Bad UI

[anko]

Which implies that Mitsubishi has a good reason not to "fix" it.

Mitsubishi not wanting to fix something DOES NOT imply it is not broken. More likely they hope we trade for the newer model. But why do I even bother? You know this.

BTW: the poor job they did on the EV button on the newer model would be an absolute deal braker to me.

Anyway I either use preheat or the car is in a heated garage -most of the time-, so to me it is a complete non-issue.

So you are suggesting I must preheat the car in order to move it to a different parking bay? Good for you your pattern of usage is different. But that does not make the design right for others / in general.

 

[anko]

But to me being a Beechcraft Duke pilot (used in my business sometimes) pushing a couple of buttons on the PHEV when I start it or before I stop it is the least of my concerns. My checklist on the the Duke is 2 pages long just to take off. :roll:

Now for people forgetting to turn off say the heater before you stop the PHEV a little note stuck to the dash as a checklist reminder could help wonders IMHO. Then you can be just like a pilot.

Being a pilot you must know that following checklists is not something that comes naturally. During your training they have hammered that in.

And why is it acceptable that the PHEV requires a checklist?

 

[maby]

But to me being a Beechcraft Duke pilot (used in my business sometimes) pushing a couple of buttons on the PHEV when I start it or before I stop it is the least of my concerns. My checklist on the the Duke is 2 pages long just to take off. :roll:

Now for people forgetting to turn off say the heater before you stop the PHEV a little note stuck to the dash as a checklist reminder could help wonders IMHO. Then you can be just like a pilot.

Being a pilot you must know that following checklists is not something that comes naturally. During your training they have hammered that in.

And why is it acceptable that the PHEV requires a checklist?

Well, I don't think that any of us would suggest that the current design is perfect - the difference between us is that some consider the current design to be more imperfect than others. I would like sticky modes and the ability to select the mode before booting the car up - but the number of times that I have started the car in order to move it a few yards is so few that I don't consider it to be a serious design fault. Clearly you do - we'll have to agree to disagree...

 

[nils944]

Mort, I like to avoid ICE starts so for the most part I just leave the climate control off.

I generally pre-heat the car so that is warm and defrosted before the trip starts. (Using the timer or PHEV app or see separate posts on the keyfob hack or using sms and Tasker to remotely start the heater.)

If it's warmer than about 5 C outside and you have pre-heated the car then you should be able use the defrost (at 18 C anyway) without the ICE starting.

 

[STS134]

...

What's so hard about either pushing OFF on the climate control, or pushing the EV button?

....

The criticism is that, on a cold morning, the car typically does not give you time to hit any buttons before it starts the engine.

I've never seen this behavior before. ICE always takes at least a few seconds to start. If I immediately hit the EV button after starting, the ICE won't come on, even when it's fairly cold. I haven't ever driven in severe, bitter cold (below -15°C) but even if the ICE were to start immediately, you always have a chance to disable the climate controls before starting the vehicle, even if they were left on before the vehicle was last switched off, by pressing the start button twice WITHOUT pressing the brake, switching off the climate controls, and then starting the car. Am I missing something?

 

[jaapv]

Which implies that Mitsubishi has a good reason not to "fix" it.

Mitsubishi not wanting to fix something DOES NOT imply it is not broken. More likely they hope we trade for the newer model. But why do I even bother? You know this.

BTW: the poor job they did on the EV button on the newer model would be an absolute deal braker to me.

Anyway I either use preheat or the car is in a heated garage -most of the time-, so to me it is a complete non-issue.

So you are suggesting I must preheat the car in order to move it to a different parking bay? Good for you your pattern of usage is different. But that does not make the design right for others / in general.

Well actually my daily commute is a bit further than from parking bay to parking bay.

 

[STS134]

Which implies that Mitsubishi has a good reason not to "fix" it.

Mitsubishi not wanting to fix something DOES NOT imply it is not broken. More likely they hope we trade for the newer model. But why do I even bother? You know this.

BTW: the poor job they did on the EV button on the newer model would be an absolute deal braker to me.

Huh? What's wrong with the EV button on the newer model? I mean, other than the fact that it is split from the Charge/Save buttons by the 4WD Lock button, which is nowhere near the Eco Mode button either. That's rather strange, because the 3 power mode buttons are not together, and the 2 drive mode buttons are also not together. But as far as how it works? I don't have a problem with it.

So you are suggesting I must preheat the car in order to move it to a different parking bay? Good for you your pattern of usage is different. But that does not make the design right for others / in general.

