Lindqvist method : DIY BMU Battery Reset

[MadTechNutter]

I'm using Lithium battery (including self make battery pack), with charging / discharging in RC Model Airplanes since 2001

I also experience in the hard way what is the result to store for 5/6 years battery left in fully charged status .. battery capable to deliver over 10A current, now capable to handle no more then 1A when used on full load on an airplane (10 reduction factor in a RC airplane, it means there is no more power for fly)

Oh I am hearing you very loud and clear here.

About 10 years ago I used 7s flight Lipo's in an electric bicycle. They had 20C discharge ability but the bike never demanded more than 2C and it went up the hills like a rocket when I first installed them.
So I always kept them fully charged and ready for my next bike ride, not knowing how detrimental that was.
Less than a year later they were a dud. I may have used the bike only 30 times. Of course I have a proper voltage display while I rode it and what I noticed was the huge voltage drop when I went up even only light hills.
So what happened here is that the internal resistance of the battery goes up when the battery is held for a long time at full charge.

What I am seeing right now with my PHEV is unfortunately looking more and more like my bicycle disaster.
After a (12V disconnected) charge I always see 45km range on the guessometer.
After the first light incline on my local highway where I am barely keeping it at 80km/h it drops straight away to 35km range.
I usually manage 39-40km range but I am driving like a grandmother (some people have honked their horn at me) and using B0 coasting as much as I can and alway paddle down to brake.
I need 36km for my daily drive so I don't have any other choice if I want to avoid the ICE.

 

[Pomst]

I'm using Lithium battery (including self make battery pack), with charging / discharging in RC Model Airplanes since 2001

I also experience in the hard way what is the result to store for 5/6 years battery left in fully charged status .. battery capable to deliver over 10A current, now capable to handle no more then 1A when used on full load on an airplane (10 reduction factor in a RC airplane, it means there is no more power for fly)

Oh I am hearing you very loud and clear here.

About 10 years ago I used 7s flight Lipo's in an electric bicycle. They had 20C discharge ability but the bike never demanded more than 2C and it went up the hills like a rocket when I first installed them.
So I always kept them fully charged and ready for my next bike ride, not knowing how detrimental that was.
Less than a year later they were a dud. I may have used the bike only 30 times. Of course I have a proper voltage display while I rode it and what I noticed was the huge voltage drop when I went up even only light hills.
So what happened here is that the internal resistance of the battery goes up when the battery is held for a long time at full charge.

What I am seeing right now with my PHEV is unfortunately looking more and more like my bicycle disaster.
After a (12V disconnected) charge I always see 45km range on the guessometer.
After the first light incline on my local highway where I am barely keeping it at 80km/h it drops straight away to 35km range.
I usually manage 39-40km range but I am driving like a grandmother (some people have honked their horn at me) and using B0 coasting as much as I can and alway paddle down to brake.
I need 36km for my daily drive so I don't have any other choice if I want to avoid the ICE.

RC batteries are nothing like EV batteries.

RC batteries are High Discharge and High Charge which if used kills the cell quickly.
Storage of these types of cells is excellent if the cell is Ok since the internal resistance is very, very low.
What kills them is the amount of current they use, basically the C rating that is used for charging/discharging.

Sorry to be "that guy", but if you are using a 7S pack for a bike that means you will definitely be using more then 2C.
A normal 20C pack is about 4Ah which is very little. With 2C you would be pulling 8A, which at 7S is 25.9V nominal.
That means that if you were not using more then 2C then your bike would not be producing more then 207.2Watt (8A * 25.9V) of power at any time, which is just not possible.
If you want an experience of "went up the hills like a rocket" you need 500W or more, that would give you at least 6C or more depending on your definition of "rocket".
Take peak current and hill variations in to account and you are probably looking at peaks of 10C to 15C discharge (40A to 60A peak) which would kill a pack quickly.

I have about 9KWh of Prius+ cells (from crashed Taxis with 400 000+km on the clock mind you) in my garage.
All of which have an internal resistance of about 1mOhm (basically lower then I can measure).
All of them have been sitting for the past 2 years with No measurable degradation what so ever. Every single one of the 56 cells perform as new.
I also have about 2kWh of Prius+ cells fully charged (4.1V) for the past year with no measurable degradation.

