Fuel economy at highway speed phev vs ice model

[nrayanov]

Looks like 180 km/h is max speed.

Really good video of the new PHEV performance:
https://youtu.be/O5o0EAujvdc

Awesome video, very helpful! Thank you for posting!

 

[LowOnCash]

Hello All - Great thread on the Outlander - The primary reason the RAV 4 Prime has better mileage than the Outlander PHEV is their differences in transmissions. The RAV 4 is equipped with a e-CVT variable transmission which keeps the engine spun up so it remains in optimum torque and rpm power band regardless of the cars speed which improves economy.

In retrospect - The Outlander engine operates using a single ratio drive system. In a way the engine stuck in 6th or high gear all the time which is the reason the engine can only engage at speeds of 40 mph and above, otherwise the engine would be lugging at lower than 40 mph speeds if engaged. Since the Outlander’s engine uses this fixed ratio, it provides no help to economy below 40 mph since it has to run 100% electric power in hybrid mode and only use the engines generator to maintain lower speeds.

Even when the engine kicks in at 40 mph, the engines rpm is still below the engines power curve and therefore still not efficient at 40-50 mph. This kick-in 40 mph is like putting a standard transmission in high gear when you need to be in 3rd or 4th. Unlike the RAV4 e-CVT where it keeps the engine in its power band at all speeds using lower ratios, not until the Outlander reaches highway speeds does the little 2.4 engine get happy.

As the Outlander’s speed reaches 60-80 mph, the engine begins to reach its power band to make good power and improved economy. While the Outlander 2.4 develops 131 hp, most owners will never see this power since it would requires speeds of around 100 mph or over.

On the positive side of things - reduced hybrid range is not a major issue for the Outlander since it offers 40-60 miles on battery, which is sufficient for owners like myself and many others who mostly drive in an EV mode. In addition, the RAV4 hybrid MPG is generally in the 30's to low 40's so no one is going broke filling up the Outlander's small tank every month or so. Most important, when comparing the Outlander to the RAV4 interior, exterior, handling, 4WD, and overall feel when driving, the RAV 4 is majorly outclassed by the Outlander in ever respect, they are worlds apart in build quality and interior detail.

Regards- Mike

 

[Ecological]

Good day all,
I'm new here and posting my first post. I have searched all through the tech section and could not find the answer so here it goes. I am getting a 2023 Outlander PHEV in the first week of January. I can tell the vast majority of users here really like their Outlanders.

When comparing the highway fuel economy between the ICE version of the Outlander and the PHEV version, I was surprised to see the ICE version was more efficient. I was trained as an Engineer in 1990 but became a pilot and have not used my engineering degree since graduation. So I understand some physics but am by no means current.
It's my understanding that air resistance and therefore body style is the main determining factor for how much energy is needed to keep the can going at highway speed. Both versions of those Outlanders have the same body style and chassis. Both have the same engine except the ICE version has a slightly higher compression ratio and operates on the conventional Otto cycle. The PHEV operates on the more efficient Atkinson cycle. Sure the PHEV is heavier but with the Atkinson cycle and the direct drive to the front wheels in parallel mode without a transmission should be more efficient. The only thing I can think of is the efficiency losses as you generate electricity for the batteries and the efficiency losses as you use the energy put back in the batteries as the engine cycles on and off. 2023 Outlander ICE gets 7.9 litres per 100km, PHEV gets 8.7.
Interesting the Toyota RAV 4 PHEV gets better highway fuel economy than the ICE version and regular Hybrid is better than both. Rav 4 PHEV 6.4 l/100km, Rav 4 Hybrid 6.3, Rav 4 ICE 6.9. All three Rav4s have the same engine and they all have transmissions. How can the Rav4s with batteries and motors and extra weight get better fuel economy than the ICE but the Outlander can't?
So is the testing cycle forcing the Outlander in series mode sometimes? To my knowledge, Canada uses the same cycle as the USA EPA uses.

For real life, I really only care about steady 105 kmh or 115 kmh fuel economy. The city numbers don't matter to me because I will be using the battery and electric motors then. Does Toyota have it right with their mechanical set up or does Mitsubishi have it right? Again, I would think the Mitsubishi set up should do better. I initially had put my name on a list for a Rav 4 as its ev range is 68 km. It's 58 km round trip for us to go to town for errands. Before 2023, the Outlander didn't have the ev range we needed. After being on the Rav4 list for 15 months and them being told I would have to wait at least 6 more months, I put myself on the wait list for the 2023 Outlander with the 20 kwh battery and 61km ev range. It's a 70 to 80 kmh road to town so I expect to get much more range than the 61 advertised.

We mostly stay local but we also do some highway trips so I am still interested in highway fuel economy. The Rav 4 gets better mileage but I don't know how long I would have to wait. I'm currently driving an ICE car that gets 7.1 highway.