Why can't you just turn climate control off before starting the car? It's not like you're going to freeze and die while moving the car 10 meters to a different parking bay if you don't have heat (presumably, you had to walk to the car to begin with, and it's just as cold outside the car as it is inside).

 

[Trex]

Being a pilot you must know that following checklists is not something that comes naturally. During your training they have hammered that in.

:lol: :lol:

Ok that statement to me, to put as nicely as I can, totally wrong. Not partly wrong but totally wrong IMHO. :roll: :lol:

To learn to use checklists is totally natural because there is so much to remember especially at the start of your training. It is NOT hammered in IMO. It just makes sense to use checklists so you will not make "memory" mistakes and all good professional pilots will use them.

Now I said before:

But to me being a Beechcraft Duke pilot (used in my business sometimes) pushing a couple of buttons on the PHEV when I start it or before I stop it is the least of my concerns. My checklist on the the Duke is 2 pages long just to take off. :roll:

Now that checklist 2 pages long I mentioned above I have used that many times I know it off by heart BUT I will still use the written checklist to be totally safe.

But I also use mnemonics like for example FUMP before landing which stands for Fuel Undercarriage Mixture Pitch just to backup those checklists which are especially useful in emergencies in case you have to rush the checklists and you have no co-pilot to help you.

I also said before:

..............I consider that steering a plane around the sky would be possible by just about anyone.....................Plus not killing yourself and others sometimes. :lol:

Now steering a plane around the sky I do think to be fairly easy but, and I do consider this to be a big BUT, flying in it self is very unforgiving of making mistakes. For example there are dead pilots and passengers just from running out of fuel or flying into bad weather is a big killer. Knowing when to turn around and go back to your departure airport or go to an alternate airport or even knowing when to go around from a bad approach on finals to the destination runway are to me as the pilot in command the hardest decisions I have to make. I also always remember certain sayings like: aviate navigate comunicate and there are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no old bold pilots.

And why is it acceptable that the PHEV requires a checklist?

Now IMO the PHEV does not require a checklist. I was just trying to help you remember as , from memory, you have forgotten to turn off the heater or turn down the temp to stop the ICE from starting.

Hell I hardly get to drive the PHEV but I can remember as soon as I get Ready on the display to push the noisemaker and lane departure warning switches to turn them off. But I would not like to make them "remember" (or sticky) the state I prefer them in as others drive the PHEV besides me and pushing a couple buttons to me is no biggie. But that is just my opinion.

Ps From memory the lane departure warning switch can be made to turn off all the time by holding it on for a certain time but I will not do it for others that may like to use it that drive my PHEV and not know I have turned it off completely.

 

[anko]

The default setting should be the one that optimizes for the common case

Your 'common case' is clearly not mine.

and when driving around in very cold weather,

The criterium for being able to drive off without ICE start is no more than about 7 deg difference between actual and requested temperature. Plus 10 deg C or even more ambient temperature is low enough for not meeting this criterium. I would not consider this 'very cold wether'.

and enjoy the free heat.

As I explained in many cases, it is not for free. And in many cases, there is no heat at all. You seem to ignore this.

, then override it by either switching off the heat, or turning on EV mode? I would actually prefer if the car defaulted to the last setting you used before shutting it down, but whatever. It's not that big of a deal.

So, you would be perfectly happy with a default setting of Climate Off? Great!

BTW: A setting that allows you to choose between "Climate off on next start", "Climate Off on next start" and "Climate as it were on next start" would suit everybody. And would still not be difficult to implement.

Huh? ICE cars always start the ICE, even when moving between parking spaces only 10 meters apart. So I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

You keep iterating it is not a BEV. Well, it is not an ICE either. If wanted an ICE, I would have bought myself an ICE.

If your car is an older model that does not have an EV mode button (I was unaware that this was the case before reading this thread), then sell it and buy a new one that does have that mode. You're complaining that they haven't fixed the problem in the newer models, but they have. If you hit the EV mode button, the ICE will not start.

Why do I need to buy a new car to get one design flaw fixed, that can also be fixed by a SW update? BTW: From what I have read, the new EV button reduces the issue a little bit, but does not take it away. To me, that would be an absolute dealbreaker.

 

[anko]

... but the number of times that I have started the car in order to move it a few yards is so few that I don't consider it to be a serious design fault. Clearly you do - we'll have to agree to disagree...