Degradation of EV Lithium cells is very small over a 10 year period.
Anyone saying anything else has far too little experience with batteries.
As the icing on that statement I would like to point out that if this was not the case then Tesla would never give the warranty they do.

Here are some images of the batteries I am working on currently.
Many packs from Prius+ (or V if you like) and one large pack from a VW GTe.

 

[MadTechNutter]

I'm using Lithium battery (including self make battery pack), with charging / discharging in RC Model Airplanes since 2001

I also experience in the hard way what is the result to store for 5/6 years battery left in fully charged status .. battery capable to deliver over 10A current, now capable to handle no more then 1A when used on full load on an airplane (10 reduction factor in a RC airplane, it means there is no more power for fly)

Oh I am hearing you very loud and clear here.

About 10 years ago I used 7s flight Lipo's in an electric bicycle. They had 20C discharge ability but the bike never demanded more than 2C and it went up the hills like a rocket when I first installed them.
So I always kept them fully charged and ready for my next bike ride, not knowing how detrimental that was.
Less than a year later they were a dud. I may have used the bike only 30 times. Of course I have a proper voltage display while I rode it and what I noticed was the huge voltage drop when I went up even only light hills.
So what happened here is that the internal resistance of the battery goes up when the battery is held for a long time at full charge.

What I am seeing right now with my PHEV is unfortunately looking more and more like my bicycle disaster.
After a (12V disconnected) charge I always see 45km range on the guessometer.
After the first light incline on my local highway where I am barely keeping it at 80km/h it drops straight away to 35km range.
I usually manage 39-40km range but I am driving like a grandmother (some people have honked their horn at me) and using B0 coasting as much as I can and alway paddle down to brake.
I need 36km for my daily drive so I don't have any other choice if I want to avoid the ICE.

RC batteries are nothing like EV batteries.

RC batteries are High Discharge and High Charge which if used kills the cell quickly.
Storage of these types of cells is excellent if the cell is Ok since the internal resistance is very, very low.
What kills them is the amount of current they use, basically the C rating that is used for charging/discharging.

Sorry to be "that guy", but if you are using a 7S pack for a bike that means you will definitely be using more then 2C.
A normal 20C pack is about 4Ah which is very little. With 2C you would be pulling 8A, which at 7S is 25.9V nominal.
That means that if you were not using more then 2C then your bike would not be producing more then 207.2Watt (8A * 25.9V) of power at any time, which is just not possible.
If you want an experience of "went up the hills like a rocket" you need 500W or more, that would give you at least 6C or more depending on your definition of "rocket".
Take peak current and hill variations in to account and you are probably looking at peaks of 10C to 15C discharge (40A to 60A peak) which would kill a pack quickly.

I have about 9KWh of Prius+ cells (from crashed Taxis with 400 000+km on the clock mind you) in my garage.
All of which have an internal resistance of about 1mOhm (basically lower then I can measure).
All of them have been sitting for the past 2 years with No measurable degradation what so ever. Every single one of the 56 cells perform as new.
I also have about 2kWh of Prius+ cells fully charged (4.1V) for the past year with no measurable degradation.

Degradation of EV Lithium cells is very small over a 10 year period.
Anyone saying anything else has far too little experience with batteries.
As the icing on that statement I would like to point out that if this was not the case then Tesla would never give the warranty they do.

Here are some images of the batteries I am working on currently.
Many packs from Prius+ (or V if you like) and one large pack from a VW GTe.

WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK!
While it is admirable that you collect batteries, that can hardly be representative for the huge amount of people who are dissatisfied with their PHEV
battery degradation, otherwise we would not be having all these forum threads about the topic and guys like Andy on Youtube posting 100's of Videos.
Tesla can not be compared here as in general use they might be cycled 1-2 times a week , while the PHEV mostly daily and in some cases held every night at 4.1V cell voltage.

