Trex said:
Hi again Tytalus,
Just writing this here in my lunch break on a Friday so do not have very long to reply. I own and manage a smallish business that mainly designs and builds specialised machinery.
Now I just want to say this in as nice a way as I can but I think you, and others, are making too big an assumption about the supposedly 95% SOC the drive battery is charged to. I am actually in communication with MMC Japan to try and get answers to these sort of questions right at the moment.
Will let you and all others know how I go.
Now as for this:
"The more I look into this battery and how Mitsubishi have programmed its use, the more concerned I'm getting."
Other have said this sort of thing before and I am not sure why these people buy the PHEV or even keep it but I have far more faith in Mitsubishi's engineers.
Hell, for a very new product (first mass produced PHEV 4x4 or SUV) there have been IMO only some very minor recalls so far (touch wood).
Probably just gave it bad luck by saying that. :lol: If something bad goes wrong with the PHEV now, everyone can blame me.
Got to go.
Regards Trex.
Ps There was problem with an assembly process from memory of the drive battery early on in 2013 which held up release of the PHEV to the rest of the world after the PHEV was released in Japan.
Hi Trex,
Similarly, not long to write; about to head off to South London and pick up my newish PHEV
Why am I buying a PHEV, and particularly, an Outlander? Here's are my list of requirements/wants/nices to have, and although now a mute point (as I should hopefully be driving back in one by the time you read this) I hope you'll come to the same conclusion as us:
- We've driven Prius's for over 10 years. Others were doubters of battery tech and saying things like: "You'll have to change the battery in 5 years, they cost more to make, they aren't as green as they say, the performance is terrible, you'll regret it." So my wife (also an electronics engineer) looked at what Toyota had done and realised it was the best of all the worlds at that moment in time (2008): Economy of a diesel without the rubbish (how people ever got convinced otherwise, I never will understand), size and price of an equivalent spec/age Ford Focus C-Max, geeky.
- 10 years later and apart from a terrible run in with 2 Toyota sales staff (the service staff were great) the cars have been great, especially the '04 plate we had for 8 years. Twice the economy of the V40 Volvo we used to own.
- We then started looking elsewhere for a newer car, especially as the Prius's don't like town driving in the cold (35mpg max, although on a good 40 mile run we got 70.1 mpg), each time we go anywhere (about 250 miles every couple of months, or camping in the summer) the Prius is packed and we cant take 3 bikes due to the limits put on the hatch.
- We've got 4kW solar on the house and 3kWh battery storage, so we could go full EV, and this would do us 90% of the time, but what of the bikes and those regular further trips?
- 80% of our journeys are fetching and carrying around town in the evenings after work (I either Work from Home or are on the train) or usual town/family stuff at the weekend, so the car's sat outside the garage anyway during the day.
The Outlander PHEV therefore ticks all the boxes, and quite frankly, at the price point, I can't see anything else that matches it. And with the tow-bar being fitted with a tow-rack for the bikes, it's just about perfect.
So to date (and in the 6 months before buying) I've been grateful for these forums and those on the Interweb and Tubes for all the useful stuff and I feel I know what I'm buying into.
The Prius was a 'Just Drive' car, infact, it says those exact words in the handbook. Yes you can 'hypermile' or press the nearly-pointless EV button, but frankly, you just drive.
However, the post MY16 Outlanders + Watchdog give the likes of you and me much greater control of what's going on. Between mains charging, battery saving, petrol charging, B levels, states of charge, states of health, etc, there is so much more scope. I was just looking for guidance on making the best of it all.
So when I started seeing comments about battery degradation, it peaked my interest as I had got over such comments 10 years previous. Hence why I came and registered here. To date I have:
- Got back up to speed on the latest battery tech
- Reviewed both technical and interest led articles on EV's uses of such batteries.
- Clarified with Daniel what the Watchdog does
- Looked for evidence of Watchdog reports to see if they stack up to what others are saying
- Stumbled across some interesting articles about other pressures on the EV industry, which I will get to in a moment.
- Spoke to an expert in this theatre, purely through timing as I was only aware of the EV Drive-train talk through my Institutes mail-shot last week.
- Got you upset somehow, for which I apologise, I'm just trying to follow a train of thought that I hoped others had followed. Which appears you have.
- Looking to see if there really is an issue, and if so, how to simply fix it with all of the tools at our disposal.
So, to date we have:
- Evidence of battery replacements under warranty due to low Capacities, and at least 2 that I know of. To put this in context, in Roger's talk (Ford EV) he said that there had only been 3 Nissan Leaf battery replacements under warranty in total.
- Lot's of other PHEVs on the Watchdog with worrying SoC/SoH's being reported. Now, I know it takes a lot of work to fully test a battery pack properly, these reports are guesstimates by the BMS and maybe a S/W issue, but when the driver is seeing 10-20km knocked off their range, the driver doesn't care the reason.
- A significant pressure from sales and advertising on engineers to push the cars. This was the interesting article I mentioned: It covered the case that back in 2012ish when EV's were being properly marketed the engineers used to set the cars to the 80% SoC unless the driver opted to add the extra juice to full nominal charge (lets say that 95% mark). But the sales brochures showed the full charge range. So the advertising watchdogs said that if the 80% charge is what you want drivers to go to normally, that's all the range you can advertise. So the engineers are under increasing pressure to remove the setting if it looked bad on advertising. And with the Outlander PHEV being a short EV mode, you can imagine what knocking 20-30% off the range would look like.
- So I have no disrespect to the Mitsubishi engineers, the product is a technical and mechanical marvel, and right up our geek-street and green credentials. But unless Yuasa developed a new type of LE40 that defies all the other Li-Ion chemistries and allows the battery to charge to the apparent 95% without the usual degradation at that level, it will, in my honest opinion, lead to increased battery degradation that would, mile for mile, be greatly reduced by only charging to 80-85%.
- In response to this 95% charge, I think the engineers have set software that is overly pessimistic when the car is driven in certain ways, certain conditions and the battery treated in certain ways. All I have to date is circumstantial I know, such as Andy's experience in Australia in hot conditions and lots of faster driving, in contrast to the experiences of Gary in sub-zero Canadian driving around town.
But that is why I am here. What is the truth (as best we can ascertain), is there an issue, can it be fixed, can we use them a little differently to avoid possible issues or is it all a panic about nothing and I should 'Just Drive'?
Why should I be bothered: This is a once in a lifetime chance where I have the money to buy a nearly new car with a nearly new battery that I want to last the warranty without needing it. Like the '04 Prius.
So I will wait in interest to see what you can find out from the MMC engineers.
Now I really must get that car, especially as this got a little longer than I anticipated!
Cheers,
Tytalus.
P.S. The last specialist machinery I think I built was a working K-9 to take to charity events as Tom Baker :lol:
