First test of 19,5 kWh battery in PHEV

[PaulFromDe]

A replacement battery would be an interesting product - in 8 years, when warranty ends.
:idea: Actually I'm very interested in an extension battery: :idea:
There is a huge amount of unused space under the trunk cover.
If you look under the car, you see the silencer at one side - and the other side is almost empty.
By moving the 12V-battery to another place there would be even more usable space.
The connector of the onboard charger or the heater at the rear motor could be used to connect a HV junction box.
There we could connect another 80-cell Li-Ion-battery.
Another 12 kWh, or even 19,5 kWh? That would give a range of about 136 km (85 miles).
I think, there must be a (strong) relay, and the extension battery must only be connected in the right state of the car (while driving).
Otherwise the on-board battery management unit would think of the additional current as a failure.
The second battery needs its own BMS for balancing and protection. Also, another charger is needed.
I think it is okay, if quick charging and recuperation would only work with the first battery.

@vtechtuning:
Please invent an extension battery for the Outlander!
I'm sure you could do that.
I'm using your PHEV-box, and it works fine!

Paul

 

[crustovich]

I second the request for a second battery pack!

 

[user 816]

A replacement battery would be an interesting product - in 8 years, when warranty ends.
:idea: Actually I'm very interested in an extension battery: :idea:
There is a huge amount of unused space under the trunk cover.
If you look under the car, you see the silencer at one side - and the other side is almost empty.
By moving the 12V-battery to another place there would be even more usable space.
The connector of the onboard charger or the heater at the rear motor could be used to connect a HV junction box.
There we could connect another 80-cell Li-Ion-battery.
Another 12 kWh, or even 19,5 kWh? That would give a range of about 136 km (85 miles).
I think, there must be a (strong) relay, and the extension battery must only be connected in the right state of the car (while driving).
Otherwise the on-board battery management unit would think of the additional current as a failure.
The second battery needs its own BMS for balancing and protection. Also, another charger is needed.
I think it is okay, if quick charging and recuperation would only work with the first battery.

@vtechtuning:
Please invent an extension battery for the Outlander!
I'm sure you could do that.
I'm using your PHEV-box, and it works fine!

Paul

That space under the rear annoys me, they said this generation of Outlander was designed with consideration for the PHEV model from the beginning, yet there is all that wasted space. The previous Outlander had a spare wheel under the rear, they could have used the space for that as an option, or an extra battery. You can see the installation of the auxiliary battery in the back was an afterthought by the design. If they had fitted it at the front (I think they could make room) then the whole boot floor could have been considerably lower and the boot even in PHEV's would be massive, or a spacesaver fitted under another boot false floor...

 

[elm70]

A replacement battery would be an interesting product - in 8 years, when warranty ends.
:idea: Actually I'm very interested in an extension battery: :idea:
There is a huge amount of unused space under the trunk cover.
If you look under the car, you see the silencer at one side - and the other side is almost empty.
By moving the 12V-battery to another place there would be even more usable space.
The connector of the onboard charger or the heater at the rear motor could be used to connect a HV junction box.
There we could connect another 80-cell Li-Ion-battery.
Another 12 kWh, or even 19,5 kWh? That would give a range of about 136 km (85 miles).
I think, there must be a (strong) relay, and the extension battery must only be connected in the right state of the car (while driving).
Otherwise the on-board battery management unit would think of the additional current as a failure.
The second battery needs its own BMS for balancing and protection. Also, another charger is needed.
I think it is okay, if quick charging and recuperation would only work with the first battery.

@vtechtuning:
Please invent an extension battery for the Outlander!
I'm sure you could do that.
I'm using your PHEV-box, and it works fine!

Paul

I think you have a too optimistic view about 2nd battery

I think it can be added 1 or 2kwh battery nothing more then this

About BMS ... I think this pack definitely need to have e relay for be disengaged from main battery in case of "needs"
There is no need for special charger for it .. not really a BMS ... unless we consider BMS the control of the relay

Still there is one issue which is hard to control: temperature control of the added battery pack.

Main battery of the car has its own cooling system .. AC start in case of need in summer even when car is parked

So .. main issue is on hot summer day leaving the car in the sun, the car can go over 50/60 deg inside .. and over 60deg Lithium battery start to suffer.