As for my bike it does have a 200W 24V motor that originally ran on NiCads. This 8.33A at the rated voltage.
The battery pack consisted of 3 x 3.3Ah 7s batteries = 9.9Ah.
When new and fully charged the voltage would stay above 28.5V on the hill in question. That is 9.89A, less than 1C of the pack.
Assuming I actually had a motor that was capable of 500W, 2C would be 564W and more than enough to deliver and a whole order of magnitude less than what it is rated for, unlike EV batteries.
However the motor has only 200W rated and would have been running at 282W up that hill and maintained the speed at 20km/h. Bike has a speed limiter at 23km/h, it is something legal.
After a year held at full charge (LiPos are charged up to 4.2V it would not go up faster than 9km/h, so relatively speaking it used to 'fly' up those hills like a 'rocket'.

Yes LiPos are not EV batteries we all know that.
They are nevertheless all Li-Ion batteries.
It is common knowledge that all Li-Ion batteries suffer degradation when stored at full charge.
There is a lot of science, research and empirical evidence over the last 25 years that supports the claim that Li-Ion batteries are best stored at 3.7V
There is also some evidence suggesting that keeping batteries stored at temperatures near 0˚C is beneficial.
This MIGHT also have something to do why Australian users of the car are complaining more about battery degradation than from countries with colder climates.

 

[Darkflow]

With that helpful negative terminal on - off timing information (thank you), I think I'm going to whip up a 3.2 second monostable driving a chunky relay, just to make sure the timing is correct.

 

[Pomst]

Oh I am hearing you very loud and clear here.

About 10 years ago I used 7s flight Lipo's in an electric bicycle. They had 20C discharge ability but the bike never demanded more than 2C and it went up the hills like a rocket when I first installed them.
So I always kept them fully charged and ready for my next bike ride, not knowing how detrimental that was.
Less than a year later they were a dud. I may have used the bike only 30 times. Of course I have a proper voltage display while I rode it and what I noticed was the huge voltage drop when I went up even only light hills.
So what happened here is that the internal resistance of the battery goes up when the battery is held for a long time at full charge.

What I am seeing right now with my PHEV is unfortunately looking more and more like my bicycle disaster.
After a (12V disconnected) charge I always see 45km range on the guessometer.
After the first light incline on my local highway where I am barely keeping it at 80km/h it drops straight away to 35km range.
I usually manage 39-40km range but I am driving like a grandmother (some people have honked their horn at me) and using B0 coasting as much as I can and alway paddle down to brake.
I need 36km for my daily drive so I don't have any other choice if I want to avoid the ICE.

RC batteries are nothing like EV batteries.

RC batteries are High Discharge and High Charge which if used kills the cell quickly.
Storage of these types of cells is excellent if the cell is Ok since the internal resistance is very, very low.
What kills them is the amount of current they use, basically the C rating that is used for charging/discharging.

Sorry to be "that guy", but if you are using a 7S pack for a bike that means you will definitely be using more then 2C.
A normal 20C pack is about 4Ah which is very little. With 2C you would be pulling 8A, which at 7S is 25.9V nominal.
That means that if you were not using more then 2C then your bike would not be producing more then 207.2Watt (8A * 25.9V) of power at any time, which is just not possible.
If you want an experience of "went up the hills like a rocket" you need 500W or more, that would give you at least 6C or more depending on your definition of "rocket".
Take peak current and hill variations in to account and you are probably looking at peaks of 10C to 15C discharge (40A to 60A peak) which would kill a pack quickly.

I have about 9KWh of Prius+ cells (from crashed Taxis with 400 000+km on the clock mind you) in my garage.
All of which have an internal resistance of about 1mOhm (basically lower then I can measure).
All of them have been sitting for the past 2 years with No measurable degradation what so ever. Every single one of the 56 cells perform as new.
I also have about 2kWh of Prius+ cells fully charged (4.1V) for the past year with no measurable degradation.

Degradation of EV Lithium cells is very small over a 10 year period.
Anyone saying anything else has far too little experience with batteries.
As the icing on that statement I would like to point out that if this was not the case then Tesla would never give the warranty they do.

Here are some images of the batteries I am working on currently.
Many packs from Prius+ (or V if you like) and one large pack from a VW GTe.

WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK!
While it is admirable that you collect batteries, that can hardly be representative for the huge amount of people who are dissatisfied with their PHEV
battery degradation, otherwise we would not be having all these forum threads about the topic and guys like Andy on Youtube posting 100's of Videos.
Tesla can not be compared here as in general use they might be cycled 1-2 times a week , while the PHEV mostly daily and in some cases held every night at 4.1V cell voltage.

As for my bike it does have a 200W 24V motor that originally ran on NiCads. This 8.33A at the rated voltage.
The battery pack consisted of 3 x 3.3Ah 7s batteries = 9.9Ah.
When new and fully charged the voltage would stay above 28.5V on the hill in question. That is 9.89A, less than 1C of the pack.
Assuming I actually had a motor that was capable of 500W, 2C would be 564W and more than enough to deliver and a whole order of magnitude less than what it is rated for, unlike EV batteries.
However the motor has only 200W rated and would have been running at 282W up that hill and maintained the speed at 20km/h. Bike has a speed limiter at 23km/h, it is something legal.
After a year held at full charge (LiPos are charged up to 4.2V it would not go up faster than 9km/h, so relatively speaking it used to 'fly' up those hills like a 'rocket'.

Yes LiPos are not EV batteries we all know that.
They are nevertheless all Li-Ion batteries.
It is common knowledge that all Li-Ion batteries suffer degradation when stored at full charge.
There is a lot of science, research and empirical evidence over the last 25 years that supports the claim that Li-Ion batteries are best stored at 3.7V
There is also some evidence suggesting that keeping batteries stored at temperatures near 0˚C is beneficial.
This MIGHT also have something to do why Australian users of the car are complaining more about battery degradation than from countries with colder climates.

First off you are misunderstanding. I am not saying there is no issue with the PHEV.
The issues with the PHEV are probably software or hardware related. They are probably not related to the actual cells and that's what I ment.
Cell degradation is measurable and if MMC has not made massive mistakes in their implementation any BMS could measure SoC and SoH easy.
SoH could not be reset by simple methods if the issues people are seeing was based on chemistry of the cells. This is clearly software related in my opinion, all evidence points to it.

Secondly, you have you calculations way off and it proves my point on experience of batteries.
The voltage of the cell drops under load, depending on the load the cell drops differently when the current increases. My estimates of the load on your cells are based on about 4 packs of hand built bicycle batteries and a dozen of motors with anything from custom controllers to Chinese ones.
A 200w motor is 200w continuously not peak, it could easily peak 600w or more if the controller allows it. Like
I said, it depends on your definition of "rocket", 200w is nothing. Just pedaling gives you 300-400w power.
Assuming you didn't, if you had a proper controller like a Cycle Analyst V3 you would see what I am talking about.
What does 3x 3.3Ah 7S mean? Is it a 7S pack or a 7S3P pack? Because the two are vastly different and effect the C rating dramatically. Irrespective of which, this experiences is not relatable to the cells in an EV pack.

My experience in batteries is not only gathering batteries and looking at them.
I build stuff from them and reverse engineer the BMS systems on the EV packs.
As I stated, EV batteries do not degrade much at all over a 10 year period because of their nature and the strict limits in the BMS.
RC batteries are like a dragster motor, they run hot and fast but die quickly.
The two are not comparable in any way shape or form.

 

[MadTechNutter]

[

RC batteries are nothing like EV batteries.

RC batteries are High Discharge and High Charge which if used kills the cell quickly.
Storage of these types of cells is excellent if the cell is Ok since the internal resistance is very, very low.
What kills them is the amount of current they use, basically the C rating that is used for charging/discharging.

Sorry to be "that guy", but if you are using a 7S pack for a bike that means you will definitely be using more then 2C.
A normal 20C pack is about 4Ah which is very little. With 2C you would be pulling 8A, which at 7S is 25.9V nominal.
That means that if you were not using more then 2C then your bike would not be producing more then 207.2Watt (8A * 25.9V) of power at any time, which is just not possible.
If you want an experience of "went up the hills like a rocket" you need 500W or more, that would give you at least 6C or more depending on your definition of "rocket".
Take peak current and hill variations in to account and you are probably looking at peaks of 10C to 15C discharge (40A to 60A peak) which would kill a pack quickly.

I have about 9KWh of Prius+ cells (from crashed Taxis with 400 000+km on the clock mind you) in my garage.
All of which have an internal resistance of about 1mOhm (basically lower then I can measure).
All of them have been sitting for the past 2 years with No measurable degradation what so ever. Every single one of the 56 cells perform as new.
I also have about 2kWh of Prius+ cells fully charged (4.1V) for the past year with no measurable degradation.

