Torque build up "off the line"

[Icerunner]

If you want the ICE to be operating when you are driving in traffic, then CHARGE mode is a better option than SAVE mode. This is about timing. ICE does not necessarily come ON straight away with SAVE mode. Depends on battery %SOC and driving needs at the time. The ICE operation cycles in SAVE mode, even in busy traffic, so sometimes the ICE may be OFF, in SAVE mode when you would maybe have preferred it to be operating.

Hurry sickness, playing some role here it seems. :lol:

It seems I'm misunderstood: the intention is not to start the ICE right away. The intention is to let the ICE start swiftly at the push of the gaspedal, without risking the all too known lack of response for a few seconds every now and then. This is achieved by simply putting the car in SAVE mode.

Since the ride to my work is 30 kilometres, and I can only charge at home, I always hit SAVE when entering the highway (somewhere around 80% SOC - CHARGE wouldn't even start the engine). When I'm getting off the highway, I disable SAVE again. All along the highway I have a responsive car, never do I let the ICE run unnecessary, and still when I get home I have used up all the battery power.

 

[jaapv]

The lack of response is the delay caused by the ICE starting. The only remedy is to have the ICE running, i.e. having "charge" activated. Simply having "save" activated will only result in having the ICE running 50% of the time or so. For the other 50 % the car will exhibit the initial hesitation you are trying to avoid.

 

[greendwarf]

The lack of response is the delay caused by the ICE starting. The only remedy is to have the ICE running, i.e. having "charge" activated. Simply having "save" activated will only result in having the ICE running 50% of the time or so. For the other 50 % the car will exhibit the initial hesitation you are trying to avoid.

This reply doesn't seem deal with the previous post. You have described a theoretical scenario whilst he is describing actual experience - i.e. Charge won't work above 80% SoC whilst he finds Save does fire up the ICE when required. It may be because of the relatively high SoC but you can't really deny what he finds. :?

 

[Icerunner]

The lack of response is the delay caused by the ICE starting. The only remedy is to have the ICE running, i.e. having "charge" activated. Simply having "save" activated will only result in having the ICE running 50% of the time or so. For the other 50 % the car will exhibit the initial hesitation you are trying to avoid.

This reply doesn't seem deal with the previous post. You have described a theoretical scenario whilst he is describing actual experience - i.e. Charge won't work above 80% SoC whilst he finds Save does fire up the ICE when required. It may be because of the relatively high SoC but you can't really deny what he finds. :?

Indeed my point. Every now and then the delay before the ICE is started seems to be exceptionally long - this might have to do something with switching from regen to going full throttle/powering the front wheels mechanically. It seems like the PHEV delays a few seconds (literally seconds!) before starting the ICE in those situations - and this behaviour does not occur with SAVE pressed. Not a hypothetical situation, but real life experience. The trigger point for starting the ICE seems to be lowered, as well as possibly other factors like switching between regen and directly powering the front wheels mechanically.

 

[anko]

I am sorry to say, but (from a theoretical perspective) I am with Jaap on this one. Not saying
Icerunner is not right, just want to understand why he would / could be right.

All Save does (as far as we know) is set the baseline for the SOC hysteresis cycles at some other point than the default. All other stuff (starting engine, engaging parallel drive, etc) is all the same. The only difference I can think of, is that pressing Save when entering the motorway will warm up the engine. And perhaps a warm engine is (purposely) started faster than a cold engine.

This could explain why it makes a difference while driving in the motorway, but not during a take off.

 

[Icerunner]

I am sorry to say, but (from a theoretical perspective) I am with Jaap on this one. Not saying
Icerunner is not right, just want to understand why he would / could be right.

All Save does (as far as we know) is set the baseline for the SOC hysteresis cycles at some other point than the default. All other stuff (starting engine, engaging parallel drive, etc) is all the same. The only difference I can think of, is that pressing Save when entering the motorway will warm up the engine. And perhaps a warm engine is (purposely) started faster than a cold engine.

This could explain why it makes a difference while driving in the motorway, but not during a take off.

It is not a problem with warming up the engine - if I switch off SAVE, I'm in immediate 'danger' of getting the slow ICE-startup (not the regular delay, but the extra delay you sometimes get in certain highway conditions).

The delay really feels like it's partly due to the ICE switching from powering the generator to powering the front wheels. This happens in a mechanical way. I can imagine that pressing SAVE alters the way in which the software chooses whether to power the generator or the front wheels, and when to make the switch (at which speed and at which throttle) - pressing SAVE is essentially almost the same as reaching the 30% SOC ('empty' battery)

 

[Icerunner]

... And as extra info - I'm not describing something that I suspect to detect, it is something that happens with overwhelming certainty and predictability, and which I use for almost 2 years /55.000 kilometers now. And I'm quite the accelerator (sorry for all you environmentalists, I'm really in it for the taxadvantages...)

 

[jaapv]

The lack of response is the delay caused by the ICE starting. The only remedy is to have the ICE running, i.e. having "charge" activated. Simply having "save" activated will only result in having the ICE running 50% of the time or so. For the other 50 % the car will exhibit the initial hesitation you are trying to avoid.

