Torque build up "off the line"

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We were still looking for a comparison between an old PHEV and a MY16. Thanks to Stefan from Sweden, I can now present some pictures.

The first graph shows me taking off in my MY14. The second shows Stefan taking off in his MY16.

Anko_zpscvd06atg.jpg

Stefan_zpsrsausgjn.jpg


Both graphs has the exact same timescale and scales for Y values.

In addition to earlier graphs I presented here, I added a black trace that shows acceleration in terms of (km/h)/sec. In order to separate it from the other traces, I added 125 to every value. So, for example I constant value of 135 here would result in 0 - 100 km/h time 10 seconds.

Unfortunately, when Stefan started his run, the monitoring tool hadn't fully settled yet, causing the first half of a second of data to be missing. I believe this "settling" also may have caused the little spike at the beginning of the black acceleration trace. That spike matches a little dent in the green trace, which represents speed. When I manually change the timestamp for the third speed reading from 2,62 seconds to 2.52 seconds (so, shift it back just 10/100s of a second), the dent in the green line goes away. And so does there spike in the black line. See third graph:

Stefan%20corrected_zpsamlzalzz.jpg


Anyway, the purpose of the exercise was to compare older PHEVs to MY16 PHEVs. To be honest, I do not see much of a significant difference. If anything, two things stand out:

- The combined power above 55 km/h is a little bit higher (MY16 peeks at 114.75, MY14 peeks at 109.70), visually resulting in a 0.4 second faster 0-100 time (as far as we can tell exactly, with the first half second missing). It could be a MY difference. But it could also be caused by the fact that when I did the run, my car had already switched to hybride mode because of low SOC. Possibly battery output was slightly reduced, because of this.

- Although both the MY14 and the MY16 run were in Normal mode (so not using the Charge button to pre start the engine), we see a small dip in Torque and power build up between 25 and 30 km/h (which I have contributed to the generator not being fully awake yet) for the MY14, which we do not see for the MY16. But the result of this is not apparent.

All together, difficult to tell. Are there really differences? And if so, are they perhaps caused by the crude monitoring tools, by differences in drivers, .... Who will tell. All I can say for now is that based on these graphs I do not see any evidence af a 2 second improvement early in the sprint.
 
Very interesting measurments! Thank you very much anko! :)

I agree that the dip just before the power reaches 60kW (before? including efficiency it could be just when the power was reaching 60kW) could be due to the startup of the ice.

I think (i'm not yet an owner of the Outlander :-( ) the problem regarding start time of the ice could be: driving with constant speed for example at 90km/h (ice is of), then wanting to bypass somebody, pressing the throttle fully. First you get just 60kW from the battery (poor acceleration), full acceleration (120kW) is only available later when the generator was waking up.

Peter
 
ganderpe said:
I think (i'm not yet an owner of the Outlander :-( ) the problem regarding start time of the ice could be: driving with constant speed for example at 90km/h (ice is of), then wanting to bypass somebody, pressing the throttle fully. First you get just 60kW from the battery (poor acceleration), full acceleration (120kW) is only available later when the generator was waking up.
There is a delay. But once the horses drive, they are very alive :p Nevertheless, if this was on a two lane road and not a motorway, I would probably hit Charge a second or two before moving into the lane for oncoming traffic.
 
I can only offer anecdotal evidence but I have recently driven 4 PHEVs - 2 x MY15 and 2 X MY16 [including a 4 day back to back test] - and I can say that that the MY16 models were noticeable more eager off the line!

Interested in anyone else had the same experience? :shock:
 
Might be that there is slightly less sound deadening. A bit lighter, and you will hear more of the engine noises, which will make the car sound like it is going faster with more grunt. ;)
 
I still would like to see a head-to-head 0-60 (AKA 0-100) comparison - both starting with the ICE running.
 
I'm not sure it's the extra sound insulation - the noticeable difference is at low speed take off - say 0-30 in EV mode where the MY16 seems just a little more eager to go. I haven't driven either model aggressively enough to test the 0-100 time [yet] :mrgreen:
 
Tip for take-off: put it in neutral, floor the pedal, and pull back the lever to drive for take-off. If no-one is next to you, you can do this with running motor, which makes it rev to max speed in neutral, enabling really quick take-off (forgot about the revving one time, had the music so loud I didn't hear it - took me a while to realize that THAT was te reason the guy next to me was staring to me :lol:). This works (of course) for reversing as well - great for teaching the kids why daddy told to put on the seat belts :twisted:

As for taking over in traffic: press SAVE. It will make the trippingpoint for starting the ICE lower, with the right swift pedal-push (no flooring, just a swift push to about three quarters) it will recognize the need for power, preventing the awfull sitting-duck experience in the fast lane where you are eagerly waiting for the ICE to kick in to make a swift move away from shame....
 
Icerunner said:
Tip for take-off: put it in neutral, floor the pedal, and pull back the lever to drive for take-off. If no-one is next to you, you can do this with running motor, which makes it rev to max speed in neutral, enabling really quick take-off (forgot about the revving one time, had the music so loud I didn't hear it - took me a while to realize that THAT was te reason the guy next to me was staring to me :lol:). This works (of course) for reversing as well - great for teaching the kids why daddy told to put on the seat belts :twisted:

As for taking over in traffic: press SAVE. It will make the trippingpoint for starting the ICE lower, with the right swift pedal-push (no flooring, just a swift push to about three quarters) it will recognize the need for power, preventing the awfull sitting-duck experience in the fast lane where you are eagerly waiting for the ICE to kick in to make a swift move away from shame....