Degradation of EV Lithium cells is very small over a 10 year period.
Anyone saying anything else has far too little experience with batteries.
As the icing on that statement I would like to point out that if this was not the case then Tesla would never give the warranty they do.

Here are some images of the batteries I am working on currently.
Many packs from Prius+ (or V if you like) and one large pack from a VW GTe.

WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK!
While it is admirable that you collect batteries, that can hardly be representative for the huge amount of people who are dissatisfied with their PHEV
battery degradation, otherwise we would not be having all these forum threads about the topic and guys like Andy on Youtube posting 100's of Videos.
Tesla can not be compared here as in general use they might be cycled 1-2 times a week , while the PHEV mostly daily and in some cases held every night at 4.1V cell voltage.

As for my bike it does have a 200W 24V motor that originally ran on NiCads. This 8.33A at the rated voltage.
The battery pack consisted of 3 x 3.3Ah 7s batteries = 9.9Ah.
When new and fully charged the voltage would stay above 28.5V on the hill in question. That is 9.89A, less than 1C of the pack.
Assuming I actually had a motor that was capable of 500W, 2C would be 564W and more than enough to deliver and a whole order of magnitude less than what it is rated for, unlike EV batteries.
However the motor has only 200W rated and would have been running at 282W up that hill and maintained the speed at 20km/h. Bike has a speed limiter at 23km/h, it is something legal.
After a year held at full charge (LiPos are charged up to 4.2V it would not go up faster than 9km/h, so relatively speaking it used to 'fly' up those hills like a 'rocket'.

Yes LiPos are not EV batteries we all know that.
They are nevertheless all Li-Ion batteries.
It is common knowledge that all Li-Ion batteries suffer degradation when stored at full charge.
There is a lot of science, research and empirical evidence over the last 25 years that supports the claim that Li-Ion batteries are best stored at 3.7V
There is also some evidence suggesting that keeping batteries stored at temperatures near 0˚C is beneficial.
This MIGHT also have something to do why Australian users of the car are complaining more about battery degradation than from countries with colder climates.

Secondly, you have you calculations way off and it proves my point on experience of batteries.
The voltage of the cell drops under load, depending on the load the cell drops differently when the current increases. My estimates of the load on your cells are based on about 4 packs of hand built bicycle batteries and a dozen of motors with anything from custom controllers to Chinese ones.
A 200w motor is 200w continuously not peak, it could easily peak 600w or more if the controller allows it. Like
I said, it depends on your definition of "rocket", 200w is nothing. Just pedaling gives you 300-400w power.
Assuming you didn't, if you had a proper controller like a Cycle Analyst V3 you would see what I am talking about.
What does 3x 3.3Ah 7S mean? Is it a 7S pack or a 7S3P pack? Because the two are vastly different and effect the C rating dramatically. Irrespective of which, this experiences is not relatable to the cells in an EV pack.

My experience in batteries is not only gathering batteries and looking at them.
I build stuff from them and reverse engineer the BMS systems on the EV packs.
As I stated, EV batteries do not degrade much at all over a 10 year period because of their nature and the strict limits in the BMS.
RC batteries are like a dragster motor, they run hot and fast but die quickly.
The two are not comparable in any way shape or form.

Despite you being a self claimed 'know-it-all' expert about batteries, it looks like you are a bit out of your league here with the bike and electronic speed controllers.
This is taking the discussion too far off-topic so I have started a new thread in an appropriate section of the forum where we can further discuss you ignorance on the matter, without annoying other members who are interested about the LYNDQVIST METHOD.

continued here >>> http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4549&p=50566#p50566

 

[jaapv]

Anyway, the fact that it has been proven that these cars perform according to specification and expectation long term since 2013 and over many millions if not billions of combined kms puts another perspective on this whole matter.
To me it means that the whole bunch of self-appointed Internet "experts" have far less of an idea what they are doing than the designers at Mitsubishi do. (Putting it politely)
Which is not surprising, as Mitsubishi built their first electric vehicles in the 1960-ies and produced tens of thousands MiEVs before bringing the PHEV to the market. It is hardly their first effort.
I think that a company with the resources of a technology giant behind them - The conglomerate builds supertankers, aircraft and space modules, for instance- knows one or two things more than a bloke playing around with a Dongle and an App in his backyard and then hustling for Internet clicks.

