Outlander PHEV Sub-Zero Operation Question

[PHEV07]

Just tried starting car in EV Mode. No go as Battery Temperature reported being to cold. Temp on card display was -14'C Battery gauge still shows to the left of the 1/5th vertical bar.

I am not at all impressed with what Mitdubishi did to these cars (2033 to 2025). For temperatures colder than -14'C we are now the proud owners of a Hybrid. Only when the Battery is warmer than -14'C can we drive our cars as Plug-in Hybrids.

In warm weather these 2023 to 2025 are great vehicles, no doubt about it.

But they are rated for winter weather. Period.

 

[ronnieracoon]

A PHEV that the manufacturer tpouts as being ready for what Canada gas to throw at it, is "ready for adventure", etc. shouldn't have to be babied like this and start throwing reduced power etc. messages at temperatures in the -10C to -20C range. As engineered the 23/24 (25?) models are "unfit for purpose" in that they do not function properly under conditions normally expected in locations where they are sold and intended to be operated.

The cold related issues being experienced are the result of poor engineering and corner cutting by Mitsubishi and not properly be left to owners to find workarounds.

The company is clearly dodging its responsibility particularly in that with the '23 model they provided misleading documentation indicating that a battery heater was "standard" equipment when it was not. They have made no effort to make whole its customers who purchased these vehicles under false pretenses.

IMO, old start issues aside, potential buyers should be very wary of purchasing anything from a company that treats its customers as Mitsubishi has done with the PHEV models in question.

I would urge you not to generalize. There are many users that have not experienced an cold start issues. As a matter, we are in cold climate, but have not experienced anything over - 25 in the last 2 years. Yes it might happen, but still rare and many of us have options.Garage, charging, or waiting out. many ice cars also have difficulties at these temps.

 

[ronnieracoon]

There are no guarantees sometimes. I will not trash the car for a few days of -30 starts that are problematic if so. None in the 2 years by the way.

 

[PHEV07]

Just tried starting car in EV Mode. No go as Battery Temperature reported being to cold. Temp on card display was -14'C Battery gauge still shows to the left of the 1/5th vertical bar.

I am not at all impressed with what Mitdubishi did to these cars (2033 to 2025). For temperatures colder than -14'C we are now the proud owners of a Hybrid. Only when the Battery is warmer than -14'C can we drive our cars as Plug-in Hybrids.

In warm weather these 2023 to 2025 are great vehicles, no doubt about it.

But they are rated for winter weather. Period.

-11'C and still in Turtle Mode, not able to set to EV Mode because Battery is too cold.... still.

 

[drwho]

I did not plug it in as this is the 1st time my 2024 Gt has seen Temperatures hit -15'C.

Basically just testing to see how car reacts under various conditions, for now.

My Battey was still 90% Full when I attempted to start Car in EV Mode.

I will also be interested to know, Andre, how your battery fares when you have it plugged in overnight on a minus 15 or minus 18 night. I would think it would still run as normal at that point. BTW, do you park in a garage or outside?
Dave

 

[drwho]

Just tried starting car in EV Mode. No go as Battery Temperature reported being to cold. Temp on card display was -14'C Battery gauge still shows to the left of the 1/5th vertical bar.

I am not at all impressed with what Mitdubishi did to these cars (2033 to 2025). For temperatures colder than -14'C we are now the proud owners of a Hybrid. Only when the Battery is warmer than -14'C can we drive our cars as Plug-in Hybrids.

In warm weather these 2023 to 2025 are great vehicles, no doubt about it.

But they are rated for winter weather. Period.

I agree Andre. I'm not concerned myself, because Toronto hasn't experienced minus 20 temps in many years. Minus 10 is about all we get. Having said that, we do have an older Subaru Legacy wagon as a second vehicle when required.
It always seems to start no problem in cold weather, however, with 250k kilometers on it, it's not a vehicle that we would driving a long distance winter or summer.
Now that we know of the issue, through everyone else's unhappy experiences in the cold, in the next year or three we will replace the Subaru with a 3 to 5 year old four-wheel drive Toyota or something, so that we have a vehicle to use in really cold weather.
Also, we're both 70 now, so it really cold weather we're not bloody going anywhere anyway. We just can't be bothered.
I suspect the backup gas vehicle is a way to go. Just a small, well used one.

 

[Lon12]

I would urge you not to generalize. There are many users that have not experienced an cold start issues. As a matter, we are in cold climate, but have not experienced anything over - 25 in the last 2 years. Yes it might happen, but still rare and many of us have options.Garage, charging, or waiting out. many ice cars also have difficulties at these temps.

"many of us have options.Garage, charging, or waiting out. many ice cars also have difficulties at these temps."
Well we know charging really doesn't help. Many ice cars have issues as well but at least you can normally just boost the12v or spray ether into the carb to get them started at -40ºC. I guess if you are retired waiting it out is a good option.
I'd say the best option is to have a different vehicle on standby.

 

[Lon12]

-11'C and still in Turtle Mode, not able to set to EV Mode because Battery is too cold.... still.View attachment 1661

I feel your pain. We took delivery of the car during our -30ºC cold snap two years ago. I documented the issues as much as I could on the forum back then. Was too late to get our 2018 GT back. We never had a single issue with it.

 

[ArthurUK]

In the UK when the ambient is < +5C my 2019 2.4L always starts on ICE and runs on it for maybe 20minutes before allowing the EV to take over.

Plenty of detail about charging at low temperatures on the web, one of many sites:

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-410-charging-at-high-and-low-temperatures
"Lithium Ion: Li-ion can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and NO charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode.
During charge, the internal cell resistance causes a slight temperature rise that compensates for some of the cold.
The internal resistance of all batteries rises when cold, prolonging charge times noticeably.
This also affects discharge performance noticeably with Li-ion"

They all say the same - do not charge Li-ion below 0c, if you try, it will reduce its life.

Frankly I am surprised they even sell this vehicle in cold climate regions, they know full well it will not charge.
I did a project years ago in Ontario (Kapuskasing), it was -40c for weeks and I remember having sump heaters to stop the engine oil freezing overnight !
The ambient didnt rise above -20c so you would never be able to charge a Li-ion.

How do Tesla cope ? do they also disable charging <0c ?

 

[PHEV07]

I will also be interested to know, Andre, how your battery fares when you have it plugged in overnight on a minus 15 or minus 18 night. I would think it would still run as normal at that point. BTW, do you park in a garage or outside?
Dave

I park my vehicle outside.

All I have is access to a 120VAC -15A Outlet and a separate 220VAC - 20A Outlet.

Andre

 

[PHEV07]

I feel your pain. We took delivery of the car during our -30ºC cold snap two years ago. I documented the issues as much as I could on the forum back then. Was too late to get our 2018 GT back. We never had a single issue with it.

Thanks Lon12

I will look up your previous posts.

I agree, I never had the issue of not being able to start my 2018 and 2022 at temperatures as low as -30'C. Car may have started the ICE initially at Temps lower than -20'C but after a few minutes when the Battery warmed up (using the Internal Resistive Heater) car would go into EV Mode or I could change it to EV Mode myself.

The only draw back was the Battery Size and the Battery degradation (due to Software Problems) But both the 2018 and 2022 were great winter Vehicle.

This 2024? Merely a Hybrid Vehicle that doesn't even warm up the Drive Battery when the ICE is running.

Not impressed at all once the Temperatures reach a mere -11'C.

I am still wondering what will happen at -10'C or then again, at what tempeeagure I will be able to Drive in EV Mode again.

This is why I have not Plugged in the Charging Cable yet but will do so once this part of my test is completed.

Andre

 

[Lon12]

In the UK when the ambient is < +5C my 2019 2.4L always starts on ICE and runs on it for maybe 20minutes before allowing the EV to take over.

Plenty of detail about charging at low temperatures on the web, one of many sites:

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-410-charging-at-high-and-low-temperatures
"Lithium Ion: Li-ion can be fast charged from 5°C to 45°C (41 to 113°F). Below 5°C, the charge current should be reduced, and NO charging is permitted at freezing temperatures because of the reduced diffusion rates on the anode.
During charge, the internal cell resistance causes a slight temperature rise that compensates for some of the cold.
The internal resistance of all batteries rises when cold, prolonging charge times noticeably.
This also affects discharge performance noticeably with Li-ion"

They all say the same - do not charge Li-ion below 0c, if you try, it will reduce its life.

Frankly I am surprised they even sell this vehicle in cold climate regions, they know full well it will not charge.
I did a project years ago in Ontario (Kapuskasing), it was -40c for weeks and I remember having sump heaters to stop the engine oil freezing overnight !
The ambient didnt rise above -20c so you would never be able to charge a Li-ion.

How do Tesla cope ? do they also disable charging <0c ?

Tesla have a great battery heater. If you watch the YouTube video's of trying to supercharge a cold battery you will see they don't charge until the battery has warmed up. They also don't give you any regen unless the battery is warm.

 

[ArthurUK]

Thanks, so thats the work around.
So does the Outlander have a similar heater for cold climate regions ?
I know the UK model is looped into the A/C circuit for cooling, but that wont help heat it up.

 

[PHEV07]

Thanks, so thats the work around.
So does the Outlander have a similar heater for cold climate regions ?
I know the UK model is looped into the A/C circuit for cooling, but that wont help heat it up.