I might try that tomorrow, but your paying for the transmission if anything breaks! ;)
 
Icerunner said:
Tip for take-off: put it in neutral, floor the pedal, and pull back the lever to drive for take-off. If no-one is next to you, you can do this with running motor, which makes it rev to max speed in neutral, enabling really quick take-off (forgot about the revving one time, had the music so loud I didn't hear it - took me a while to realize that THAT was te reason the guy next to me was staring to me :lol:). This works (of course) for reversing as well - great for teaching the kids why daddy told to put on the seat belts :twisted:

As for taking over in traffic: press SAVE. It will make the tripping point for starting the ICE lower, with the right swift pedal-push (no flooring, just a swift push to about three quarters) it will recognize the need for power, preventing the awfull sitting-duck experience in the fast lane where you are eagerly waiting for the ICE to kick in to make a swift move away from shame....
If you put it on Charge the ICE will be running from zero - even more responsive.
 
BobEngineer said:
Icerunner said:
Tip for take-off: put it in neutral, floor the pedal, and pull back the lever to drive for take-off. If no-one is next to you, you can do this with running motor, which makes it rev to max speed in neutral, enabling really quick take-off (forgot about the revving one time, had the music so loud I didn't hear it - took me a while to realize that THAT was te reason the guy next to me was staring to me :lol:). This works (of course) for reversing as well - great for teaching the kids why daddy told to put on the seat belts :twisted:

As for taking over in traffic: press SAVE. It will make the trippingpoint for starting the ICE lower, with the right swift pedal-push (no flooring, just a swift push to about three quarters) it will recognize the need for power, preventing the awfull sitting-duck experience in the fast lane where you are eagerly waiting for the ICE to kick in to make a swift move away from shame....

I might try that tomorrow, but your paying for the transmission if anything breaks! ;)

There is no transmission :)

More worried about pushing the brakes along with the 'gas'pedal... Puts some serious stress on the electromotors?
 
jaapv said:
If you put it on Charge the ICE will be running from zero - even more responsive.

Didn't anko post a while back that the battery alone can deliver the maximum power & torque of the e-motors for the initial launch, giving the ICE time to spool up?
 
zzcoopej said:
jaapv said:
If you put it on Charge the ICE will be running from zero - even more responsive.

Didn't anko post a while back that the battery alone can deliver the maximum power & torque of the e-motors for the initial launch, giving the ICE time to spool up?
The graphs I presented do show a small dip in power build up in one of the motors at approx. 28 km/h. This is (theoretically speaking) pretty much the minimum speed at which the two e-motors together can consume as much power as the battery can supply, without exceeding max torque. In order to produce more power (go faster without reducing torque), they depend on additional power from the generator.

But the graphs do not show a noticeable delay or reduction in speed build up. So the effect seems to be extremely small. When you press the throttle very quickly at 0 km/h it will not wait with starting the engine until the e-motors consume 60 kW, but it will pre-start the engine rather quickly in anticipation of that 28 km/h mark. IMHO this is why the dip is rather small.

I don't think Save de will do any good. Save mode is just alternating between EV mode and Charge mode. So the effect of operating in Save mode totally depends on timing. If you want the engine to be running at start up select Charge mode.

Fully in line with what Jaap said about take overs.
 
anko said:
zzcoopej said:
jaapv said:
If you put it on Charge the ICE will be running from zero - even more responsive.

Didn't anko post a while back that the battery alone can deliver the maximum power & torque of the e-motors for the initial launch, giving the ICE time to spool up?
The graphs I presented do show a small dip in power build up in one of the motors at approx. 28 km/h. This is (theoretically speaking) pretty much the minimum speed at which the two e-motors together can consume as much power as the battery can supply, without exceeding max torque. In order to produce more power (go faster without reducing torque), they depend on additional power from the generator.

But the graphs do not show a noticeable delay or reduction in speed build up. So the effect seems to be extremely small. When you press the throttle very quickly at 0 km/h it will not wait with starting the engine until the e-motors consume 60 kW, but it will pre-start the engine rather quickly in anticipation of that 28 km/h mark. IMHO this is why the dip is rather small.

I don't think Save de will do any good. Save mode is just alternating between EV mode and Charge mode. So the effect of operating in Save mode totally depends on timing. If you want the engine to be running at start up select Charge mode.

Fully in line with what Jaap said about take overs.

Pressing SAVE while standing still indeed doesn't help. Pressing SAVE however when driving, as soon as you enter busy traffic, will make the ICE respond quicker to pedal push - more specifically, it prevents the awfull 5-second-long delay before the car seems to respond when taking over
 
Icerunner said:
Pressing SAVE while standing still indeed doesn't help. Pressing SAVE however when driving, as soon as you enter busy traffic, will make the ICE respond quicker to pedal push - more specifically, it prevents the awfull 5-second-long delay before the car seems to respond when taking over
Even when the engine is turned off at that particular moment? That's weird ...

Perhaps, the essence is in the difference between "pressing Save" versus "having pressed Save".
 
If you want the ICE to be operating when you are driving in traffic, then CHARGE mode is a better option than SAVE mode. This is about timing. ICE does not necessarily come ON straight away with SAVE mode. Depends on battery %SOC and driving needs at the time. The ICE operation cycles in SAVE mode, even in busy traffic, so sometimes the ICE may be OFF, in SAVE mode when you would maybe have preferred it to be operating.

Hurry sickness, playing some role here it seems. :lol:
 
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