 

[Pomst]

WHAT A LOAD OF CROCK!
While it is admirable that you collect batteries, that can hardly be representative for the huge amount of people who are dissatisfied with their PHEV
battery degradation, otherwise we would not be having all these forum threads about the topic and guys like Andy on Youtube posting 100's of Videos.
Tesla can not be compared here as in general use they might be cycled 1-2 times a week , while the PHEV mostly daily and in some cases held every night at 4.1V cell voltage.

As for my bike it does have a 200W 24V motor that originally ran on NiCads. This 8.33A at the rated voltage.
The battery pack consisted of 3 x 3.3Ah 7s batteries = 9.9Ah.
When new and fully charged the voltage would stay above 28.5V on the hill in question. That is 9.89A, less than 1C of the pack.
Assuming I actually had a motor that was capable of 500W, 2C would be 564W and more than enough to deliver and a whole order of magnitude less than what it is rated for, unlike EV batteries.
However the motor has only 200W rated and would have been running at 282W up that hill and maintained the speed at 20km/h. Bike has a speed limiter at 23km/h, it is something legal.
After a year held at full charge (LiPos are charged up to 4.2V it would not go up faster than 9km/h, so relatively speaking it used to 'fly' up those hills like a 'rocket'.

Yes LiPos are not EV batteries we all know that.
They are nevertheless all Li-Ion batteries.
It is common knowledge that all Li-Ion batteries suffer degradation when stored at full charge.
There is a lot of science, research and empirical evidence over the last 25 years that supports the claim that Li-Ion batteries are best stored at 3.7V
There is also some evidence suggesting that keeping batteries stored at temperatures near 0˚C is beneficial.
This MIGHT also have something to do why Australian users of the car are complaining more about battery degradation than from countries with colder climates.

Secondly, you have you calculations way off and it proves my point on experience of batteries.
The voltage of the cell drops under load, depending on the load the cell drops differently when the current increases. My estimates of the load on your cells are based on about 4 packs of hand built bicycle batteries and a dozen of motors with anything from custom controllers to Chinese ones.
A 200w motor is 200w continuously not peak, it could easily peak 600w or more if the controller allows it. Like
I said, it depends on your definition of "rocket", 200w is nothing. Just pedaling gives you 300-400w power.
Assuming you didn't, if you had a proper controller like a Cycle Analyst V3 you would see what I am talking about.
What does 3x 3.3Ah 7S mean? Is it a 7S pack or a 7S3P pack? Because the two are vastly different and effect the C rating dramatically. Irrespective of which, this experiences is not relatable to the cells in an EV pack.

My experience in batteries is not only gathering batteries and looking at them.
I build stuff from them and reverse engineer the BMS systems on the EV packs.
As I stated, EV batteries do not degrade much at all over a 10 year period because of their nature and the strict limits in the BMS.
RC batteries are like a dragster motor, they run hot and fast but die quickly.
The two are not comparable in any way shape or form.

Despite you being a self claimed 'know-it-all' expert about batteries, it looks like you are a bit out of your league here with the bike and electronic speed controllers.
This is taking the discussion too far off-topic so I have started a new thread in an appropriate section of the forum where we can further discuss you ignorance on the matter, without annoying other members who are interested about the LYNDQVIST METHOD.

continued here >>> http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4549&p=50566#p50566

Irrespective of what you think the facts are clear and it does not require a self claimed expert to see it.
If this was an issue with the cells then the Lindqvist Method would not work at all.
Dead or damaged cells are not capable of charging or discharging full.

This is not an issue based on chemistry.
Thus, this method will not damage the cells and is a viable solution to get back lost capacity albeigh the short term effect of the fix.

Thank you for the offer on reviewing your project but I am not interested as of right now.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Irrespective of what you think the facts are clear and it does not require a self claimed expert to see it.
If this was an issue with the cells then the Lindqvist Method would not work at all.
Dead or damaged cells are not capable of charging or discharging full.

This is not an issue based on chemistry.
Thus, this method will not damage the cells and is a viable solution to get back lost capacity albeigh the short term effect of the fix.

Thank you for the offer on reviewing your project but I am not interested as of right now.