Still an easy solution would be to make the pack removable and avoid to use it on summer.

About the BMS system for the 2nd pack ... I would design something very simple:
- Over voltage protection: Each cell need to have its own voltage check, and if 1st level of over voltage is detected then a little load local to the single cell should be used for discharge the cell. If a 2nd higher voltage level is reached ... then the additional battery pack need to be disconnected
- Under voltage protection .. (this should never happen actually) .. so it may be avoided ... but ... having a voltage detection point for each cell ... if voltage is too low for only on cell ... then 2nd battery pack should be disconnected .. and an "alarm" should be sent
- Charging ... 2nd battery can be charged while main battery is charged ... by just having this battery in parallel to the main one. Nothing special to be added here.
- BMS ... mainly the additional BMS is the controller of the switch/relay between the two batteries ... the relay should be open when: total voltage of the battery pack and additional battery has a difference above x Volts (x to be defined .. possible 1 or 2volt difference is acceptable .. above not) .. the load for discharge high voltage cell can be local to each cell (like a single cell protection for each cell) ... also will be nice to have bluetooth support for monitor the status of the relay and each single cell via a simple application

It may sounds a lot of words .. but it is something simple and cheap to achieve ... still it may add 50/100 USD to the cost of this 2nd battery pack

About the battery pack .. I see two option:
- Use decent quality Hobby RC battery pack .. like a 5.2mAh 4S 10C .. light pack from hobby king (this cost around 40USD, 20 will be needed .. for a total cost of 800USD)
- Use cheap Soshine 26650 5500mAh .. 4pcs cost 27USD .. so the pack will be costing around 540USD .. these should have in theory already protection for overcharge and overdischarge .. so in theory they cold be connected in parallel without much additional BMS .. still have a BMS for control the relay is not a bad idea

Both option will deliver 1.5kwh .. so ...the gain will be around 12% (from 50km to 56km range)
Added weight is ~8kg ... I think this can be hosted on the space under the main cover of the trunk, where is normally located the charger (which in my case is always at home and never in the car)

For me ... the first thing .. is find which is the ideal point to get access to the 300v battery pack ... so to gain also the automatic charging feature of it.

Yes ... if vtech can offer such a service for ~1000USD .. for adding ~1.5kwh ... in a well packed designed way .. it may have "market"

But ... it is a nice of a nice ... so I guess there is no business for vtech to follow it

I guess .. he may get ready for replace old battery pack, and get an upgraded one, when the 8y old pack is going out of warranty

I expect this to be a 6000USD service .. with almost no R&D ... just replace the old battery with some newer and more energy dense .. like the 19Kwh battery pack that he may be testing on his car

In absence of vtech .. it will be nice to share our know how .. mainly about how to get access in a safe and easy way to the main battery pack

 

[greendwarf]

A replacement battery would be an interesting product - in 8 years, when warranty ends.
:idea: Actually I'm very interested in an extension battery: :idea:

Paul

They already have these available for the Prius - main sales (if I remember correctly) in US - so when the PHEV finally gets launched they may come on the market but, as noted, the additional charge is fairly modest.

 

[PaulFromDe]

Still there is one issue which is hard to control: temperature control of the added battery pack.
Main battery of the car has its own cooling system .. AC start in case of need in summer even when car is parked

I would simply disconect the battery pack, if the temperature rises to much.
And: the added battery pack has to deliver only a part of the current, could be limited by the new BMS. So maybe even in summer it will not really need cooling.

For me ... the first thing .. is find which is the ideal point to get access to the 300v battery pack ... so to gain also the automatic charging feature of it.

I think this is here at the rear motor:

http://abload.de/image.php?img=accesstohvikbr8.jpg
There are free contacts. If the car has an electric heater (this has not), it is connected here. In this case a junction box would be needed. The cable on the picture comes from the charger. Both are here directly (via a fuse) connected to the drive battery relay.

.. it will be nice to share our know how .. mainly about how to get access in a safe and easy way to the main battery pack

Yes, thats what we should do!

If the battery would be expanded by i.e. 10% or 20%, is it possible to tell this to the car's BMS (via M.U.T III programming?) to get a correct range gauge?

Paul

 

[elm70]

Nice picture

So this is the charging port ... question is in which condition this port is "connected" to the battery ?

The charger works only when the car is plugged "IN" ... Does this line see the battery when the car is 'active" in drive mode ?

Possibly when the car is "off" and not charging either ... there should be no voltage in this port .. so in case .. the additional battery should be disconnected too in this situation .. and it may be something hard to achieve if there is any check over this power line

Some reverse engineering is needed for figure it out the best place for add a battery in parallel.

Where did you got this picture ?
Somewhere else there is an open discussion about modding the PHEV ?

 

[PaulFromDe]

First to anyone who sees this information, I forgot to mention:

THIS IS DANGEROUS. THERE ARE 300V DC.
ONLY OPEN THIS COVER IF YOU ARE REALLY KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING

Nice picture

So this is the charging port ... question is in which condition this port is "connected" to the battery ?

There is not only the charger and the heater connected, but also the rear motor. From this box there goes a connection straight to the drive battery. There is just another fuse (350A) and a "main contactor" (relay) in between.
I think the main contactor is switched on if the car is in "ready" mode. There is also a "charging contactor" in parallel, when charging probably this will be active.

Possibly when the car is "off" and not charging either ... there should be no voltage in this port .. so in case .. the additional battery should be disconnected too in this situation .. and it may be something hard to achieve if there is any check over this power line

Threre will be some sensors for voltage and current. The only way not to confuse the car will be, to connect the additional battery only in an active mode. If some current flows (i.e. in D position), a little amount of additional current flowing in or out of the battery will not be noticed, I hope.

Some reverse engineering is needed for figure it out the best place for add a battery in parallel.

Where did you got this picture ?
Somewhere else there is an open discussion about modding the PHEV ?

No, I don't know about that. My impression is, here are the most professional experts. Thats the reason I wrote this here.
I made the picture in my own car.
(if anybody wants to look in this box yourself - PLEASE remove the service plug of the main battery before)

 

[HHL]

It is interesting, while we're talking about an increased battery capacity for the Outlander, looking at the list at what is available in the market now, the PHEV is still right up there as far as range goes for plug-ins.
For the time being, I think extra weight would be the killer if there is any meaningful increase over the 12kWh currently installed.


evobsession.com/plug-hybrid-electric-cars-for-sale-2017-usa-plug-hybrid-electric-cars-list/

 

[BlixtGordon]

Really interesting discussion but the easiest way to get more range should be to swap to better cells in the main battery - like vtechtuning did.
Has any one else opend HV-battery and know the actual dimensions of the LEV40 modules?
...and is willing to share the exact height, width and length of the modules??

 

[elm70]

Really interesting discussion but the easiest way to get more range should be to swap to better cells in the main battery - like vtechtuning did.
Has any one else opend HV-battery and know the actual dimensions of the LEV40 modules?
...and is willing to share the exact height, width and length of the modules??

This is extremely expensive

Who will take over the old battery that has a value in excess of 10k USD ?

Also buy 19kwh battery is definitely 10 times more expensive then buy an additional 2kwh battery which will bring already an advantage about range

With 8y warranty (still will be interesting if this will really work on battery) ... I guess nobody is going to "trash" on board batteries

The specs of the battery as far as I know are following: http://lithiumenergy.jp/en/products/
LEV50 is what is currently available ... guess LEV40 has been custom produced for mitsubishi only

 

[elm70]

First to anyone who sees this information, I forgot to mention:

THIS IS DANGEROUS. THERE ARE 300V DC.
ONLY OPEN THIS COVER IF YOU ARE REALLY KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING

...

Where did you got this picture ?
Somewhere else there is an open discussion about modding the PHEV ?

No, I don't know about that. My impression is, here are the most professional experts. Thats the reason I wrote this here.
I made the picture in my own car.
(if anybody wants to look in this box yourself - PLEASE remove the service plug of the main battery before)

100% agree on the warning ... this 300DC also scare me a lot ... if I'm going to check anything in my PHEV I will first buy suitable gloves for protect me by any accidental "touch"

Anyhow ... I had some further "thinking" about the additional/parallel battery pack.

The battery to be used need to be "similar" to the one in the car .. else there could be strange "parallel" behaviour.

