Battery Degradation Issues: I bet you wil suffer from them

[user 457]

I think someone asked what the range of my car was. Well when I first got it I could get 54KM max - somewhere between 50 and 54 driving carefully enough if it wasn’t a heavy aircon day. Now it sits somewhere between 24 and 32. It’s tedious to measure it perfectly as it is a few small trips and the wife isn’t interested in monitoring it. Perhaps I shouldn’t be either.

 

[anko]

It is not a question of what the car was meant for. It's a question of whether it is good for the battery long term.

I am afraid you are mistaken. That IS the question (our little discussion started with)

Bottom line though, PHEVs, with their undersized batteries, weren't meant to be driven around in 100% EV mode on the freeways all the time.

Apparently Mitsubishi does not agree with you. Otherwise they have allowed us to drive 125 km/h in EV mode.

Just because a manufacturer allows for something, doesn't mean it's good for the vehicle. Manufacturer's design and allow for launch control too, for the sake of impressive 0-60 times, but it also reduces vehicle life fast if done often.

When it comes to the other question, I might even agree with you.

 

[STS134]

I know exactly what he is claiming. But it is a bit weird to state that the car was not meant to be driven in EV mode at motorway speeds. As EV mode is the default mode at motorway speeds (and EV mode even occurs when the car is operating in hybrid mode at speeds up to 125 km/h), this is almost the same as stating the car was not meant to be driven at motorway speeds.

What car requires you to push additional buttons in order to stay within intended use?

Fact 1: battery drive top speed is 125/135 kph (2.0L/2.4L)
Fact 2: driving in EV mode anywhere near the battery drive top speed will drain the battery very quickly (meaning high discharge rate)
Fact 3: high discharge rate = lower battery longevity: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/810a/ee30e307fd5b0ffe4768f3461f579aafeac6.pdf

It is not a question of what the car was meant for. It's a question of whether it is good for the battery long term.

Fact 4: The Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid (which has an even smaller battery, around 10-11 kWh), nearly ALWAYS fires up its ICE when it reaches 30 mph, UNLESS it is forced into EV mode. This despite the fact that the vehicle CAN reach the same speed as the Outlander in all EV mode, 125 km/h. I don't think Porsche programmed the vehicle that way just for kicks. The Cayenne S E-Hybrid actually lacks a special Save mode defined the way it is on the Outlander. What it actually does, is define Normal mode as "deplete the battery" mode below 30 mph and "keep charge at the same level" mode at > 30 mph. So it's as if the vehicle does not have a user selectable Save mode but automatically enters Save mode above 30 mph and goes back to Normal mode when speed goes back below that threshold. IMO, a far more sensible way to manage things.

It's no secret that battery longevity is greatly helped by having a large amount of capacity (in both current and total power held) and not using very much of it very often. Even when I use Save mode on the freeways irrespective of charge level, my batteries still take a beating compared to those in a Tesla or Bolt, which first of all almost never see current levels over 1C, and second, only go through about 10-20% of a cycle per day. PHEVs were not meant to be pure EVs. If you drive your PHEV like a pure EV, your battery is going to die very quickly.

 

[Futuresystem]

Like the OP I’m running into major battery degradation issues, yet have only 31,000 klms on my PHEV. (I live near him in Queensland, Australia so have about the same climatic conditions to deal with including a long summer of typically 30C days, and pretty warm nights.)
In the hope that it’s as much to do with incorrect calculations as actual degradation, I’m now trying different strategies to try to slow things down, but especially including always using “save” at above 80 km/h, and fully charging the battery far less often with the aid of a timer. I rarely need the full capacity of the battery so can afford to less than fully charge most nights, though I do a full charge just before using every 2 weeks or so to allow for battery balancing.
It’s only after a full charge that I see a lower SoH appear, though whether my strategy of less than full charge is helping reduce the rate of degradation- it's too early to tell yet.