For North America the 2018 to 2022 PHEVs did have a Resistive Cab Heater that worked till the Temperature dropped below -10'C and we wore winter wear. If we wanted to stay warm and increase the request for heat the ICE would start up but then, selecting temp of 18 or 19'C the EV Mode would turn back on again and kept the Cab Luke warm.

The other big difference for the 2018 to 2022 is that these years had a Resistive Heater inbended in the Drive Battery Box. The 2023 to 2025 do not, and only use a Heat Pump, which does not warm the Battery at all, so there is no way to keep the Battery warm nor from freezing up.

Worst part with these post 2022 PHEV is that once the Battery Temperature reaches -25'C not only may the Car not be started to Ready but the ICE may not even start at all until the Battery Temperature warms up.

I have even read reports that once the Battery gets that cold, since the Computef liberally turns off the operation, charging the Battery may not be possible.

Had I know all this before I would have stayed with my 2022.

For Temperatures above 0'C I can attest that these post 2023 PHEVs are great cars but not at all for Temperatures below -10'C

 

[Lon12]

For North America the 2018 to 2022 PHEVs did have a Resistive Cab Heater that work till the Temperature dropped below heat and we wore winter wear. If we wanted to stay warm and increase the request for heat the ICE would start up but selecting temp of 18 or 19'C the EV Mode would turn back on again and kept the Cab Luke warm.

The other big difference that the 2018 to 2022 is that these years had a Resisted heater intended in tge Drive Battery Box. The 2023 to 2025 do not so there is no way to keep the Battery warmnor from freezing up.

Worst part with these post 2023 PHEV is that once the Battery Temperature reaches -25'C not only can the Car not be started to Ready Mode but the ICE may not even start until the Battery Temperature warms up.

I have even read reports that once the Battery gets that cold, since the Computef liberally turns off the operation, charging had car may not be possible.

Had I know all this before I would have stayed with my 2022.

For Temperatures over O'C I can attest that these pre 2023 models are great cars but not at all for the 2023 and newer.

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/threads/cold-weather-performance-north-american-2023.5946/post-60933
It has been below -15ºC in Calgary for a week now. So frustrating to be hovering around the heat pump cutoff temperature. I've put the space heater back in the car. It actually helps warm up the interior faster than waiting for the engine to warm up. It is also enough heat to leave the car in EV mode. Just have to keep the HVAC off. But as I mentioned, I have to turn on the defrost for a few seconds every now and then to clear the window condensation.

 

[PHEV07]

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/threads/cold-weather-performance-north-american-2023.5946/post-60933
It has been below -15ºC in Calgary for a week now. So frustrating to be hovering around the heat pump cutoff temperature. I've put the space heater back in the car. It actually helps warm up the interior faster than waiting for the engine to warm up. It is also enough heat to leave the car in EV mode. Just have to keep the HVAC off. But as I mentioned, I have to turn on the defrost for a few seconds every now and then to clear the window condensation.

I had also started using a 850W Car Warmer (Yep still had one around)

But started using a 1500W Ceramic Heater until the HVAC is warm enough from ICE running. At about 30'C on the Air Vent Temperature, I turn off the 1500W Invertor

 

[ArthurUK]

OK, so they changed from a resistive heater in the battery to a heatpump, and basically its not adequate.
It seems as if you could actually be stranded if it it will not allow the ICE to start in very cold weather.
The UK model has the 5kW Ceramic water heater (powered from the 300V Battery) under the left hand seat to provide cabin heating, and a three way coolant valve to use ICE, this works well.

 

[PHEV07]

OK, so they changed from a resistive heater in the battery to a heatpump, and basically its not adequate.
It seems as if you could actually be stranded if it it will not allow the ICE to start in very cold weather.
The UK model has the 5kW Ceramic water heater (powered from the 300V Battery) under the left hand seat to provide cabin heating, and a three way coolant valve to use ICE, this works well.

Correct in part.

The Heat Pump replaced the Cab Resistive Heater but does not heat the Battery. The Battery used to have a Resistive Heater built into the Battery Pack.

Now the 2023 to 2025 PHEVs have no Resistive or Ceramic heaters, just the Heat Pump that is useless at Temps below -10'C.

Some ppl at Mitsubishi should be fired over this issue.

You mention a Ceramic Heater under the left hand seat. Can you actually see it? If yes, is it warm to the touch?

 

[Lon12]

Here is a FLIR picture of the heater (under front seat) fluid lines I took from our 2018. It really bugged me that they ran the lines outside of the vehicle and didn't insulate them.

 

[PHEV07]

Here is a FLIR picture of the heater (under front seat) fluid lines I took from our 2018. It really bugged me that they ran the lines outside of the vehicle and didn't insulate them.
View attachment 1665View attachment 1666

Thanks for photos.

On your 2023, do you have a rectangular opening with aluminum fins, on the left side of the Driver Seat?

I will post a photo a bit later.