticed all this chatter here and elsewhere about buttons/modes and fuel economy. So, yesterday I decided to try my own little experiment. As you can imagine, 6 weeks, 840 miles and all EV, this is by far the 'normal' set up for us and as we both work from home, commuting is never an issue and the car always gets the chance to get/remain topped up, but yesterday I went from Edinburgh to Elgin, round trip of 380 miles. So, outward trip first 5 miles on EV and then hit save with 19 miles range and did 60 miles on motorway, 95 miles on the A9, 30 miles on B-roads and 10 miles on A96; got to Elgin with EV range of 22miles, average mpg 34.8. Did a bit of EV driving around town and then headed home and did not touch any buttons at all this time. Took same route home and when I got onto the motorway (M90) after 120 miles driving, hit the charge button getting to the outskirts of Edinburgh with an EV range of 12 miles, which was enough to get to my son's to drop him off and then home, pulling into the drive with EV range of 1 and average mpg of 37.6!

Did I save fuel or money?? Don't really know, but when I used to do this exact same return journey in my previous 9+ year old SAAB estate it would be about 100 litres of petrol overall; tank was 60 litre capacity and it was just over a tank and a half. This time it took just over a tank, but the capacity is 40 litres, so I would say 50/55 litres! Now while a diesel vehicle would obviously give me masses more mpg, I do this 3-4 times a year, so it suits me!
 
anko said:
Now that is a very good Q. I think it is a matter of trial and error. First time out, hit Charge with 100 miles to go. That should be more than enough. I won't be optimal, but it will still be better than hitting Save immediately, as your average SOC will still be lower. Assuming my analysis holds, that is ;-). Note how long (how many miles) it takes before SOC is where you wanted it to be upon exiting the motorway. If it is 60 miles, next time out, hit Charge with 80 miles to go or so. If it is again 60, next time try 70. And so on ....

Thanks Anko, I guess I knew that I'd have to actually do some work on it myself :) .

We'll just have to have more trips to London and enjoy driving around the congestion zone without charge (once I get registered).

Thanks again.

Jim B
 
Claymore said:
...

Thanks Anko, I guess I knew that I'd have to actually do some work on it myself :) .

We'll just have to have more trips to London and enjoy driving around the congestion zone without charge (once I get registered).

Thanks again.

Jim B

I am so very pleased that you posted that! It made me realise that I have failed to renew the registration this year - would have been heading towards a big fine if I had driven into London!
 
anko said:
Now that is a very good Q. I think it is a matter of trial and error. First time out, hit Charge with 100 miles to go. That should be more than enough. I won't be optimal, but it will still be better than hitting Save immediately, as your average SOC will still be lower. Assuming my analysis holds, that is ;-). Note how long (how many miles) it takes before SOC is where you wanted it to be upon exiting the motorway. If it is 60 miles, next time out, hit Charge with 80 miles to go or so. If it is again 60, next time try 70. And so on ....

Well obviously no one listens to me around here. :roll: :lol:

I have said many times approx 1/2 hour for 1/2 a charge. Next approx. 35% takes another 1/2 hour on my phev ie approx 85% in approx 1 hour. :geek:

This is at speeds of 100-110kph.

But that is just my phev. :cool:

Regards Trex
 
I posted some similar recharge times in my Aussie road trip thread. Mine took approx 150km to fully recharge the battery from empty. Up to half way on the battery was better than 1km EV per km driven. I have some numbers on paper, but never graphed the data. May need to do this again with proper logging.
 
Trex said:
How many times do I have to I have to say it. Approx. 1/2 hour for 1/2 a charge. Next approx. 35% takes another 1/2 hour on my phev ie 85% in 1 hour.
And you asked if I didn't mean 8 kW max instead of 18 kW max as max charge power? Even if it was 8 kW flat, the car couldn't achieve what you have experienced ;)
 
gwatpe said:
I posted some similar recharge times in my Aussie road trip thread. Mine took approx 150km to fully recharge the battery from empty. Up to half way on the battery was better than 1km EV per km driven. I have some numbers on paper, but never graphed the data. May need to do this again with proper logging.