Anyone have real world highway fuel numbers on the 2023 Outlander PHEV (it has a larger body and chassis)?

Andrew

Dear Andrew...In the UK in the summer, we get about 22kpl driving at 72.4kph. At 112kph, I only get 7.84kpl. Same distance, but more energy as the greater the speed, the more energy it will require.

 

[Phev2016]

Dear Andrew...In the UK in the summer, we get about 22kpl driving at 72.4kph. At 112kph, I only get 7.84kpl. Same distance, but more energy as the greater the speed, the more energy it will require.

On 150 mile motorway journeys at mostly 70mph in my 2016 model I get about 38 miles per gallon in summer which is 13km/l (and about 36/37 mpg when raining in winter). 7.7km/l is around 22mpg and seems very low - I get around 25mpg when towing a caravan at 55-60mph.

 

[greendwarf]

On 150 mile motorway journeys at mostly 70mph in my 2016 model I get about 38 miles per gallon in summer which is 13km/l (and about 36/37 mpg when raining in winter). 7.7km/l is around 22mpg and seems very low - I get around 25mpg when towing a caravan at 55-60mph.

I agree, slamming mine down the French autoroutes under cruise control for hours at a time at 85mph (with a roof box but no passengers!) a few years back, I was consistently getting 27mph

 

[RobertGrover]

Hello All - Great thread on the Outlander - The primary reason the RAV 4 Prime has better mileage than the Outlander PHEV is their differences in transmissions. The RAV 4 is equipped with a e-CVT variable transmission which keeps the engine spun up so it remains in optimum torque and rpm power band regardless of the cars speed which improves economy.

In retrospect - The Outlander engine operates using a single ratio drive system. In a way the engine stuck in 6th or high gear all the time which is the reason the engine can only engage at speeds of 40 mph and above, otherwise the engine would be lugging at lower than 40 mph speeds if engaged. Since the Outlander’s engine uses this fixed ratio, it provides no help to economy below 40 mph since it has to run 100% electric power in hybrid mode and only use the engines generator to maintain lower speeds.

Even when the engine kicks in at 40 mph, the engines rpm is still below the engines power curve and therefore still not efficient at 40-50 mph. This kick-in 40 mph is like putting a standard transmission in high gear when you need to be in 3rd or 4th. Unlike the RAV4 e-CVT where it keeps the engine in its power band at all speeds using lower ratios, not until the Outlander reaches highway speeds does the little 2.4 engine get happy.

As the Outlander’s speed reaches 60-80 mph, the engine begins to reach its power band to make good power and improved economy. While the Outlander 2.4 develops 131 hp, most owners will never see this power since it would requires speeds of around 100 mph or over.

On the positive side of things - reduced hybrid range is not a major issue for the Outlander since it offers 40-60 miles on battery, which is sufficient for owners like myself and many others who mostly drive in an EV mode. In addition, the RAV4 hybrid MPG is generally in the 30's to low 40's so no one is going broke filling up the Outlander's small tank every month or so. Most important, when comparing the Outlander to the RAV4 interior, exterior, handling, 4WD, and overall feel when driving, the RAV 4 is majorly outclassed by the Outlander in ever respect, they are worlds apart in build quality and interior detail.

Regards- Mike

From what I understand when Nissan joined Mitsubishi Motors they looked at the Mits PHEV technology and chose not to use it as it could not improve it enough to meet today’s standards. Like Mits is committed to their old technology.

 

[RobertGrover]

From what I understand when Nissan joined Mitsubishi Motors they looked at the Mits PHEV technology and chose not to use it as it could not improve it enough to meet today’s standards. Like Mits is committed to their old technology.

And the RAV Prime has a stick with manual linkage to their transmission. Totally archaic compared to my Mits phev. (2020 compared)

 

[Woon Chung]

For real life, I really only care about steady 105 kmh or 115 kmh fuel economy. The city numbers don't matter to me because I will be using the battery and electric motors then. Does Toyota have it right with their mechanical set up or does Mitsubishi have it right? Again, I would think the Mitsubishi set up should do better. I initially had put my name on a list for a Rav 4 as its ev range is 68 km. It's 58 km round trip for us to go to town for errands. Before 2023, the Outlander didn't have the ev range we needed. After being on the Rav4 list for 15 months and them being told I would have to wait at least 6 more months, I put myself on the wait list for the 2023 Outlander with the 20 kwh battery and 61km ev range. It's a 70 to 80 kmh road to town so I expect to get much more range than the 61 advertised.

We mostly stay local but we also do some highway trips so I am still interested in highway fuel economy. The Rav 4 gets better mileage but I don't know how long I would have to wait. I'm currently driving an ICE car that gets 7.1 highway.