So you're saying that a battery whose SOH is actually 80% could happily be made to run at 100% with no damage to the cells whatsoever? That issue is certainly based on chemistry and it would certainly damage to cells to be run like that.

 

[jaapv]

Mitsubishi dealers can perform a battery smoothing and BMU reset for you. Nothing new there.
The only difference is that Mr. Lindquist seems to have figured out a DIY method, which may or may not work long-term and may invalidate the warranty. I cannot see what all the fuss is about.

 

[MadTechNutter]

Anyway, the fact that it has been proven that these cars perform according to specification and expectation long term since 2013 and over many millions if not billions of combined kms puts another perspective on this whole matter.
To me it means that the whole bunch of self-appointed Internet "experts" have far less of an idea what they are doing than the designers at Mitsubishi do. (Putting it politely)
Which is not surprising, as Mitsubishi built their first electric vehicles in the 1960-ies and produced tens of thousands MiEVs before bringing the PHEV to the market. It is hardly their first effort.
I think that a company with the resources of a technology giant behind them - The conglomerate builds supertankers, aircraft and space modules, for instance- knows one or two things more than a bloke playing around with a Dongle and an App in his backyard and then hustling for Internet clicks.

Unfortunately all those "facts" become rather irrelevant when the battery of this expertly designed car after 60,000km has only 75% SoH left in it.
That is the ONLY fact that I can 100% verify here.
...wait that is not true, I can verify that the Lindqvist method does not work.
So those are the facts that I have to live with.

 

[jaapv]

Anyway, the fact that it has been proven that these cars perform according to specification and expectation long term since 2013 and over many millions if not billions of combined kms puts another perspective on this whole matter.
To me it means that the whole bunch of self-appointed Internet "experts" have far less of an idea what they are doing than the designers at Mitsubishi do. (Putting it politely)
Which is not surprising, as Mitsubishi built their first electric vehicles in the 1960-ies and produced tens of thousands MiEVs before bringing the PHEV to the market. It is hardly their first effort.
I think that a company with the resources of a technology giant behind them - The conglomerate builds supertankers, aircraft and space modules, for instance- knows one or two things more than a bloke playing around with a Dongle and an App in his backyard and then hustling for Internet clicks.

Unfortunately all those "facts" become rather irrelevant when the battery of this expertly designed car after 60,000km has only 75% SoH left in it.
That is the ONLY fact that I can 100% verify here.
...wait that is not true, I can verify that the Lindqvist method does not work.
So those are the facts that I have to live with.

If it really has, you are eligible -or will soon be- for a guaranty battery replacement. So I don't see the point in this whole discussion. Claim with Mitsubishi, employ a lawyer if needed. But get a proper battery condition report from Mitsubishi first.

 

[Pomst]

So you're saying that a battery whose SOH is actually 80% could happily be made to run at 100% with no damage to the cells whatsoever? That issue is certainly based on chemistry and it would certainly damage to cells to be run like that.

I'm saying the SOH the car is detecting is probably wrong and prematurely detects degradation when there is none.
If there was degradation no one would be able to get any capacity back bar replacing the entire pack.
A reset of data would not recover any SOH.

SoH should be a measurable static value and it should follow the packs actual health during the charge/discharge MMC allows but from what we are seeing their SOH algorithm is probably flawed.
This hypothetical flaw seems have a multitude of work arounds, one of which is the Lindqvist Method.

How can this be?
Well, there are two points.
* 2019 models could run at least 1000 quick charge cycles from empty to full (not 80%) before Any (1 to 5%) degradation should be detectable, extrapolated from the specs. This is about 35 000km.

* According to the specs the LEV40 cells hold for 5500 full cycles until 80% SoH, that's 247 500km with an average range of 45km per charge.
5500 is FULL cycles mind's you, from 3V to 4.1V. This is Never reached with EV packs, so the expected life until 80% SoH is far more the 5500 cycles, estimated I would say it's 3x that much.

If this is the case then the Lindqvist Method is totally safe and probably a good thing to do.

 

[jaapv]

Thank you for this clear explanation. I don't feel the necessity yet, but I'll have the battery software serviced by my trusted dealer when needed.
Let's hope, if it is indeed a bug in the 2019 model, that Mitsubishi is working on a firmware update.