For instance the Soshine 5500mAh, may not be suitable, since these have max 7/8A discharge, and possibly 5A or less recharge ... but ... for conclusive finding it is needed some "reserch/testing"

What should be avoided is to put battery that have better performance ... let me explain:
If we put two battery in parallel (battery A and Battery B) .. and we a have a common load ... we will have:
Load = voltage drop from "idle" battery status + current from A + current from B
current from each battery is a function of the internal resistance of the battery
If we put an additional small battery pack in parallel .. but with very low internal resistance .. this pack may have the risk to provide all the 60kw demanded by the car at max load .. and for a small pack this can be a "killer"
As consequence .. this pack not only will have to provide most of the juice to the eMotor, but as soon as the load is zero or even worst when re-charge will kick in ... they will also get a burst of recharge, both from regen and as well from the battery pack from the car that sit in parallel

So ... the current distribution under load .. is something to be monitored
As well .. the current to rebalance the pack in parallel need to be controller
And the regen brake should be analysed too

So .. possible some "weaker" battery should be a better option .. since this will not have mayor contribution on providing the current on heavy load ... and they will mainly balancing back the pack the car battery when the load decrease. Only relative issue is that during regen ... the main car battery may get an extra burst of current due to regen and eventually the additional pack (but this possibly is limited if not even zero)

So .. definitely it is needed to have a way to check the current flowing in and out to this additional battery pack .. and potentially be able to "modulate" it ..

For instance .. using the cheap Soshine cells .. it would require to have a module capable to limit the deliver current to 6Amp .. and the charging current to possible 3Amp

Good thing is that these are not massive currents ... but handle 300V may still have some "costs"

As said .. an 1.5kwh made with Soshine cells cost 540 USD .. and it add only 8kg of mass .. not bad for 1.5kwh additional energy.

 

[PaulFromDe]

What should be avoided is to put battery that have better performance ...

I agree to that! The maximum power taken from the regular battery (at full throttle) is 60 kW, which means 200 A at 300 V.
The fuse at the heater port - when not changed - limits the current to 40 A = 12 kW, 20% of the maximum load.
Even when using a bigger or low impedance extension battery: I would limit the current here. The easiest is a resistor (with heatsink) of 0.2 Ohm or so. (also for heating the car )
With some electronics this can be done better.

vtechtuning increased the usable electric power from 60 kW to 70 kw by software reconfiguration, as I remember (with M.U.T. III or patching?).
It is only limited to protect the main battery - with an extension battery i.e. 70 kW would be possible without overloading it...

BTW: some pictures of the Outlander battery:https://www.photovoltaikforum.com/s...-life-akkus-fuer-ongrid-t114964.html#p1443326

 

[elm70]

Nice picture this one: https://www.photovoltaikforum.com/download/file.php?id=62949&mode=view

I see Paul, you are committed to use the heater port .. which in my case I expect to be already used .. so I will need sort of Y cabling there

I had some more thinking ... I'm trying to figure it out the most simple and cheaper way to add an extra battery .. these Soshine 26650 are looking to me the cheapest LiPo on the market (price per capacity) ... they already have protection circuit .. so they cant be over charged, nor over discharge ... not abused with extra current flowing over 7A ... 7A limit (5 should be consider more realistic) is maybe a bit a limitation .. since it means these battery can be fully used only in a 45min constant "usage" .. (from full charge to 25% SOC as the PHEV use the batteries) ... so ... it will not really bring much value used on EV mode at 120km/h

Other limitation is that these are stated to last 1000cycles .. so it is possibly 3 years life time .. so 600 USD investment for something that last 3 years is hard to justify .. since 10 / 15% extra EV range will possibly not bring such gain on fuel saving.

Anyhow .. speaking of the most simple approach for me it will be the following:

Only electronic ... is to make a "switch" that force the external battery to be in parallel via the heater port.
Definitely this switch must be some sort of High Voltage MOSFET .. control board should be power by the 12V Lead Acid Battery (this could consume something like couple of mA .. so will not load the 12V line nor cause problem to Lead Acid battery)
On top of a switch, it is needed a current sensor (100A or a 50A sensor will do the job, in theory 10A sensor is enough, but bigger is better) that check the flow in and out from the additional battery
Then it is needed 2 voltage sensors, for check the voltage before and after the switch ... or better .... check the voltage at the heater plug (the car battery .. and check the voltage of the added car pack. Clearly when the switch is on, the two voltage will be identical .. but ... then the current sensor will inform if the flow in or out form the added batter is inside the acceptable range.
On top .. it is needed a little "processor" .. and Arduino nano board for 2 USD will do the job. .. Plus a bluetooth module (5 USD) for be able to monitor what is going on

So .. logic to implement it is quite simple:
Switch should be on when the delta voltage sense is inside X volt ( how much has to be defined ... possible configurable via bluetooth) .. starting from 1 or 2 volt .. and check if this can be extended
When switch is on ... then current flow need to be monitored .... if this exceed 5A out or 2A (5A discharge from extra battery, or 2A recharge) .. then switch need to be open .. and delta voltage should be taking place.

