Battery Degradation Issues: I bet you wil suffer from them

[anko]

I still remember the time that an engine had to be rebuilt after 100000 to 150000 km. Maybe we should accept that things wear. .,.

I remember the time we all lived in caves. Hang on, I don't, since we made a lot of progress since .

I am pretty sure everybody does accept that things wear, Jaap. It is the amount of wear that bothers people.

 

[STS134]

Well regardless of what Mitsubishi's intentions were, or how stupid their engineers' default settings are, the facts are that if you go through a full cycle (or even multiple cycles) on your battery every day, day after day, it's not going to last very long. This happens to nearly every battery in every cell phone. My cell phone battery is now at around 65% SoH after 2 years. The difference, of course, is that you only expect a cell phone to last 3-5 years, but if you treat the battery in your car the same way, it's going to die after about the same amount of time.

 

[user 1877]

Well regardless of what Mitsubishi's intentions were, or how stupid their engineers' default settings are, the facts are that if you go through a full cycle (or even multiple cycles) on your battery every day, day after day, it's not going to last very long. This happens to nearly every battery in every cell phone. My cell phone battery is now at around 65% SoH after 2 years. The difference, of course, is that you only expect a cell phone to last 3-5 years, but if you treat the battery in your car the same way, it's going to die after about the same amount of time.

If this is true, and I’m not saying it isn’t, Mitsubishi are headed for world of pain warranting that their batteries will have at least 70% battery capacity after 8 years.

 

[jaapv]

I don't think that a cell phone battery is quite the same technology as a car battery.

 

[greendwarf]

[
It's definitely not the weather or heat stress. I have multiple contacts from Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany and other 'cooler' countries reporting the same issues.

...

Whilst this may be true, the problem you describe seems concentrated in Australia. As elm70 points out there are many variables effecting the battery between individual users. For a class action you will need to show that this a problem for the majority of users worldwide (like the VW emissions scandal) and so a manufacturing "fault" or if it disproportionately concerns PHEV in Australia, i.e. that car was never suitable for the market. One other factor, apart from weather, is the different urban density in Australia (and N America) to most of Europe.

I have done 30,000 miles in 4 years mainly in EV in London (2 trips to South of France and one tour of Ireland aside), re-charging to full every night often from half-full (I don't measure battery condition etc.) and still apparently get the same consistent 25 miles range out of the car that I got when new.

Like HHL I'm not bothered now and doubt that I will be in 4 years time, as even if the battery does degrade noticeably, I will still be getting no Congestion Charge, cheap parking, no road tax plus all the money I've saved on petrol to date. :mrgreen:

 

[HHL]

OP lives in Australia so likely to be hotter summers than in most of Europe - even with the cooling in the PHEV, it may be the same problem that the Leaf had in the US desert states. Even if daily re-charging to full has brought up the maximum effect life earlier than expected perhaps a similar class action is the way forward, if the car was never suitable for the market.

BTW what is current range? With the figures given the OP has used very little petrol is he not "in pocket" despite the degradation?

It's definitely not the weather or heat stress. I have multiple contacts from Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany and other 'cooler' countries reporting the same issues.

Mine had a BMU reset last year as it was down to 80% after just 3.5yrs. Within 10 months the capacity slipped under 80% again and Mitsubishi has now, again, confirmed that the battery has degraded (or at least the software shows it has degraded).

Range went down form over 50km to now 28km at 76%SOH.

We are close to release this whole story to the media if Mitsubishi does not stick to its promise of 80%SOH over the lifetime of the vehicle. A class action is in work as a legal step forward...

The way I read the original statement when the car was first announced here does not PROMISE ANYTHING. It simply said that Mitsubishi EXPECT that the battery retains 80% capacity for the life of the vehicle and that the battery is not a normal service item and not scheduled to be replaced. It also went to some length explaining that there will be degradation due to usage and AGEING. This is very different to giving a warranty that certain conditions will be met. As for the design life of the vehicle, I think most manufacturers work on 8-10 years and around 250,000km.
So, I am not sure a "class action", whatever that will mean, has any chance of doing more than providing a bit of sustenance for some deserving lawyers :lol:

 

[elm70]

Whilst this may be true, the problem you describe seems concentrated in Australia. As elm70 points out there are many variables effecting the battery between individual users. For a class action you will need to show that this a problem for the majority of users worldwide (like the VW emissions scandal) and so a manufacturing "fault" or if it disproportionately concerns PHEV in Australia, i.e. that car was never suitable for the market. One other factor, apart from weather, is the different urban density in Australia (and N America) to most of Europe.