 

[MadTechNutter]

* According to the specs the LEV40 cells hold for 5500 full cycles until 80% SoH, that's 247 500km with an average range of 45km per charge.
5500 is FULL cycles mind's you, from 3V to 4.1V. This is Never reached with EV packs, so the expected life until 80% SoH is far more the 5500 cycles, estimated I would say it's 3x that much.

Please provide proof for that claim of 5500 full cycles from the official website:
https://www.yuasabatteries.com/
and NOT some data sheet that somebody could had made up and is now circling on the internet, which I have seen already, possibly by somebody who is trying to sell used batteries.

So far I could only find on a technical report from Yuasa that a similar battery, the LEV50, degrades to 90% after only 700 100% DoD cycles, where the wording might be unclear if this is related to a discharge under a 4C condition.

In general the degradation using a discharge from 100% down to 0% in comparison to 100% down to 30% is not going to be very different.
Generally for Li-Ion batteries you will get roughly 30% more of these 70% DoD discharge cycles than the full 100% but overall degradation will be roughly the same and certainly not 3x as many cycles.
Please provide evidence of that claim for the LEV40 or any other battery for that matter from their official manufacturers websites.

 

[Pomst]

* According to the specs the LEV40 cells hold for 5500 full cycles until 80% SoH, that's 247 500km with an average range of 45km per charge.
5500 is FULL cycles mind's you, from 3V to 4.1V. This is Never reached with EV packs, so the expected life until 80% SoH is far more the 5500 cycles, estimated I would say it's 3x that much.

Please provide proof for that claim of 5500 full cycles from the official website:
https://www.yuasabatteries.com/
and NOT some data sheet that somebody could had made up and is now circling on the internet, which I have seen already, possibly by somebody who is trying to sell used batteries.

So far I could only find on a technical report from Yuasa that a similar battery, the LEV50, degrades to 90% after only 700 100% DoD cycles, where the wording might be unclear if this is related to a discharge under a 4C condition.

In general the degradation using a discharge from 100% down to 0% in comparison to 100% down to 30% is not going to be very different.
Generally for Li-Ion batteries you will get roughly 30% more of these 70% DoD discharge cycles than the full 100% but overall degradation will be roughly the same and certainly not 3x as many cycles.
Please provide evidence of that claim for the LEV40 or any other battery for that matter from their official manufacturers websites.

According to https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/pdf/Datasheet-LEV40-Module.pdf you can pick up the information from https://www.gs-yuasa.com/en/technic/archive.php.
If you are motivated enough to translate and search for it your self then you have what you are asking for.

I for one trust a company that puts their reputation and business at stake when providing that information.
If you don't trust them then that's a problem you need to work with and checking the technical archive is a method to do just that.

In regards to your other statements.
Generally lowering the full charge with 0.1V will double the cycle count.
Generally in combination with above, increasing the lowest discharge with 0.1V will double the cycle count.
With that in mind x3 is a good guesstimate. Mind you, I am not saying this is facts, it is subjective until proof is provided.

This is how all EV systems are able to provide the battery life they do.
They simply use the batteries optimally, it's not very complicated.

Edit:
Found you a very good proof of cycle count when a cell is managed correctly.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Powerwall. If that's not enough for you then I'm not sure anything will be.
I suspect you got your numbers from the first page on https://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries which has estimates that are only correct for that specific case they talked about in the tables, not for any other case of which their are many.
If you were to keep reading on that page you would have seen that it clearly says, and I quote.

Most Li-ions charge to 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life.

.

Also, where do you get your information from?

 

[luispcorreia]

Guys, I’ve been following this forum for more than a month now..

Bottom line: would you have bought the outlander Phev knowing what you know nowadays?

If yes, then just enjoy the thing! If not, work together to solve the thing that makes you uncomfortable with it.

 

[michalsarna]

Thank you for this clear explanation. I don't feel the necessity yet, but I'll have the battery software serviced by my trusted dealer when needed.
Let's hope, if it is indeed a bug in the 2019 model, that Mitsubishi is working on a firmware update.

Hopefully they will be allowed to do so.

 

[jaapv]

Who would forbid them ? :?:

 

[michalsarna]

@michalsarna,
do you have the same charger as mine in the image above?

Nope.