I can appreciate that there is no issue with the car whatsoever the way you use it. I think you must be able to see it is different for me. And with all due respect, I think I use the car way more 'as intended' than you do.

 

[anko]

Well actually my daily commute is a bit further than from parking bay to parking bay.

Your daily commute is not everybody's daily commute.

 

[anko]

Why can't you just turn climate control off before starting the car? It's not like you're going to freeze and die while moving the car 10 meters to a different parking bay if you don't have heat (presumably, you had to walk to the car to begin with, and it's just as cold outside the car as it is inside).

Of course I can. But every time I forget, it is another meaningless cold start with associated wear and tear and bad exhaust fumes. And typically I have other things on my mind that turning off the heat when I rush out between two meetings to move my car.

You may easily forget to turn it off on a (very) short trip. But you will not likely forget to turn it on on a long trip :mrgreen:

Also, when my next trip is 20 km to a location where I can get a free charge, I would prefer to use the electric heater for heating and not the ICE. Because form a cost perspective, that is much more efficient. But the car won't allow me to do so.

 

[jaapv]

Well actually my daily commute is a bit further than from parking bay to parking bay.

Your daily commute is not everybody's daily commute.

Exactly - and it appears to me that Mitsubishi caters for the most common use.

 

[Sumpy]

I have run out of popcorn and will now interject with my opinion on this thread (and a few others). I think that the Outlander PHEV is a great car that is radically different to any other car that I have owned or driven, and yes it does have its faults, although in my humble opinion they are small and not a real problem for me. I think we all have to bear in mind that the PHEV is a relatively new system and however good the designers are they will never get it right first time, or be able to satisfy all of its customers (and no Elmo, I don't work for Mitsubishi). There is no such thing as the perfect car and some are less suited to certain uses than others. This car is not a full electric car and shouldn't be compared with one. It is just a stop gap until range and charging times improve (this is the humble opinion of one sad old git and in no way represents the views of the Mitsubishi Corporation or any of its world wide associates and partners).
Debate is a good thing, but we all need to remember to respect other peoples view point. Not only do we have forum members with vastly differing driving patterns to each other but from all corners of the world, varying conditions from the hot sandy deserts of Sweden to the icy tundra's of Australia...…."What was that nurse, time for my meds?".
For an example of how people have different opinions of the Outlander, the car I had before my PHEV had a CD and a tape player with no satnav, so to me the MMCS is brilliant, but I can fully appreciate that others have had far better car audio systems and want to upgrade it, it all comes down to perspective. I will sign off now as my meds are kicking in and will leave on the note of enjoy the PHEV, enjoy this forum, but above all else enjoy life .

 

[STS134]

As I explained in many cases, it is not for free. And in many cases, there is no heat at all. You seem to ignore this.

Sometimes, I get no heat when I start the car for maybe about 1-2 minutes. But that's not relevant when moving from one parking bay to another.

So, you would be perfectly happy with a default setting of Climate Off? Great!.

What I mean is, whether it was in Charge, Save, or EV mode when you switched it off, it will retain that setting when you switch it back on. So if it was in EV mode, it will remain in that mode.

BTW: From what I have read, the new EV button reduces the issue a little bit, but does not take it away. To me, that would be an absolute dealbreaker.

I have never had the ICE start due to climate control use in EV mode. It will still start if you floor it, and that's much more annoying.

Of course I can. But every time I forget, it is another meaningless cold start with associated wear and tear and bad exhaust fumes. And typically I have other things on my mind that turning off the heat when I rush out between two meetings to move my car.

If you are forgetting each and every time, then it literally must not be that important. I once drove my previous car about 2 blocks on a flat tire, and ruined a tire that could have been patched, and had to buy 4 new matching tires. Guess what's on my checklist before starting the vehicle now?

 

[mort]

Sell it and move on.

You told me something similar back at the time I did got my PHEV

I can tell you .. this type of reply just don't help

Sell and move on ... it is something not possible ... and it is super annoying to get this feedback

To me it is as annoying to (have to) read this kind of bashing stuff over and over again, from people who had a chance to find out up front:

I am not attempting to "Bash" hopefully someone at Mitsubishi picks this up as feedback. The most valuable improvements to a manufacturers vehicles come from owners.

It is totally useless for you to tell someone to just sell it and move on. Plus there is no model Y yet.