I have done 30,000 miles in 4 years mainly in EV in London (2 trips to South of France and one tour of Ireland aside), re-charging to full every night often from half-full (I don't measure battery condition etc.) and still apparently get the same consistent 25 miles range out of the car that I got when new.

Like HHL I'm not bothered now and doubt that I will be in 4 years time, as even if the battery does degrade noticeably, I will still be getting no Congestion Charge, cheap parking, no road tax plus all the money I've saved on petrol to date. :mrgreen:

I don't think so ...

Assuming there will be a lawsuit, driven by PHEV user in Australia, this it will be in an Australian court.

Not even sure a class action is possible in Australia, I don't know any EU country that has class action, to me it was always a option avilable only in the US law system.

Anyhow ... a court in Australia will only care of Australian PHEV customers, and the warranty that Mitsubishi did declare and advertise there.
What Mitsubishi did outside Australia for the court it should not really much relevant.

 

[elm70]

...

The way I read the original statement when the car was first announced here does not PROMISE ANYTHING. It simply said that Mitsubishi EXPECT that the battery retains 80% capacity for the life of the vehicle and that the battery is not a normal service item and not scheduled to be replaced. It also went to some length explaining that there will be degradation due to usage and AGEING. This is very different to giving a warranty that certain conditions will be met. As for the design life of the vehicle, I think most manufacturers work on 8-10 years and around 250,000km.
So, I am not sure a "class action", whatever that will mean, has any chance of doing more than providing a bit of sustenance for some deserving lawyers :lol:

Considering that Mitsubishi replace the battery when this is below 70% ... I guess they do this knowing very well their legal obbligation.

Anyhow ... I believe there is a gray area .. especially if they did advertise 80% SOH in Australia

As said .. I don't know the Australian system ... in my experince when I had to fight a "corporation" ... I got the support of "konsumentenschutz" .. which is for free and very professional

PS: In my case I did win :ugeek:

PPS: In my case the current policy to replace the battery when this is below 70% .. inside 8y or 160.000km is relative fair ... at first it was looking like that the warranty would kick in only in case of mayor failure in the battery pack ... so ... what they do is already a bit more then what we did expect/predict some time ago.

 

[greendwarf]

[Not even sure a class action is possible in Australia, I don't know any EU country that has class action, to me it was always a option avilable only in the US law system.

Anyhow ... a court in Australia will only care of Australian PHEV customers, and the warranty that Mitsubishi did declare and advertise there.
What Mitsubishi did outside Australia for the court it should not really much relevant.

Ah, but US law (and Australian) is based on UK law, not European Code Napoleon - so yes, Class Action is possible in Australia (as currently in UK against VW) and findings in Australia will be applicable in any UK law based jurisdiction, assuming based on same criteria.

 

[robdickinson]

I wonder how this will go in NZ, half our (and mine in particular) are japan imports with effectively no manufacturers warranty.

Mine is 56,000kms and 89% so far.

 

[jaapv]

I wouldn't be too worried. The Netherlands has the largest population of PHEVs in the world, for a large part 2013/2014 models with relatively high mileage. I just looked in the Dutch forum, and battery degradation does not appear to be a hot topic at all. Maybe Anko can shed some light, being a "sufferer" himself (and Dutch )

 

[elm70]

I wouldn't be too worried. The Netherlands has the largest population of PHEVs in the world, for a large part 2013/2014 models with relatively high mileage. I just looked in the Dutch forum, and battery degradation does not appear to be a hot topic at all. Maybe Anko can shed some light, being a "sufferer" himself (and Dutch )

It sounds most of the PHEV from NL, with high mileage ... use the PHEV more as an hybrid car then not as an EV car.

Battery degradation is a concern for every EV, and every PHEV ... owner of Hybrid car don't have much reason to care of the high voltage battery in the car

Still .. being a concern does not means it is a problem ... but in the case of the Outlander PHEV it is looking it is often a problem too.