Mine does not want to go past 85% (14 bars). If sitting still the motor stops at that point and the charging slows down that much especially above 12 bars (out of 16bars) I find it not worth bothering going that high.

Regards Trex.
 
anko said:
Trex said:
How many times do I have to I have to say it. Approx. 1/2 hour for 1/2 a charge. Next approx. 35% takes another 1/2 hour on my phev ie 85% in 1 hour.
And you asked if I didn't mean 8 kW max instead of 18 kW max as max charge power? Even if it was 8 kW flat, the car couldn't achieve what you have experienced ;)


18 kw. :eek: I do not expect it to be that high and will definitely need to see the graphs. :lol:

Regards Trex.
 
anko said:
Trex said:
How many times do I have to I have to say it. Approx. 1/2 hour for 1/2 a charge. Next approx. 35% takes another 1/2 hour on my phev ie 85% in 1 hour.
And you asked if I didn't mean 8 kW max instead of 18 kW max as max charge power? Even if it was 8 kW flat, the car couldn't achieve what you have experienced ;)


But thinking on that a little more. A 8.4kwh usable pack x 85% my phev charges to (in a hour) gives 7.14kwh. 8kw for a hour looking good at flat rate with small losses.

But it does not charge at a flat rate and I get 50% in 1/2 hr = .5 x 8.4 usable battery capacity = 4.2kwh which would take 8.4kw x 1/2 hr no losses. Say 20% losses =10kw.

Figures of 18kw .Still don't think so. That is a lot of losses. :eek: Or a lot of reduction in the charging rate from start to 50% capacity that I do not see on my phev.

Yes I need to see the graph. :D

Regards Trex.
 
Working on it. But, do not forget: this 18 is rather is the upper limit of what I have seen.

Charge power is the lowest of:
A - what the battery is willing to accept at current SOC
B - what the engine has to spare (75% of max engine power at current RPM - what is needed for driving)

With high SOC, the lowest value is mostly A, resulting in a low but rather constant charge current. With low SOC, the lowest value is mostly B, resulting in a high, constant engine load and a not so constant, but in average higher charge current.

When driving down the off ramp of a bridge or when driving with a slight tail wind with high SOC, you will typically see the engine taking it easy, as The battery does not allow it to generate too much excess power. Doing the same with low SOC, you will see the engine keep pushing it, generating more excess power. And thus running more efficiently.

Cheers, Anko
 
anko said:
Working on it. But, do not forget: this 18 is rather is the upper limit of what I have seen.

Charge power is the lowest of:
A - what the battery is willing to accept at current SOC
B - what the engine has to spare (75% of max engine power at current RPM - what is needed for driving)

With high SOC, the lowest value is mostly A, resulting in a low but rather constant charge current. With low SOC, the lowest value is mostly B, resulting in a high, constant engine load and a not so constant, but in average higher charge current.

When driving down the off ramp of a bridge or when driving with a slight tail wind with high SOC, you will typically see the engine taking it easy, as The battery does not allow it to generate too much excess power. Doing the same with low SOC, you will see the engine keep pushing it, generating more excess power. And thus running more efficiently.

Cheers, Anko

Yes we would also have to be careful that we not measuring any regen which also goes into the drive battery (sometimes at a far higher rate than the generator output to the battery but usually only for a short period). Do you have the address of the generator output to the battery (if there is such an address) or just the address of the input-output current to-from the drive battery?

I hope you understand what I mean.

Regards Trex.
 
Haha. You are right ... But regen power is even much higher than this and the 18 kW is measured when front motor was idle and rear motor was doing (very) little positive work. So, in normal parallel driving conditions, although power demand for driving was probably rather low at these moments. Stay tuned for a graph ...
 
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