What CAN I tow with PHEV

[KJ78]

So, as in UK, the towing limit is declared by the manufacturer based on the laid down test and will vary model by model. I think suggestions that it is driven by fear of lawsuits are rubbish.

In North America the only standardized test for determining maximum towing capacity is the SAE J2807 test, however this test is entirely optional for manufacturers and is really only applicable to pickup trucks.

When it comes to regular passenger cars and crossovers the manufacturer will just pull a number out of their behind and call that the maximum towing capacity, usually that number is zero, sometimes it's something arbitrary like 1000, 1500, or 2000lbs.

There is never a mechanical reason for limiting the vehicle when the exact same one across the Atlantic will be rated for at least twice the towing weight. It is a warranty and cultural limitation, manufacturers don't want to have people coming in for warranty repairs because they don't know how to drive with a trailer, and it's constantly told to you you're supposed to buy a pickup truck if you want to tow and using anything else is irresponsible.

 

[greendwarf]

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_202002/preview/

And where in this doc does it say that it is only applicable to pick-ups - not in the introduction (NB. I'm not going to pay $85 to read the full version)

As it says it is a standard for use by manufacturers to enable comparison between vehicles not lay down some legal limit - unlike in the UK where it is laid down by law. If all the others are using the standard then Mitsu is not going to break ranks and start a "tow war".

However, if the test does involve towing up a slope from a standing start (as claimed above) then the PHEV will be at a disadvantage, like all EV drive trains - I wonder how the Rivian fares? If Mitsu were to ignore the standard and use a higher non-slope figure, the competition would jump on this "cheating" from a great height.

If North American users don't understand the meaning or purpose of the test, then that's their fault - unless, of course, insurance companies won't cover you if you exceed the standard?

 

[KJ78]

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j2807_202002/preview/

And where in this doc does it say that it is only applicable to pick-ups - not in the introduction (NB. I'm not going to pay $85 to read the full version)

I did not mean in the literal sense it only applies to pickup trucks, but in the practical sense. http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/towing/1502-sae-j2807-tow-tests-the-standard outlined in this article Just about all of the vehicle variables and adjustments allowed as per the testing procedure are only really applicable to pickup trucks and not smaller vehicles, you aren't specifying different final drive ratios or tire sizes or ordering dual rear wheels on something like a Kia Sorrento or an Outlander. The constant use of the words "truck" and "truck/trailer combination" throughout implies who this test procedure is really aimed at.


I have not been able to find any information regarding how smaller vehicles are tested and what sort of baselines they're required to meet, and just like yourself I have better things I'd rather spend 85USD on than some publication from the SAE. Is a Ford Ecosport supposed to meet the same 30 second 0-60 acceleration time as a massive Ford F250 diesel or is it different? Every article online only talks about how the pickup trucks are tested.

I wonder how the Rivian fares

They were seen testing with 11,000lbs on that stretch of route 68 a while back, apparently they were pulling a sustained 1200-1500A of current from the battery packs under acceleration with that load.

If Mitsu were to ignore the standard and use a higher non-slope figure, the competition would jump on this "cheating" from a great height

Not in North America they wouldn't because the vast majority of people buying crossovers (The Outlander is a crossover here) really don't care about the towing capacity here due to the culture surrounding towing, If you want to tow, you buy a truck or a large SUV like a Suburban or an Expedition, not a small crossover. If you want to find the towing capacity on a crossover it's usually buried in the depths of the vehicle specifications and isn't presented out front like it is on the trucks & suvs.

If North American users don't understand the meaning or purpose of the test, then that's their fault - unless, of course, insurance companies won't cover you if you exceed the standard

North American drivers have trouble understanding how to drive at the best of times, adding a trailer to that only makes the situation worse. The number of pickup trucks I've had blow past me doing 120+km/h while towing a 20-30ft camper trailer is mind boggling, the only saving grace is those vehicles are generally overbuilt for their ratings so it can compensate for the drivers incompetence to a degree. Manufacturers prefer to protect their behinds from liability and avoid warranty claims by specifying overbuilt vehicles for a given tow weight.