The problem is also tight the the car usage ..

For people doing 100km a trip ... having 40 or 30 km in EV does not really make much difference
For people doing 20km trip ... the battery degradation must to be massive for cause any difference ... battery degradation is visible .. but is not a pain
For people having to do 35/40km trips ... then this is where battery degradation can be a problem ... being able to run in full EV, vs having the PHEV that need to fire up the ICE for complete the trip is an issue ... not only it has a visible impact in the fuel economy ... but as well it is not healthy for the ICE to run only for few seconds every day ...

 

[anko]

I wouldn't be too worried. The Netherlands has the largest population of PHEVs in the world, for a large part 2013/2014 models with relatively high mileage. I just looked in the Dutch forum, and battery degradation does not appear to be a hot topic at all. Maybe Anko can shed some light, being a "sufferer" himself (and Dutch )

:lol:

The topic "PHEV computer diagnosis report (battery current)" has 477 responses.

 

[jaapv]

I didn't see it on the first page . I rarely go there if at all.
Anyway, less than 5% of owners... :lol:

How many batteries were replaced on guaranty?

 

[anko]

Two that I know of. Hopefully a third will follow soon.

But it is 477 responses over 5300 users of the forum, not 20.000 owners.

 

[jaapv]

Thanks. No fight over statistics, but 477 responses is nor 477 owners.

 

[anko]

Looks like you had your mind already made up about 'it not being an issue in the Netherlands'.

There are 2637 different topics on the Dutch forum and roughly one out of every 100 post (over more than 5 years) is in one single topic on battery degradation. I call that a hot topic.

 

[STS134]

I don't think that a cell phone battery is quite the same technology as a car battery.

It's exactly the same technology: lithium ion batteries. Battery life is determined by several factors:
1. Charge voltage (lower is better)
2. Charge/discharge current draw (lower is better)
3. Temperature (around 25C is good, above 35C is bad)
4. Depth of Discharge (lower is better)

Tesla controls all 4 factors to try to make the batteries last:

For (1), they have something in their UI that allows the driver to set the max charge level at 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, or 100%. The idea is to only use 100% when you are doing a long road trip.
For (2), their batteries are large. Current draw relative to battery capacity is therefore low under normal conditions. You don't launch a Tesla in ludicrous mode too often.
For (3), they have very good temperature regulation. They'll even start up the cooling system even when the car is parked and not plugged in, unless the charge level falls below a certain threshold.
For (4), well, their batteries are large, so not much of it is used in daily driving.

Don't expect your PHEV to be a pure EV, otherwise the batteries are going to degrade like the batteries in a Leaf.
Contrast this with a typical PHEV:
1. Lacks charge limit control
2. Small battery = high current (and Mitsubishi's stupid default settings of not turning on the ICE on the freeway makes it worse)
3. Lacks a big enough battery to run cooling system when not plugged in
4. Small batteries get a large % of their capacity used in daily driving because they're small

 

[elm70]

1. Charge voltage (lower is better)

:?: :?: :?: :?:

Charging process is standard .. at least sort of

Mainly it is a constant current followed by a constant voltage charging process.

But, what is more relevant is that in order to fully charge a Lithium battery it is needed end the charging process at the max voltage allowed for the pack .. that in our case is 4.10 volt

In any moment , for what I have seen, never our PHEV (like any EV) will try to push a voltage above 4.1v per cell in the pack

So .. point #1 does not look to be applicable

 

[elm70]

Looks like you had your mind already made up about 'it not being an issue in the Netherlands'.

There are 2637 different topics on the Dutch forum and roughly one out of every 100 post (over more than 5 years) is in one single topic on battery degradation. I call that a hot topic.

I believe everybody is concern about the battery of his BEV and PHEV ... so ... there are tons of discussion on the net about it
Since BEV and PHEV are relative new ... before 2012 there was almost no EV or PHEV in the market ... we still don't have any long life history and statistic .. so there are lot of journalists with different level of skill trying to collect data and making good and bad articles about it

People from the "street" still assume EV cars have the same problem with battery life like mobile phones and laptop .. the idea is that after 3 years battery is almost wasted

The reality we know, is different ... even if for some BEV and PHEV the battery life is not looking as good as on some other BEV and other PHEV ...