Although I’m pretty disgusted with Mitsubishi’s input and help on this matter, I figure I might as well do everything possible to try to preserve the SoH of the battery. I’m driving and using the car very differently now than when I first bought it in the hope of looking after the battery.
(My dealer seems to know far less about the vehicle than I know. They are worse than bloody useless! :roll: )
I’m also wondering where this will all lead long term, though at least I’m in warranty, (useless though it may be), till January 2021, as first registration was January 2016 (despite the car being built in June 2014.)

I totally concur with those who believe the high discharge rate directly affects battery life- we are pulling a lot of current from a small battery in pure EV mode. It’s likely not an issue for a short burst, but almost definitely so for longer time periods. Basically every type of battery on the planet hates high current discharge for any period of time, and I see no reason why these batteries would be any different.

Cheers
David

 

[anko]

Fact 4: The Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid (which has an even smaller battery, around 10-11 kWh), nearly ALWAYS fires up its ICE when it reaches 30 mph, UNLESS it is forced into EV mode.

So, the Cayenne has a different intended use than the PHEV. With an EV range of just 20 km I am not all that surprised.

 

[elm70]

Like the OP I’m running into major battery degradation issues, yet have only 31,000 klms on my PHEV. (I live near him in Queensland, Australia so have about the same climatic conditions to deal with including a long summer of typically 30C days, and pretty warm nights.)
In the hope that it’s as much to do with incorrect calculations as actual degradation, I’m now trying different strategies to try to slow things down, but especially including always using “save” at above 80 km/h, and fully charging the battery far less often with the aid of a timer. I rarely need the full capacity of the battery so can afford to less than fully charge most nights, though I do a full charge just before using every 2 weeks or so to allow for battery balancing.
It’s only after a full charge that I see a lower SoH appear, though whether my strategy of less than full charge is helping reduce the rate of degradation- it's too early to tell yet.

Although I’m pretty disgusted with Mitsubishi’s input and help on this matter, I figure I might as well do everything possible to try to preserve the SoH of the battery. I’m driving and using the car very differently now than when I first bought it in the hope of looking after the battery.
(My dealer seems to know far less about the vehicle than I know. They are worse than bloody useless! :roll: )
I’m also wondering where this will all lead long term, though at least I’m in warranty, (useless though it may be), till January 2021, as first registration was January 2016 (despite the car being built in June 2014.)

I totally concur with those who believe the high discharge rate directly affects battery life- we are pulling a lot of current from a small battery in pure EV mode. It’s likely not an issue for a short burst, but almost definitely so for longer time periods. Basically every type of battery on the planet hates high current discharge for any period of time, and I see no reason why these batteries would be any different.

Cheers
David

What is your current SOH ...

Back in August 2017 ... you wrote

Anyway, we are now at 21,000 klms and showing 35.1

So 35.1Ah .. that was 92.2% SOH

How worst could it be after further 10k km ?

I would expect you are now at ~ 33Ah .. ~87% SOH .. which is not ideal but not too bad either . especially since your car is from June 2014 ... so the battery is over 4y old now.

 

[STS134]

Bottom line though, PHEVs, with their undersized batteries, weren't meant to be driven around in 100% EV mode on the freeways all the time.

Apparently Mitsubishi does not agree with you. Otherwise they have allowed us to drive 125 km/h in EV mode.

Car manufacturers will quote you a lot of stuff to sell you a car. Porsche says their Cayenne Turbo S will go 0-60 mph in 3.7s and their Cayenne S E-Hybrid will go 0-60 in 4.7s. Both of these vehicles will, in fact, do this. But guess what happens to your engine and/or your batteries, if you do this every single time? Just because you can doesn't mean you should do it frequently.

In my previous car, I was once trying to set a record driving from the San Francisco Bay Area to Anaheim, CA. During one trip, I was going down Interstate 5 as fast as I could, passing cars whenever possible and accelerating to the maximum (accelerator pressed to the floor) whenever I got into a gap in traffic. I was frequently up to and over 100 mph/160 km/h on that trip. I even used WOT (wide open throttle) for about 45-60 seconds continuously while climbing up the Grapevine section of Interstate 5. And when I got back home, I was shocked. Over a QUART of oil (0.94L) had disappeared from my oil reservoir in a mere 730 miles/1175 km. So yeah, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Imagine if I had driven like this for the entire life of the car. Heck, imagine if I had driven like this both ways instead of just one; I may have lost 1.5 to 2 quarts of oil instead of just 1. But I did set a new personal record of around 4 hours and 32 minutes.

