False Advertising - Class Action Lawsuit

[craze1234]

I am prepared to be shouted down by the fan club but I really feel like I have been sold a bill of goods with this vehicle. It is advertised as a car that can be driven on electric for 20 miles and THEN driven on gas. If you live in a northern climate, this is just not the case. If I lived in Florida, I would love this car. I love it in the summer.

In New York state, this is a gas car for 6 months of the year. It is just now occasionally starting to run on battery in the first five minutes of driving. It starts the engine with no cabin heating turned on (the system off completely), the EV button set before moving and in ECO mode. I know this is a frustration for many because I see it on this forum. This is just not right. I bought this car for the savings through electricity vs. gas and for the environmental benefit. I am greatly disappointed by how much I have unnecessarily polluted with this car and I am very disappointed by how much money I am now wasting from paying for gas vs electricity I generate from solar panels.

I think that enough people have this issue that we should hold Mitsubishi accountable. Am I crazy that all they would need to do if they are really concerned about cold engine starts is wait until the battery is at say 20% and then start the engine? This car can drive on all battery. It has good torque if you need to speed up quickly. Why not wait until you might actually need the engine to start it? But they don't care. Mitsubishi really stinks. Anybody else want to hold them accountable or do we just want to make excuses for them and allow them (and all other companies that sell PHEVs that seem to do the same in the cold) to rip us off?

 

[AndyInOz]

If you wanted an electric vehicle rather than a plug-in hybrid, shouldn't you have bought one?

 

[craze1234]

The go to response. NO!!!! I wanted the car advertised that can be driven around town on most trips electric and then driven on longer trips with gas. It is quite obvious the limitations and extreme costs of an ev. If the Outlander works as it should, I could handle most of my driving as an ev without limiting my range.

I am actually purchasing an ev now because of this flaw.

 

[craze1234]

In fact the "shouldn't you have just bought an ev" defense is exactly the point. I would not have bought this if it was stated clearly that there is no way (without warranty voiding modifications) to make this car run in ev under 40 degrees. The inclusion of an EV button seems especially deceptive.

 

[craze1234]

In fact the "shouldn't you have just bought an ev" defense is exactly the point. I would not have bought this if it was stated clearly that there is no way (without warranty voiding modifications) to make this car run in ev under 40 degrees. The inclusion of an EV button seems especially deceptive.

 

[greendwarf]

I can't answer for later models but I have been using the car exactly as you want to for the past 7.5 years without any difficulty - so I have no reason to join any class action. I also doubt that there are many users outside N America who would agree with you about a "Northern climate".

The problem is that, where you live doesn't have a maritime climate like most European and Japanese customers (and of course the Aussies & Kiwis live in perpetual sunshine, lol). You are even colder on average than the US West Coast so a PHEV (or EV) is never going to perform as well for you. :idea:

I doubt there are enough potential customers in your geographical region to justify Mitsu changing a design which otherwise fits for most of the rest of the 1st world.

 

[littlescrote]

I have more sympathy with you and if mine behaved that way it would be unsuitable for my requirements. Luckily in the UK, even in the winter which can be cold enough to trigger that behaviour, we don't suffer the same problem. It must therefore be a geographical control strategy.

I think that you're right to demand better and get the behaviour that you expected, but I suspect you'd struggle with any legal action as the behaviour can easily be defended for a hybrid vehicle. I would look to go down the route of a remap, or modification on the engine start circuitry to suit your needs (but then you'd possibly open yourself up to action if you had an accident that could have been avoided if you had the power available from the engine).

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Seriously? Have you sued the maker of every previous car you've driven because it didn't match the predicted mpg?

 

[jaapv]

Given that this is normal behaviour for any PHEV, I doubt whether you will get much further than wasting time and effort. It will end in "you should have researched your purchase better" Due Diligence, I believe it is called.
Your first sentence shows that you do not understand the design - A plug in hybrid is NOT sequential. The ICE and electric drive are integrated and will drive the car together for best efficiency under the circumstances. The buttons Eco, Save, Charge and EV will influence the bias, not the basic technology.

 

[craze1234]

I understand just fine that this car is capable of driving on battery alone and can in cold conditions. In fact, it did for the first year except at under 25 degrees. I wouldn't even have a big problem with that. I don't think that starting the engine at 40 degrees makes any sense. I don't think your criticism makes any sense.