Anyone have real world highway fuel numbers on the 2023 Outlander PHEV (it has a larger body and chassis)?

Andrew

I am new, too. I mean new to this forum and new to Outlander PHEV.

I have read all postings below and I would like to add what I have learned about PHEV in the meantime.

I believe that you already know what is Hybrid Engine works. It is prior step to BEV 100% car. Before 1977, there were Hybrid car but actual current type of hybrid is Prius created by Toyota . Not mentioning the battery technology, Toyota has best Hybrid Engine Technology. After Toyota made a big sensation in Hybrid world of the car, other car manufacturer tried to follow up the needs of Hybrid car market.

Around late years of 2000, China and ford released PHEV. And Tesla released Full EV to the world. This challenge was possible by the advanced technology of Battery(not merely by motor). The reason why hybrid has been invented is the lack of Battery tech in the beginning. Toyota was not capable to produce the battery for full EV. So they started with hybrid for the purpose of fuel economy only.

Still Toyota believes that Hybrid is the solution of the fuel efficiency for the time being. Still they do not own the battery technology, yet.

After Tesla, still the battery charging Hub and Battery technology itself is unsolved issue. This condition push car manufacturers using small battery concept to minimize the battery issue and lower the cost of the car, and it leads the market of PHEV. Because small battery is not so expensive than full EV Battery and at the same time, charging can be done at home in PHEV. Plus no worry of extended distance journey since it can run unlimited miles by refueling gas which can be found in anywhere in the world.

Lots of car manufacturer produced PHEV above their existing model by simply changing from ICE to Hybrid Engine and remove tire space and install small size of Battery, also reduce gas tank size. This process do not required huge R&D cost of new EV cars, but fits to the market needs.

As the result, fuel efficiency can not get out of original model of PHEV. Every ICE car has their own fuel efficiency, by its own design. Own design means that how the car has been design for in the beginning stage. Is it compact car, midsize, Off Road sturdy 4X4, easy city all wheel drive, Luxury Sedan, Super sports car?, you name it. Not all cars have PHEV model, but PHEV model is not far out of their original design concept.

Rav4 and Outlander is in different sales category. Once you choose Rav4, you may miss the Outlander merits. If you chose Outlander, you will miss Rav4 merits. You cannot compare 2 different purpose and 2 different concept car by fuel efficiency only. Rav4 has better Hybrid Engine than Mitsubishi PHEV. Mitsubishi Hybrid engine is not effective as much as Toyota Hybrid Engine. That's why regular ICE engine has better fuel efficiency than outlander PHEV, according to the data sheet. There are so many subsidiary reasons of Mitsubishi PHEV's lower fuel efficiency, but the main reason is Mitsubishi Hybrid is not good as Toyota Hybrid. This can be a reason there is no pure Hybrid car in Mitsubishi Outlander.

Highlander VS Outlander. It is not comparable. Highlander is true off road available but outlander is so and so. Highlander is way expensive but there is mania group. Outlander is cheap car and for general use of SUV, just bigger than Rav4. Highlander is easy to repair and lots of parts, while Outlander is not.

Summarize it. We cannot compare each different cars with Fuel Efficiency. This kind of comparing is good for ICE only car under similar category of the cars. When battery applied to cars, Fuel efficiency means nothing. Only the price and options with battery technology matters, because battery has extremely high efficiency . When it goes to PHEV and HEV, compare the original design of the car without battery. In this category, fuel efficiency is the least to be considered.

ICE cars, HEV, PHEV, BEV are existing in totally different concept. If you misjudge by considering all cars are transportation only, you will be suffered for wrong category car to your needs.

If you are located in near Charging Hub, and your daily journey is regular, and car is only for transportation purpose, consider BEV. There are quite good cars out there. Highest fuel efficiency and most advanced IT technology. Some EV can be used for emergency power source by purchasing $99 adapter with plug. https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Compatible-Vehicle-Electric-Discharger/dp/B0CJLKTRQW. Battery will support home 4 to 8 days with car battery.

If you are willing to pay high cost of big battery Hybrid Engine, but you still need car with original functions like offroad, irregular journey, country side traveling, hobby activity, PHEV will hep you to do so, and can save money a little bit while driving short city driving. Extra expensive cost of internal inverter can be use for Power back up to. You have to pay $6,000 to $10,000 for extra option.

If you are really care about fuel efficiency and don't want to spend extra money for Big battery, HEV will be your choice. But the car itself has its own category, your choice will be in that car category.

There are so different cars with big difference of Price and Purpose, I prefer to write down the impotence of my needs. If I can get the most of the car of my needs, a little bit of expensive car or a little low fuel efficiency will not matter in the long term use of the car.

Good luck to you all, who read this to the end.