A few years before, I had done this same drive, and set my previous record of 4 hours, 36 minutes, and I barely lost any oil. You want to know what was different? On that drive, there was almost no traffic, and I cruised down at a nearly consistent speed. In setting my new record, I kept getting stuck behind slow trucks and cars doing 65 to 75 mph, and I had to then make up for it by doing 95 to 105 mph at other times. Turns out, using WOT is tough on the engine. Who would have guessed?

The situation with the Outlander isn't the first time, and certainly won't be the last, that I've seen engineers put dumb default settings into something (namely, not kicking in the ICE at above 50 mph/80 km/h unless you are in EV priority mode and warning the user that doing this will kill the battery quickly) that you have to override manually.

Fact 4: The Porsche Cayenne S E-Hybrid (which has an even smaller battery, around 10-11 kWh), nearly ALWAYS fires up its ICE when it reaches 30 mph, UNLESS it is forced into EV mode.

So, the Cayenne has a different intended use than the PHEV. With an EV range of just 20 km I am not all that surprised.

How so? The batteries in the Cayenne play the same role as those in the Outlander: improves efficiency in the city and in stop-and-go traffic, allows you to park in EV charging spaces, etc. But too small to really be used effectively on the freeway without killing their lifespan.

Something like the Honda Clarity has a battery that's barely big enough for use on the freeway (47 mi/75 km all electric range). Assuming a 30% buffer, that's 67 mi/108 km total range, and the battery size is quoted as 17 kWh. Draw more than 17 kW from it, and you're over 1C discharge rate. It's do-able, if you don't go too fast, and don't have hills. Same with the Volt, with a quoted 53 mi/85 km of EV range and 18.4 kWh battery pack. Cayenne and Outlander have both smaller batteries and a larger cross sectional area to push through the atmosphere. This causes the battery to discharge way too quickly and kills the lifespan. Fortunately, that is why we have the ICE.

 

[anko]

In my previous car, I was once trying to set a record driving from the San Francisco Bay Area to Anaheim, CA. During one trip, I was going down Interstate 5 as fast as I could, passing cars whenever possible and accelerating to the maximum (accelerator pressed to the floor) whenever I got into a gap in traffic. I was frequently up to and over 100 mph/160 km/h on that trip. I even used WOT (wide open throttle) for about 45-60 seconds continuously while climbing up the Grapevine section of Interstate 5. And when I got back home, I was shocked. Over a QUART of oil (0.94L) had disappeared from my oil reservoir in a mere 730 miles/1175 km. So yeah, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Imagine if I had driven like this for the entire life of the car. Heck, imagine if I had driven like this both ways instead of just one; I may have lost 1.5 to 2 quarts of oil instead of just 1. But I did set a new personal record of around 4 hours and 32 minutes.

Common, you cannot seriously compare this to type of driving along with the rest of traffic on them motorway. What you describe here sounds like a rather idiotic adventure, where driving along with other traffic on the motorway is something people simply tend to do.

I can understand that you keep arguing that high (dis)charge rates may be bad for the battery. I can understand why you would decide for yourself to use the car in a non default setting, to prevent these high (dis)charge rates. I can even imagine you have a valid point. But I do not understand why you insist in telling other people on how to interpret Mitsubishi's intentions for this car. Sorry.

 

[STS134]

Common, you cannot seriously compare this to type of driving along with the rest of traffic on them motorway. What you describe here sounds like a rather idiotic adventure, where driving along with other traffic on the motorway is something people simply tend to do.

I can understand that you keep arguing that high (dis)charge rates may be bad for the battery. I can understand why you would decide for yourself to use the car in a non default setting, to prevent these high (dis)charge rates. I can even imagine you have a valid point. But I do not understand why you insist in telling other people on how to interpret Mitsubishi's intentions for this car. Sorry.

