Percentage EV when running in hybrid mode.

[Neverfuel]

the unknown variable will always be the switching methodology IMHO.

My Torque Pro dashboard tells me exactly what the engine output is (in terms of % of max output at that engine speed), as well as output of front and rear E-motor (in terms of kW) and the battery charge current. So, I think we can know.....

Is the Torque Pro app just instantaneous output or does is record the data to a log the you can download and analyse?

 

[anko]

As for the rest of your post let me put it this way. I hate the grid charge. :lol: and get rid of it straight away even on the highway if I am taking measurements. But mainly for the reason I stated here in another topic:

"I find I cannot take accurate measurements while ever the grid charge is in my Phev . Again how are we ever going to compare figures if we do not have a level playing field?. I can hear you saying "ok but I will press save and then reset the fuel computer" but I found out nearly 18 months ago (never touch the save button now) even then the SOC can drift which can affect my results. Or I forgot to note my measurement before using some more of the grid charge."

It gets worse :mrgreen: Wanted to know difference in MPG while towing with charged and depleted battery. I did realise that while towing, a charged battery would slip, even when running charge mode. And MPG would therefor be flattered. But I hoped that MPG on a depleted battery would still prove better than that. What I saw was that even when running in normal mode, SOC can still slip without you knowing it:

While towing, I disengaged Charge mode and waited for the engine to kick in again. Then I reset the board computer. Indeed, MPG was better than before, but SOC dropped from 30-ish to sometimes as low as 24% :lol: Believe me, without proper instrumentation, you would never know, as my engine never 'raced'. I should have reset my BC at 24% sort so.

 

[anko]

the unknown variable will always be the switching methodology IMHO.

My Torque Pro dashboard tells me exactly what the engine output is (in terms of % of max output at that engine speed), as well as output of front and rear E-motor (in terms of kW) and the battery charge current. So, I think we can know.....

Is the Torque Pro app just instantaneous output or does is record the data to a log the you can download and analyse?

It does allow you to select specific PIDs for logging and downloading as a CSV file. Warns you that selecting more PIDs will extend sweep length and such. Haven't played with that yet ....

 

[Trex]

The first thing to do is get all the quantities into minutes for such a short trip of 9.16Kms.
92.75kph = 1.546 km/min
10.03Lts/h = 0.167Lts/min
Now the trip of 9.16km distance divided by our 1.546km/min = 5.925 min
If the petrol motor had run all the time on this trip at 0.167Lts/min X 5.925 min = 0.989Lts consumed
But it did not run all the time and used 15.32km/Lt so 9.16km divided by 15.32km/L = 0.598Lts for 9.16km
Now the fun bit 0.598Lts used divided by 0.989Lts if motor ran all the time = 0.605 X 100 = 60.5% of the time motor actually running!.

How about simply deciding 9.25 by 15.32 ... (average consumption per 100 km / consumption per 100 km while engine is running). That will get you there much quicker .... :mrgreen:

Hi anko,

Yes and its about time you noticed that. :mrgreen: I had that calc up there for over 6 months. You are a bit slow there old mate. :lol: :lol: A simple ratio.

But seriously it is nice have 2 calcs confirm the result.

Regards Trex.

 

[anko]

Hi Trex,

More than 6 months :shock: ? It is still October 2015, right? Or are you saying you've tried to confuse us before? :lol:

 

[Grigou]

Unfortunately I don't have any datas (still waiting my chinese ELM327 ), but when I drive at 120 kph on motorways (about 125 kph on dashboard) I can see the diagram showing alternatively EV mode and parallel mode. Not in a ratio 40/60 % of course, but perhaps 30/70% or 20/80 or so ...

At 120 km/h it might. But at 121 real km/h it will stop doing so. This is not like "somewhere around 120 km/h it reaches the point where it can no longer produce electricity for EV range". No, this is a hard switch. As if you have just changed cars.

OK, so I was certainly at 120 or perhaps 119 kph when I made the observation (~125 on the dash)
Will try a little bit more next time, just to see the "switch effect" at 121 kph.

 

[Trex]

I like metric system :mrgreen:

:lol: and a French invention if my memory serves me well.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Hi Trex,

More than 6 months :shock: ? It is still October 2015, right? Or are you saying you've tried to confuse us before? :lol:

Yes calc from old topic more than 6mth ago. Sorry did not mean to confuse you or anybody. :lol:

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Unfortunately I don't have any datas (still waiting my chinese ELM327 ), but when I drive at 120 kph on motorways (about 125 kph on dashboard) I can see the diagram showing alternatively EV mode and parallel mode. Not in a ratio 40/60 % of course, but perhaps 30/70% or 20/80 or so ...

At 120 km/h it might. But at 121 real km/h it will stop doing so. This is not like "somewhere around 120 km/h it reaches the point where it can no longer produce electricity for EV range". No, this is a hard switch. As if you have just changed cars.