Optionally ... a temperature sensor can be added for monitor the temperature of the added battery pack .. and if it is getting too hot .. it should be disconnected

About balancing the external battery pack ... there is no risk to overcharge or over discharge the pack , since each cell has its own protective PCB ... still for get bet efficiency .. this pack need to be balanced ... for do this ... I would go for the cheapest solution ... make 6S balancing plug (14 plugs will be needed) ... and then there are cheap balancing module that can be connected for balance the 6 cells at time .. so it will be some time consuming job to do it manually .. but it is costing less then 10 USD ... once balanced the cell .. they should be balanced for quite a while

So ... it sounds "feasible"

Main concerns are:
600 USD investment is not so little for make an "experiment"
1000cycle life of these "cheap" battery .. so it may be a short life
Playing with 300V DC ... is very dangerous ..

On the positive side ... in theory if something goes wrong, the worst that can happen it is that 40A fuse need to be replaced
But ... if something goes really bad .. this added battery pack can explode or go on fire

This is my view ... and ... for what I'm "picturing" here .. it is a dead end .. since risk and cost are too high for the gain

 

[PaulFromDe]

Sorry, I had to work some days...

...
Main concerns are:
600 USD investment is not so little for make an "experiment"
...
This is my view ... and ... for what I'm "picturing" here .. it is a dead end .. since risk and cost are too high for the gain

Another issue not mentioned yet is the weight. But the Outlander is not so weak, and if you think about th 75 kg permissible load at the towbar, without a trailer the Outlander could also carry a 75 kg battery...

For me, the amount of added range must be 50% or more (= 6 kWh). A smaller battery pack would be nice to find out what is possible. But to be really useful and to justify the effort, it must be bigger.
(Yesterday the ICE started 1 km before reaching home, after 40 km pure electrically through the snow - another 10% would have been enough then... :roll: ).

I will start such a project, when I get a lot of cheap battery cells (maybe of a crashed car). Then the size of the pack will depend on what is available (and fits into the car).
Or maybe some day an extension pack (cells, bms, cables, instruction manual. car-software-modification) of a tuning company is available...

Any more comments or suggestions from the other readers?

 

[AndyInOz]

Yes, don't fit them to the car, put them in a trailer instead.

Lugging that extra weight around all the time will decrease the performance of the car.

Having an extra battery on a trailer for occasional need is a much more flexible solution.

 

[HHL]

Yes, don't fit them to the car, put them in a trailer instead.

Lugging that extra weight around all the time will decrease the performance of the car.

Having an extra battery on a trailer for occasional need is a much more flexible solution.

Or a 20l Jerry can full of petrol on the roof....... :lol:

 

[pabbie]

This is a really interesting discussion, specially as time goes by and the batteries the car came with start to age. Would be amazing if you could upgrade it with a larger capacity battery then. Although, I wouldn't do the actual swap myself. Seems dangerous

 

[StevieB]

Probably worth pointing out that drive batteries are always fitted central, not only for weight distribution, but also to mitigate any serious damage from a rear-end shunt.

To my knowledge, most LI-ION batteries are placed centrally - the Passat GTE for example, the fuel tank is put under the rear boot with the batteries taking it's place instead in a more central location.

Any idea of putting additional batteries under the boot floor brings this extra risk, along with the previously mentioned risk of over-heating. Mitsubishi got the location spot on for the batteries - central and low for safety and handling. Also I believe service wise, when on a ramp, an experienced mechanic can get to the pack and drop them fairly quickly, with little else to remove to do it.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Don't forget that the density is improving. Renault managed to almost double the capacity of their traction battery (from 22kWh to 41kWh) without changing the physical size after 4 years.