Mitsubishi's just trying to sell cars. It's no different than quoting an impressive 0-60 time to sell a car. But what they've done is basically like giving it a puny 50 HP engine (but in this case, it's a small battery) and forcing you to floor it all the time just to keep up with other traffic on the freeeways. Sure, it'll do it, but it won't last very long if you do.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've NEVER seen engineers put dumb default settings on a product before?

 

[anko]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've NEVER seen engineers put dumb default settings on a product before?

I am an engineer myself, so yes I have :lol: But I never said that I hadn't. I just say: even if their intentions were unfortunate, it doesn't mean they weren't their intentions.

 

[HHL]

The problem with Apps like watchdog is that they create undue stress to owners. I wonder how many (I know there are a few) would really have noticed any battery degradation in day to day use if it hadn't been for that app....
My battery, according to the watchdog, sits at around 85% and I honestly can't say that I have noticed any real reduction in range, it seems to be (subjectively) just the same as when I first got the car 3 years ago. The other thing to remember is of course that at the current state of development, batteries WILL degrade after x number of cycles... that's just the way and it is best to just get over it! The real issue if one wants to keep the car long term is how useful is the car with the battery at say 50%. In my case it would still be ok. Would it be reasonable to replace it? That really depends on the cost and judging by what manufacturers charge for for even simple items... it could run into millions :roll:

 

[anko]

batteries WILL degrade after x number of cycles... that's just the way and it is best to just get over it!

That is a bit 'unfair' when, at the same time, you say:

can't say that I have noticed any real reduction in range

and

how useful is the car with the battery at say 50%. In my case it would still be ok.

Apparently, you have nothing to get over. But others do :idea:

 

[elm70]

I agree with HHL ... that by knowing all the detail via the DOG ... we get "additional stress" .. since we get a visibility over battery degradation that otherwise we will not really see

The Guessometer and the battery indicator is so unprecise, that without a proper tool, we will be left with a battery SOH ready with an error of +/- 25% .. big enough for make us blind

The real range in EV, has so many factors ... driving style, using of B5 vs B0 bs B2 ... outside temperature ... battery temperature ... using of AC .. using of electric cabin heater ... etc .. so we can see EV range even from now as low as 20km and as high as 60km

Still ... having the DOG allow us to understand in which condition the battery degrade faster, we can check if the SOH in the car is real or is fake due to a reset or different type of trick .. etc etc

Anyhow ... based on my analysis ... this is what I did find out:

Using B5 does age faster the battery
Alternate Charge and EV mode on motorway ... does age faster the battery
Keep fully charge the car does age faster the battery
Keep the battery exposed for long time to temperate above 30/35c does age faster the battery
Once the Lithium battery got "aged" .. there is no procedure for get it better ... there is no "re-conditioning procedure" ... like on lead acid battery

So .. ideally we should drive the car in automatic mode (not using and B setting, and not using the charge button too) ... and ideally we should avoid this car in hot climate country like Australia or Israel , etc

PS: About B5 vs B0 ... in urban usage in B5 we can get 20% extra range ... so using B0 it equivalent to have the battery with 20% lower SOH ... but ... if the trip is well inside the EV range, it is well worth to spend 20% extra in electricity and while preserving the battery

PPS: Other thing I discover .. is that if the PHEV lose a lot of range and SOC while parked and unused ... the battery is worst , possibly much worst then the SOH from the DOG is reporting ... and this is my case now, which become even more extreme after they update the firmware ... interesting .. the firmware was already not perfect .. but after the update it is even worst

 

[HHL]

batteries WILL degrade after x number of cycles... that's just the way and it is best to just get over it!

That is a bit 'unfair' when, at the same time, you say:

can't say that I have noticed any real reduction in range

and

how useful is the car with the battery at say 50%. In my case it would still be ok.