It will change to a alternating pattern of low engine load (between 50 and 60%, IIRC) / high engine load (approx. 75%). During the periods of low engine load, power is taken from the battery and fed into both motors and the generator to eliminate E-drag (the rear motor actually produces very little torque, liker 15 Nm or so). When the SOC hits the low water mark, the engine shifts to the higher load state and the SOC is lifted again to the high water mark. And so on.

Is this 120kph on dashboard or GPS when this happens? I cannot do those speeds here to test.

 

[Trex]

Plenty of excess torque to drive the generator if Mitsubishi want to do so at 120kph (bottom axis).

Regards Trex.

But at 121 km/h, only about 50 - 60% of engine power is needed for driving. And still there is no charging in normal mode. Like I said, above 120 km/h, it is a different car.

Yes and I am still sad I cannot see this in action. Bloody Australian governments. :lol:

 

[Trex]

As for the rest of your post let me put it this way. I hate the grid charge. :lol: and get rid of it straight away even on the highway if I am taking measurements. But mainly for the reason I stated here in another topic:

"I find I cannot take accurate measurements while ever the grid charge is in my Phev . Again how are we ever going to compare figures if we do not have a level playing field?. I can hear you saying "ok but I will press save and then reset the fuel computer" but I found out nearly 18 months ago (never touch the save button now) even then the SOC can drift which can affect my results. Or I forgot to note my measurement before using some more of the grid charge."

It gets worse :mrgreen: Wanted to know difference in MPG while towing with charged and depleted battery. I did realise that while towing, a charged battery would slip, even when running charge mode. And MPG would therefor be flattered. But I hoped that MPG on a depleted battery would still prove better than that. What I saw was that even when running in normal mode, SOC can still slip without you knowing it:

While towing, I disengaged Charge mode and waited for the engine to kick in again. Then I reset the board computer. Indeed, MPG was better than before, but SOC dropped from 30-ish to sometimes as low as 24% :lol: Believe me, without proper instrumentation, you would never know, as my engine never 'raced'. I should have reset my BC at 24% sort so.

Never towed with my Phev (separate car for that) but have often wondered what it is like. On my phev "empty " battery is 1 bar lit on the display of the MMCS and I have never seen that 1 bar disappear. Does it disappear when you get into the lower SOC ie < approx. 30%.? I presume it would.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

But getting back on topic. :lol:

We now have a reasonable easy way of working out percentages of ev at most speeds. Above 120kph may be a problem but that will not effect me for example.

How?

When the Petrol motor starts and is charging the drive battery, press reset on the phev's fuel computer and note that number.

After the phev does its hybrid thing of charge, ev, charge etc the number will reduce and settle down to lower number.

Divide last by first and multiply by 100 will give the percentage the petrol motor has run. Subtract the percentage the petrol motor ran from 100 to get percentage EV.

Example: At 60kph on the test I did the other day the fuel computer on the reset read 10L/100k (petrol motor running and charging) and then when it did its hybrid thing of charge, ev mode etc it would be averaged out at 6.7L/100k.

So in my case 6.7/10 x 100 =67% petrol motor ran 100-67 gives 33% EV.

Is that too confusing to understand?

Suggestions?

Regards Trex.

 

[maby]

Never towed with my Phev (separate car for that) but have often wondered what it is like. On my phev "empty " battery is 1 bar lit on the display of the MMCS and I have never seen that 1 bar disappear. Does it disappear when you get into the lower SOC ie < approx. 30%.? I presume it would.

Regards Trex.

It certainly does - and it does not take much to make it do so. I guess that most of your driving is on relatively flat roads and light traffic - accelerating up a moderately steep hill or accelerating reasonably hard off the traffic lights will continue to pull the battery down and can easily get the MMCS display showing zero bars.

 

[Trex]

Never towed with my Phev (separate car for that) but have often wondered what it is like. On my phev "empty " battery is 1 bar lit on the display of the MMCS and I have never seen that 1 bar disappear. Does it disappear when you get into the lower SOC ie < approx. 30%.? I presume it would.

Regards Trex.

It certainly does - and it does not take much to make it do so. I guess that most of your driving is on relatively flat roads and light traffic - accelerating up a moderately steep hill or accelerating reasonably hard off the traffic lights will continue to pull the battery down and can easily get the MMCS display showing zero bars.

Hi maby,

Thought so about the 1 bar lit.

Yep reasonable flat up and down the coast in NSW where I mainly drive but about 1 hour west of here we have the great dividing range (highest elevation about 5000ft) which I have to climb fairly regularly. You would not want less than about 40% SOC to climb it (I always go to about 50% SOC). If my phev ever gets to 1 bar that charge button is pressed except for a test I did the other day to see the fuel consumption in series mode. Too flat around my small city on the coast to challenge the Phev which of cause is nearly always in EV mode. Traffic can get hectic at peak hour through the week but nothing like Sydney or London (which I have driven through).