And yes car makers whose cars don't work as promised should be held accountable including drastically missing their mpg estimate. I have a Prius and if it got 30 mpg, I would be equally angry. It doesn't because it works as it should. Wasn't Volkswagen recently sued for mpg lies?

I certainly understand the constraints of ev technology in northern climates and am perfectly willing to live with reduced range. What I can't live with is burning gas AND getting terrible range.

Just because all phevs sell the same myth is not a reason to not hold them accountable. It is more reason to.

I did a ton of research on this car including confirming through videos that cold weather Canadian users could drive in ev from the start.

 

[msmatt]

I fully understand your disappointment as I am in the same situation. My 2018 did not force-start the ICE in the first winter either. It was a design (software) change by Mitsubishi, done after I had already owned the car for many months that gave me this "feature".

Any research we could have done on the Outlander prior to it coming to North America would not have turned up the issue, because it didn't exist.

I understand running this way will probably give me overall better battery life, so I begrudgingly accept it (even though at 65k on the clock I'm down to 70% SOH now). What gets annoying though is for a 5km cold weather trip, the ICE runs maybe the first 3km, EV the remaining 2km. However, after turning the car off for a few minutes, and then starting it to return home, it runs the ICE again for the first 3km! This just points to sloppy programming. I doubt things have cooled below a critical setpoint in a few minutes.

Not related is my other favorite programming glitch - upon acceleration from a stop, the car starts on electric, then just before it gets to cruising speed (say 50km/h) the ICE starts to assist. A few seconds later, at speed, the ICE is not needed, it shuts down again. Still lots of room to improve the programming.

However, I am still happy to be averaging 5.5l/100km with a heavy SUV that can go to the cottage on the weekends.

 

[IslandLife]

I live in Victoria, BC, Canada... for north american's, we have virtually the same climate and temps as the Pacific North West of the US (Seattle), but with approx a third of the rain. Very mild winters with an average low temp of 7 (44) and temperate summers with an average high of 24 (75). I have a 2018 and for the first approx. 3 years, it was fairly easy to keep it in EV mode throughout the year and during the winter except during cold snaps. During my last scheduled service (just prior to this past winter), that changed. And now, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, it is impossible to keep the engine from starting if the ambient temp is approx 11 (51) degrees or below. Granted it only runs for approx 5 mins and so most of my commutes during the winter were still 80% run on the battery alone... but that was a stark change from my previous winters where most of my commutes were done with 100% EV driving.

They also substantially reduced the amount of regen available at the these same temps and even at warmer temps... I don't seem to be able to get the same amount and the usability drops of more quickly after extended use (driving down mountain passes). I have been driving to and from our local ski hill every weekend during the winter for the past 3 winters and (approx 10 times a summer to visit the bike park), and this winter I noticed a change in the regen abilities.

I am assuming this was done in the name of battery preservation, but it is annoying to see it happen. I have heard of some customers returning to the dealership to have the software reversed. But that probably has a lot to do with your personal relationship with your dealership. I'm on the fence about this though, because if they're doing it to preserve battery life then I'm probably better off in the long run, no?

I also agree with what others have said in that I don't think this class action has legs. If you live in a cold winter climate and expected a PHEV to be able to run as an EV whenever you wanted it to... even for anyone, no matter where they live, to expect a PHEV to do that, would be wishful thinking and any small amount of research would show that to be the case.

It's the same with EV's... none of the EV makers publish any info about range in cold winter weather climates, but basic common sense and knowledge and a little bit of research shows at least an approx 30% drop in range depending on maker and various conditions.

 

[jaapv]

Any research we could have done on the Outlander prior to it coming to North America would not have turned up the issue, because it didn't exist.

The car has been on the market since 2013, with tens of thousands sold in Europe and Japan. Norway is a major market, the climate is pretty cold up there, as it is in the North of Japan. A Google search would have turned up plenty of information.

 

[kpetrov]

No it wouldn't.
Since the vehicle was not available in Canada till 2018, moreover wanted to buy a second hand one I have reading about PHEV for years.
I knew right away about battery degradation and the BMU programming as culprit but very rarely complains about driving for 5km. with full battery and ICE running most of the time even while the heating is off.