Also it should be noted that people who are active on the forum might believe that issues on the forum, even regularly discussed ones are common knowledge. As I noted in the OP, I could not find info on this problem using the search engine. I waited for this vehicle for 5 years, studying every thing I could about it on this forum on European forums, on the Mitsubishi website and I read every review I could find. No where was this mentioned.
With the volt, users have been accustomed to using all available battery power before the engine turns on, that is the very beauty of a PHEV, only use gas when it is absolutely necessary. It is never necessary on a 15 mile commute, Period.
Stop making excuses for poor design. Our Volt has 80000 miles with no battery degradation and is driven like this every day. Believe me if Chevrolet can get it right than Mitsubishi has no excuse.

 

[STS134]

With the volt, users have been accustomed to using all available battery power before the engine turns on, that is the very beauty of a PHEV, only use gas when it is absolutely necessary. It is never necessary on a 15 mile commute, Period.
Stop making excuses for poor design. Our Volt has 80000 miles with no battery degradation and is driven like this every day. Believe me if Chevrolet can get it right than Mitsubishi has no excuse.

The Volt is a completely different beast than the Outlander. It has a Cd of just 0.28, a much smaller cross sectional area, and a battery with a capacity about 50% higher. All of which means, it can cruise on the freeway without overstressing the batteries. The Outlander's Cd is 0.33, it's a much bigger car, and it has a much smaller battery. In order to experience the same amount of battery stress at the same speeds as the Volt, the Outlander would probably need a battery that's about 30 kWh (which I believe would be a record high for a PHEV battery). Mitsubishi could certainly do it, but I don't think you'd like the impact on cargo space it would cause. Look at the cost of all of that battery capacity in the Volt. It can only hold 4 passengers, and look at how much stuff you can put in the back of that car. Everything is a tradeoff, and most people who are buying an Outlander aren't getting it if it severely lacks cargo space.

 

[greendwarf]

Our Volt has 80000 miles with no battery degradation and is driven like this every day. Believe me if Chevrolet can get it right than Mitsubishi has no excuse.

If I understand the technical discussions on lithium batteries - this is impossible (unless it hasn't been used as an EV), as they a limited to a finite number of cycles. So presumably you mean that the Chevie's BMU "hides" the degradation better than the Mitsu's - aided by the factors identified by STS134?

 

[wws]

With the volt, users have been accustomed to using all available battery power before the engine turns on, that is the very beauty of a PHEV, only use gas when it is absolutely necessary. It is never necessary on a 15 mile commute, Period.
Stop making excuses for poor design. Our Volt has 80000 miles with no battery degradation and is driven like this every day. Believe me if Chevrolet can get it right than Mitsubishi has no excuse.

The Volt is a completely different beast than the Outlander. It has a Cd of just 0.28, a much smaller cross sectional area, and a battery with a capacity about 50% higher. All of which means, it can cruise on the freeway without overstressing the batteries. The Outlander's Cd is 0.33, it's a much bigger car, and it has a much smaller battery. In order to experience the same amount of battery stress at the same speeds as the Volt, the Outlander would probably need a battery that's about 30 kWh (which I believe would be a record high for a PHEV battery). Mitsubishi could certainly do it, but I don't think you'd like the impact on cargo space it would cause. Look at the cost of all of that battery capacity in the Volt. It can only hold 4 passengers, and look at how much stuff you can put in the back of that car. Everything is a tradeoff, and most people who are buying an Outlander aren't getting it if it severely lacks cargo space.

The current BMW i3 REx has larger than 30 kWh battery pack. It'd be nice if the Outlander was comparable. Based on my experience with our Volt, if the Outlander had about 2x its current EV-only range, it would be about perfect. (STS134: I also live in Saratoga. The Volt is a little short of being able to make my wifes round-trip commute to San Mateo and back on 85/101 purely on EV. Fortunately she can charge at work. It is 30 miles each way, so I don't think the Outlander could even do one way all EV.)

 

[STS134]

The current BMW i3 REx has larger than 30 kWh battery pack. It'd be nice if the Outlander was comparable. Based on my experience with our Volt, if the Outlander had about 2x its current EV-only range, it would be about perfect. (STS134: I also live in Saratoga. The Volt is a little short of being able to make my wifes round-trip commute to San Mateo and back on 85/101 purely on EV. Fortunately she can charge at work. It is 30 miles each way, so I don't think the Outlander could even do one way all EV.)

i3 REx has a severely undersized ICE though, in addition to limited cargo space. It literally cannot maintain a safe speed going up a mountain on ICE power alone; a PHEV can. https://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-bevx-restrictions-plea-carb-unleash-rex/ I'd rather not have a BEVx, the restrictions are way too severe.