Battery Degradation Issues: I bet you wil suffer from them

[jaapv]

+1. You are so right. I have a lot of experience with the disconnect between Internet storms and reality. This seems to be one of them.

 

[jaapv]

I don't think that a cell phone battery is quite the same technology as a car battery.

It's exactly the same technology: lithium ion batteries.

Sorry, that is nonsense. All Li-Ion batteries are the same basic chemistry, that much is true. However, the technology, like the materials used and other technical parameters, varies widely and is of decisive influence on the lifetime of the battery. I have camera batteries from 2007 that are still functional at about 60% despite daily use. But they have cost over 100 Euro (small 900 Ah ones)

 

[elm70]

Sorry, that is nonsense. All Li-Ion batteries are the same basic chemistry, that much is true. However, the technology, like the materials used and other technical parameters, varies widely and is of decisive influence on the lifetime of the battery. I have camera batteries from 2007 that are still functional at about 60% despite daily use. But they have cost over 100 Euro (small 900 Ah ones)

How do you know they all use Li-Ion ... there is also Li-Polymer too .. which has superior "performance" but at higher cost

Anyow ... There are multiple Li-Ion chemistry
There are even more Li-Po chemistry

Plus, charging and discharging process is different case by case. And thermal management too

I believe we don't really have any reference and any history

As well, the models used for calculate the life of a battery, are just models .. which may have big or small modelling error inside.

We can't really predict what will be the status of our PHEV battery after 10y of life (nor Mitsubishi could have predict SOH after 8y and 160.000km) .. only in 2023 we will know how behave a 10y old battery in an Outlander PHEV ..
For Lithium battery there is no re-fresh procedure .. the capacity lost is a permanent condition ... different than Lead-Acid and Ni-Mh and Ni-Cd , for which exist procedures for refresh these batteries . in the Lithium battery world there is no re-fresh procedure

 

[STS134]

1. Charge voltage (lower is better)

:?: :?: :?: :?:

Charging process is standard .. at least sort of

Mainly it is a constant current followed by a constant voltage charging process.

But, what is more relevant is that in order to fully charge a Lithium battery it is needed end the charging process at the max voltage allowed for the pack .. that in our case is 4.10 volt

In any moment , for what I have seen, never our PHEV (like any EV) will try to push a voltage above 4.1v per cell in the pack

So .. point #1 does not look to be applicable

It is highly applicable. You are correct that there is a constant current phase, and then a constant voltage phase once the voltage hits a certain threshold. But there is nothing special about 4.10V/cell. You can also pick a maximum voltage of 4.20 or 4.05 or 4.00 and do the constant voltage charge at that level. If you pick 4.00V/cell, you will get more cycles out of your battery than you will at 4.10V/cell. For satellites, NASA apparently uses around 3.92V/cell.

 

[ChrisMiller]

There are obviously posters here with far more knowledge of lithium battery electrochemistry than I do (that's not such a big challenge, TBH). But I expect Mitsubishi have a few experts on board, too - and they seem to have bet the company that there won't be too many batteries being replaced under warranty. If you're confident they've got it wrong, you should really be shorting MMC shares (and Nissan, and Renault).

 

[jaapv]

Sorry, that is nonsense. All Li-Ion batteries are the same basic chemistry, that much is true. However, the technology, like the materials used and other technical parameters, varies widely and is of decisive influence on the lifetime of the battery. I have camera batteries from 2007 that are still functional at about 60% despite daily use. But they have cost over 100 Euro (small 900 Ah ones)

How do you know they all use Li-Ion ... there is also Li-Polymer too .. which has superior "performance" but at higher cost

Anyow ... There are multiple Li-Ion chemistry
There are even more Li-Po chemistry

Plus, charging and discharging process is different case by case. And thermal management too

I believe we don't really have any reference and any history

As well, the models used for calculate the life of a battery, are just models .. which may have big or small modelling error inside.

We can't really predict what will be the status of our PHEV battery after 10y of life (nor Mitsubishi could have predict SOH after 8y and 160.000km) .. only in 2023 we will know how behave a 10y old battery in an Outlander PHEV ..
For Lithium battery there is no re-fresh procedure .. the capacity lost is a permanent condition ... different than Lead-Acid and Ni-Mh and Ni-Cd , for which exist procedures for refresh these batteries . in the Lithium battery world there is no re-fresh procedure

Exactly the point I was making.