Regards Trex.

Ps Before the phev was released in Australia the Chevy Volt (Holden Volt here) came here first and I read where a reviewer tried to climb the great dividing range with a flat drive battery and had limited performance mode come on and ended up crawling up it so I was forewarned.

 

[anko]

Unfortunately I don't have any datas (still waiting my chinese ELM327 ), but when I drive at 120 kph on motorways (about 125 kph on dashboard) I can see the diagram showing alternatively EV mode and parallel mode. Not in a ratio 40/60 % of course, but perhaps 30/70% or 20/80 or so ...

At 120 km/h it might. But at 121 real km/h it will stop doing so. This is not like "somewhere around 120 km/h it reaches the point where it can no longer produce electricity for EV range". No, this is a hard switch. As if you have just changed cars.

It will change to a alternating pattern of low engine load (between 50 and 60%, IIRC) / high engine load (approx. 75%). During the periods of low engine load, power is taken from the battery and fed into both motors and the generator to eliminate E-drag (the rear motor actually produces very little torque, liker 15 Nm or so). When the SOC hits the low water mark, the engine shifts to the higher load state and the SOC is lifted again to the high water mark. And so on.

Is this 120kph on dashboard or GPS when this happens? I cannot do those speeds here to test.

Real km/h. As in GPS. Sorry for that.

 

[anko]

Never towed with my Phev (separate car for that) but have often wondered what it is like.

I think it is great. Cannot compare it with a big V8 style SUV or something like that, but for a 2.0 liter non-turbo car it handles very well. The relatively heigh weight adds to stability and comfort. It does need a little forward thinking though, with respect to maintaining SOC for the right moments. Especially when climbing is involved. But yesterday, returning from Paris (500 km trip) I purposely dropped SOC to '0' and I / it was perfectly fine with that.

Never towed with my Phev (separate car for that) but have often wondered what it is like. On my phev "empty " battery is 1 bar lit on the display of the MMCS and I have never seen that 1 bar disappear. Does it disappear when you get into the lower SOC ie < approx. 30%.? I presume it would.

It does. Fail to register at what particular %. If any.

Cheers, Anko

 

[maby]

....
Cannot compare it with a big V8 style SUV or something like that,

...

When the going gets tough, there is a lot to be said for 4.5 litres of turbo-charged diesel feeding into a proper automatic gearbox with torque converter and a high-low transfer box giving the equivalent of an eight speed transmission!

 

[Grigou]

Unfortunately I don't have any datas (still waiting my chinese ELM327 ), but when I drive at 120 kph on motorways (about 125 kph on dashboard) I can see the diagram showing alternatively EV mode and parallel mode. Not in a ratio 40/60 % of course, but perhaps 30/70% or 20/80 or so ...

At 120 km/h it might. But at 121 real km/h it will stop doing so. This is not like "somewhere around 120 km/h it reaches the point where it can no longer produce electricity for EV range". No, this is a hard switch. As if you have just changed cars.

OK, so I was certainly at 120 or perhaps 119 kph when I made the observation (~125 on the dash)
Will try a little bit more next time, just to see the "switch effect" at 121 kph.

I tested it last sunday on motorway : I could reach 129 kph on the dash in pure EV mode, but it was a downhill drive at this moment.
More : it seems that there is an hysteresis phenomenon in the 120-125 range (GPS) : you can probably reach 124 to 125 kph in EV, lets say 125, and at 126 the engine starts. But if you slow down to 122 the engine is still here. It will stop at 119 or 120 I presume.

After that, on flat road, I asked my wife to use her smartphone's GPS and stayed with cruise control at 121-122 kph : the EV mode did perfectly work too.

 

[anko]

Will test tomorrow, logging GPS speed, RPM, fuel consumption and some more ....

 

[anko]

As promised, I have tested (or at least try to test) at which speed you can no longer drive in EV mode, even with high SOC. Unfortunately, driving conditions where not good / consistent enough do a definitive test, but ….

I think there are two different phenomenas that I have witnessed each with a its own km/h boundary:
- an automatic switchover from EV mode to parallel mode, even with full battery
- a change to the hysteresis cycle from the typical on / off pattern to a working harder / working less hard pattern

The second, I still think happens at 120 km/h. But again, more testing is needed for a positive confirmation. The first seems indeed to happen at approx. 126 km/h, like you said. As a matter of fact, until I started playing with my OBD tools, I also thought it was 126 km/h. But I think I must have changed my mind when I saw the change to the hysteresis cycle happen at 120 km/h and did not realise these two could be independent.

Both the engagement of parallel drive at 126 kmh as the change in the hysteresis cycle are shown in this diagram. Unfortunately, I do not have a diagram (yet) of the hysteresis cycle at low SOC.