Apparently, you have nothing to get over. But others do :idea:

Well, I would say it will probably take a fair while to get to 50%, but one of the facts I haven't considered with this car and which is becoming obvious, is that the battery actually works much harder than in a full EV in normal use. That is, commuting beyond the battery range every day will cycle the battery much more than an EV with say a 40kW battery and doing 80-100km a day. The trade-off is of course that the PHEV will still have pretty much the same total range , where the EV will suffer a significant reduction once the battery has degraded to that level.

 

[wonkiestauto]

hi people new to this as have just purchased a phev 2016 hello to all just thought i'd let you know when i bought mine i had read a lot on forums about this issue and was concerned so i took mine to a local independant garage to check the battery to my luck they have the latest in diagnostic gear and just updated a month ago the tech was very helpful when i explained about battery smoothing and bmu reset hed plugged in and hey presto they could do it they charged me a couple of hours lab £80 which i was more than happy to pay a full print out and they had done a full checkover of the phev for me so just a note ALWAYS CHECK YOUR LOCAL INDY GARAGE first miles are up and they did a valet and fully charged it for me

 

[Bert]

OP lives in Australia so likely to be hotter summers than in most of Europe - even with the cooling in the PHEV, it may be the same problem that the Leaf had in the US desert states. Even if daily re-charging to full has brought up the maximum effect life earlier than expected perhaps a similar class action is the way forward, if the car was never suitable for the market.

BTW what is current range? With the figures given the OP has used very little petrol is he not "in pocket" despite the degradation?

It's definitely not the weather or heat stress. I have multiple contacts from Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany and other 'cooler' countries reporting the same issues.

Mine had a BMU reset last year as it was down to 80% after just 3.5yrs. Within 10 months the capacity slipped under 80% again and Mitsubishi has now, again, confirmed that the battery has degraded (or at least the software shows it has degraded).

Range went down form over 50km to now 28km at 76%SOH.

We are close to release this whole story to the media if Mitsubishi does not stick to its promise of 80%SOH over the lifetime of the vehicle. A class action is in work as a legal step forward...

 

[Bert]

hi people new to this as have just purchased a phev 2016 hello to all just thought i'd let you know when i bought mine i had read a lot on forums about this issue and was concerned so i took mine to a local independant garage to check the battery to my luck they have the latest in diagnostic gear and just updated a month ago the tech was very helpful when i explained about battery smoothing and bmu reset hed plugged in and hey presto they could do it they charged me a couple of hours lab £80 which i was more than happy to pay a full print out and they had done a full checkover of the phev for me so just a note ALWAYS CHECK YOUR LOCAL INDY GARAGE first miles are up and they did a valet and fully charged it for me

What diagnostic did they do? A Battery Judgment Report showing each individual cell with voltage?

 

[elm70]

OP lives in Australia so likely to be hotter summers than in most of Europe - even with the cooling in the PHEV, it may be the same problem that the Leaf had in the US desert states. Even if daily re-charging to full has brought up the maximum effect life earlier than expected perhaps a similar class action is the way forward, if the car was never suitable for the market.

BTW what is current range? With the figures given the OP has used very little petrol is he not "in pocket" despite the degradation?

It's definitely not the weather or heat stress. I have multiple contacts from Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany and other 'cooler' countries reporting the same issues.

Mine had a BMU reset last year as it was down to 80% after just 3.5yrs. Within 10 months the capacity slipped under 80% again and Mitsubishi has now, again, confirmed that the battery has degraded (or at least the software shows it has degraded).

Range went down form over 50km to now 28km at 76%SOH.

We are close to release this whole story to the media if Mitsubishi does not stick to its promise of 80%SOH over the lifetime of the vehicle. A class action is in work as a legal step forward...

Strange math indeed ....

Probably a typo

From 50km down to 38km of EV range.

If Mitsubishi decided to replace the battery at 70% SOH ... maybe they have some legal support for their decision.

Anyhow ... if the legal action may allow all PHEV to get guarantee replacement at 80% mark, it will be very welcome ..

 

[Bert]

Sorry no, the range is down to only 28km.

 

[jaapv]

I still remember the time that an engine had to be rebuilt after 100000 to 150000 km. Maybe we should accept that things wear. .,.