Even today all owners out of North American market don't believe it and continue to give smart advises regarding EV startup sequence, preheating and to be easy on the accelerator all the time.
Not to mention a lot of complaints that the vehicle was not acting like that first few years.

 

[msmatt]

The car has been on the market since 2013, with tens of thousands sold in Europe and Japan. Norway is a major market, the climate is pretty cold up there, as it is in the North of Japan. A Google search would have turned up plenty of information.

That triggered my interest, so I did spend a few minutes googling "PHEV ICE running in cold weather in Norway". I didn't get any hits from Norway, but the search turned up a blog from Sweden. The entry was from 2016, here are some excerpts:

"....I had had my Outlander in garage overnight where the temperature was -6 degrees C (21 F). I used the pre-heat for 30 minutes just before departure. With EV drive only I drove toward Soderhamn, 25 km south and started the ventilation and heating system when I got half way to bring up the heat in the car again. At that time the petrol engine started, as it should."...

"....This morning it was -10 degrees (14 deg F) outside and I had the car parked in the garage overnight. The battery was not fully charged and I wasn’t running for the heater because I got an error message when I tried to do it. I put a car heater in for 10 min instead. Also this time I was able to make the whole journey in pure EV mode without starting the petrol engine."

It would seem that back in 2016 the trigger to start the ICE was much lower, seemingly around minus 10C, compared with the plus 10C we have to live with now. I think most people expect the ICE will start for heat at some point, but it's a surprise to those owners who did do some research, and thought they'd have at least some control over the ICE starting .

 

[kpetrov]

Moreover it is very easy to search and find when you already know what the problem is.

I have searched and quite a few among them the famous youtube blogger "Gary Reed Unfrequented World" even demonstrated how it runs almost purely on EV even at -20.

Well I was prepared to modify the vehicle and cut off the ICE so didn't care so much actually. :mrgreen:

 

[greendwarf]

We already know that after launch in North America the software was updated to cause the effect described. I agree it would be helpful if Mitsu explained why but as it doesn't appear to bring immediate customer benefits, we can assume it must have been done to avoid warranty claims.

If so, Mitsu have a built in defence against any legal action - especially as this is only a problem in winter and doesn't effect the whole NA market. I doubt that you can point to any claim that the car's performance remains the same all year round, on which to build as case. :?

 

[jaapv]

The car has been on the market since 2013, with tens of thousands sold in Europe and Japan. Norway is a major market, the climate is pretty cold up there, as it is in the North of Japan. A Google search would have turned up plenty of information.

That triggered my interest, so I did spend a few minutes googling "PHEV ICE running in cold weather in Norway". I didn't get any hits from Norway, but the search turned up a blog from Sweden. The entry was from 2016, here are some excerpts:

"....I had had my Outlander in garage overnight where the temperature was -6 degrees C (21 F). I used the pre-heat for 30 minutes just before departure. With EV drive only I drove toward Soderhamn, 25 km south and started the ventilation and heating system when I got half way to bring up the heat in the car again. At that time the petrol engine started, as it should."...

"....This morning it was -10 degrees (14 deg F) outside and I had the car parked in the garage overnight. The battery was not fully charged and I wasn’t running for the heater because I got an error message when I tried to do it. I put a car heater in for 10 min instead. Also this time I was able to make the whole journey in pure EV mode without starting the petrol engine."

It would seem that back in 2016 the trigger to start the ICE was much lower, seemingly around minus 10C, compared with the plus 10C we have to live with now. I think most people expect the ICE will start for heat at some point, but it's a surprise to those owners who did do some research, and thought they'd have at least some control over the ICE starting .

The trigger to start is about +10º C in Europe, and then it will run for about five minutes, longer as the temperature gets lower. Using the EV button and Eco will shorten this period significantly, sometimes down to nearly zero.

 

[craze1234]

April 4. 45 degrees. Engine start. Runs five minutes in ev mode. Dumb.

How does so many unnecessary engine starts protect the engine? How is the battery protected? It is still being used in tandem with the engine.

 

[SilverD]

Hi all,
Just wondering if fuel quality or time since refill has been taken into consideration.

No problems with my 2020 yet with down to -6 C during winter in Australia