This reply doesn't seem deal with the previous post. You have described a theoretical scenario whilst he is describing actual experience - i.e. Charge won't work above 80% SoC whilst he finds Save does fire up the ICE when required. It may be because of the relatively high SoC but you can't really deny what he finds. :?

Well, haven driven the car since 2013 over 60.000 KM I think I can claim some practical experience...This is how it works for me in real life.

 

[Icerunner]

The lack of response is the delay caused by the ICE starting. The only remedy is to have the ICE running, i.e. having "charge" activated. Simply having "save" activated will only result in having the ICE running 50% of the time or so. For the other 50 % the car will exhibit the initial hesitation you are trying to avoid.

This reply doesn't seem deal with the previous post. You have described a theoretical scenario whilst he is describing actual experience - i.e. Charge won't work above 80% SoC whilst he finds Save does fire up the ICE when required. It may be because of the relatively high SoC but you can't really deny what he finds. :?

Well, haven driven the car since 2013 over 60.000 KM I think I can claim some practical experience...This is how it works for me in real life.

Maybe your drivingstyle prevents you from experiencing the type of behaviour I mean? I literally mean delay of about 5 seconds without any real response from the car. To reproduce: Regen on B5, keep speed at about 100km/h, and then press the pedal to the metal. Then try the same with SAVE enabled.

Maybe I'll try to film it tonight when driving home

 

[jaapv]

I'll try it out. Monday morning. But I have never experienced a 5 second delay in all my driving. I must confess though that I do not see much sense in having regen on B5 on a flat motorway.

 

[gwatpe]

I have changed my use of the paddles over the years as well. Most of my drives are with B0, unless using CC, or controlled descent on a steeper grade is needed.

I almost exclusively have SAVE mode enabled on a highway and normally the ICE is operating with Parallel hybrid mode. If I want to pass, any additional power needs for overtaking comes from the battery. I have not noticed any delays in power, even if the PHEV had been in EV mode and the ICE had to be started again.

The only time my PHEV has reduced ICE power is on the first ICE operation of a drive from cold start. Usually see the blue arrow flash up to 5 times from ICE to battery, but no generator output.

I don't usually ask the PHEV too much power soon after powering ON on a drive.

 

[Icerunner]

Update: paid extra notice to the way I drive, to see what's the difference between SAVE an no-save in regard to delay from the engine.

It might be that I'm subconsciously throttling a bit to start the engine, before taking over. When in SAVE, it will keep the engine running (a bit?) longer after letting go of the throttle, while when in no-save it turns of the ICE almost right away. If I then push the throttle again (with the ICE just shutting down) I get an extra long wait before it's restarted.

This explanation of what I'm experiencing fits better regarding what is known about the way SAVE works - if the SOC is below the point that is set by SAVE, I can imagine the software chooses to keep the ICE running the generator when it's started by me throttling - more efficient that way?

 

[anko]

Thanks for that update. Perhaps, during the take over you have used enough power to reach the low water mark set by the Save button anyway?

 

[jaapv]

Well, I tried this morning - but I could not find a way to make the vehicle hesitate for five seconds before going to full power. Something like 1.5 seconds with the ICE not running, more responsive with the ICE pre-running, irrespective of B setting or SAVE or CHARGE. The only delay seems to be the ICE starting and revving up. The clutch disengaging seems to be instantaneous, the generator is of course connected to the engine all the time, so not delay either.

So, sorry, I could not replicate your experience.

 

[Icerunner]

Well, I tried this morning - but I could not find a way to make the vehicle hesitate for five seconds before going to full power. Something like 1.5 seconds with the ICE not running, more responsive with the ICE pre-running, irrespective of B setting or SAVE or CHARGE. The only delay seems to be the ICE starting and revving up. The clutch disengaging seems to be instantaneous, the generator is of course connected to the engine all the time, so not delay either.

So, sorry, I could not replicate your experience.

Thnx for trying anyway I really start to believe it is due to my drivingstyle...
I tried to replicate it, and so to keep it honest I explicitly did not pre-throttle before I pushed the pedal-to-the-metal whn testing with SAVE on and off. Suddenly, I could not replicate it myself either. Only then I noticed how I álways pre-throttle a bit to feel the ICE start up. So really, I think I'm causing the problem myself, and then fix it by pressing SAVE

 

[Neverfuel]

It may depend on the SOC when you try the experiment. If above 60% SOC you will be reliant on the computer to work out the best option. Below that - there is a more direct throttle to rpm correlation when the engine is running.

 

[greendwarf]

I've just come back from my first out of town journey for over 6 months and had accelerate hard in EV a couple of times - admittedly already moving rather than "off-the line" - and can't say I noted any lag at all before the ICE cut in. This mirrors my normal experience of urban driving where I have to be careful and light footed to avoid the ICE starting when moving off quickly from stationary - e.g. hill starts & right turns. :?