The laws will vary by every province and state, but at least in British Columbia it's not actually illegal to exceed the towing capacity, and going off the linked video it's the same in Ontario. Exceeding the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating or the Gross Axle Weight Rating is illegal, and odds are if you're over the tow limit, the additional tongue weight will put you over an axle weight limit, but if you can distribute the weight properly something like this is still technically legal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-olOdQVik

 

[littlescrote]

with a full depleted battery

There's a confusing statement if ever I saw one!

I assume you mean "fully depleted"?

 

[user 3575]

with a full depleted battery

There's a confusing statement if ever I saw one!

I assume you mean "fully depleted"?

It took me a while to work that one out If I wasn't stupid I would be dangerous

 

[Carmageddon]

Guys and what happens if we tow like 5,000 lb and North of it?
I am interested in towing a large boat to a lake 40 minutes away without damaging the drive train or shear off the hitch.
I am concerned whether the hitch can withstand the load during pulling a boat out of the water, and drivetrain damage during the trip itself - although I assume drivetrain warranty would cover that as Mitsubishi would never be able to prove I towed exceeding the max limit.

I did tow with my current 2019 Hyundai Kona 2L gas which has no towing rating, using small class 1 receiver - towing a 2500+ pounds camper but just barely in manual mode and 4th gear, so I am hoping that the Outlander PHEV can manage 5-6 k pounds?

 

[SilverD]

I am not sure of the safety factor in the design of the tow bar and the tow bar connection to the chassis, but the size and quantity of bolts plus thickness/strength of chassis might be some of the reasoning to have put the existing maximum load rating on the PHEV. The drive train may or may not cope with that load. I am not enough of an engineer to work out how much force double the maximum load there may be in circumstances of shock to the system such as pot holes, crossing kerbs. Plus the effect of any extra weight of water when retreiving boat from lake.
If you have a PHEV and that size boat, hire a truck/utility for the day and save your PHEV and possibly your boat.

 

[jaapv]

Way back in 2014 there was a post in this forum (too lazy to find it) that reported towing a 4000 kg trailer.

 

[greendwarf]

And there were also posts reporting slip-way tow fails - if I remember correctly.

 

[Carmageddon]

All I've found so far is another 2014 post referring to the same infamous 2014 post:
https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58394&sid=25e5318e6e4648ddbcca805f5a1b2f0c#p58394

@greendwarf - in the above post, I quote:

like all EV drive trains, the PHEV struggles with initial forward movement from a standing start, especially on slopes. It can't even drive over a brick (or curb) if the tyre is resting against it!

How can this be?! Electric motors have full torque available from 0 speed.. if this is somehow true, it sounds like the Outlander is entirely wrong choice for me..

 

[greendwarf]

Although my schoolboy electro-mechanical knowledge is over 50 years old, I don't think the basic physics has changed. All motors need momentum to keep turning between the energy input bursts - even an ICE - so initial movement is difficult.

With a traditional electric motor the central armature has a large mass to keep it turning as it moves from contact to contact but even that can be prevented relatively easily - ever had an electric drill jam? Sure an electric motor can't stall, but the continual inflow of energy is just turned into heat - as we have already discussed.

As your diligence has discovered, I have made this point before, but in relation to actual experiences of PHEV users. I think it might have been Trex who demonstrated the brick/kerb fail but others reported problems on slopes, including slipways. The solution, is to have momentum when meeting the obstacle - I've seen a Mitsu video of the car climbing a 45 degree ramp with no problem but NOT from a standing start. So the usual way of dealing with this is to back up and take a run at it - unfortunately, you may not always have this option, especially on a slip way.

Yes, if you are likely to want to tow a large boat up a slipway, then the PHEV is probably not for you - you need a vehicle with the motor up front well out of the way of the water. :idea:

 

[jaapv]

Allegedly the car has a wade depth of 40cm.

 

[greendwarf]

16 inches in real money :lol:

 

[Carmageddon]

Although my schoolboy electro-mechanical knowledge is over 50 years old, I don't think the basic physics has changed. All motors need momentum to keep turning between the energy input bursts - even an ICE - so initial movement is difficult.

With a traditional electric motor the central armature has a large mass to keep it turning as it moves from contact to contact but even that can be prevented relatively easily - ever had an electric drill jam? Sure an electric motor can't stall, but the continual inflow of energy is just turned into heat - as we have already discussed.

As your diligence has discovered, I have made this point before, but in relation to actual experiences of PHEV users. I think it might have been Trex who demonstrated the brick/kerb fail but others reported problems on slopes, including slipways. The solution, is to have momentum when meeting the obstacle - I've seen a Mitsu video of the car climbing a 45 degree ramp with no problem but NOT from a standing start. So the usual way of dealing with this is to back up and take a run at it - unfortunately, you may not always have this option, especially on a slip way.

Yes, if you are likely to want to tow a large boat up a slipway, then the PHEV is probably not for you - you need a vehicle with the motor up front well out of the way of the water. :idea:

Interesting, are you saying that the rear motor and battery are not water proof? Or if water gets into the drive unit, warranty doesn't cover this?

There's a new one that came in 20 minutes drive from me one se and one gt - will be test driving those!

 

[greendwarf]

It's not designed as an off-roader (rather a "soft roader") so I wouldn't personally push the water proofing to the limits but I'm quite happy to drive through deep puddles with impunity.

 

[mikepotts64]

I have done a test tow with my 2021 PHEV staying under the 1500Kg limit for a 300KM caravan relocation. I read that battery depletion is the problem with towing a load so I stopped a few times in generation mode to keep the battery level above 50%. Total fuel consumption for the trip was 11l/100km. My motorway speed was not more than 80km/h, slowing to 70km/h on a few steeper inclines. The trip ended traversing across a rain sodden field which the 4WD Lock mode handled without a problem. I ran the PHEV Watchdog app for the whole trip keeping an eye on all the parameters.

Compared to the VW Tiguan 130kW 4x4 diesel I usually tow this van with the fuel consumption is the same at 10-11lt/100kms but the stability is slightly better on the PHEV with the longer wheelbase and Bilstein suspension. https://photos.app.goo.gl/QaqQ1aztPK9NKn9v9

I also tow a small box trailer often and the PHEV doesn't know its on.

 

[jaapv]

There is no need to stop and recharge as long as you do not get the "reduced power" warning.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Very late to this, but you can test the lack of torque from a standing start quite easily. I reversed up to a standard UK kerb outside a shopping arcade and stopped with both rear wheels resting against it. Someone then parked blocking me from driving straight out, so I tried reversing up the kerb. It failed. But by driving forward a couple of inches, I could then reverse up the kerb easily. However much torque you can put through the motors, the car limits it from a standstill so that you can't burn them out in this sort of position.

 

[LowOnCash]

Great thread guys - I would think the best bet for the Outlander PHEV is to fully charge prior to a tow and leave it in "Keep or Hold" mode which offers two advantages:

!) The battery is fully charged for hills or hard pulls.

2) In "Hold or Keep" mode the engine helps to provide current below 40 mph and once your over 40 mph, the trans-axle locks the engine to the wheels in parallel mode and you then have a standard stick drive SUV in high gear pulling the trailer. In this respect there is no losses and the electric drive is just there for the ride and to help out if needed.

Best Regards - Mike

 

[smerlin64]

Here in Canada we cannot get the OEM hitch installed for 2023 PHEV yet, as its not available (in US the same I think?), due to it failing a crash test. I asked Mitsu and they said it would be available starting in June. I am considering getting an after market one instead though, since its quite a bit cheaper. No idea what that will do to the crash safety though.... :?: