Charging while on the Road in Europe

[Tabvla]

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This question relates specifically to Western Europe including all EU countries and the non-EU countries of Switzerland and Monaco.

Domestic electrical power supply in these countries is typically :-

Voltage : 220/240 volts at 50Hz. - Amperes for standard wall socket : 13amps fused. - Price per KWh : €0.15 (15 euro cents per KWh)

Assume that one is travelling with no particular destination. At the end of the day you decide to spend the night at a B&B (Bed and Breakfast). The B&B owner agrees to let you charge the PHEV from a standard wall socket. You have a weather-proof heavy-duty extension cable and the slow-charge power cable provided by Mitsubishi.

Q1. Is this a safe setup for both the B&B and the PHEV ? (assuming the owners dog doesn't chew the cable)

Q2. Do you need any other piece of equipment to ensure safe operation within the 13amp limit ?

Q3. What would be a fair price to pay the owner for the overnight battery-charge assuming the Li-ion needed a full top-up ?

Thanks

T.

 

[jaapv]

You will need an adapter from UK plug to continental plug (Schuko type) In Italy you might need an additional three-prong Italian plug, but not everywhere, there is a changeover going on..
On the Continent wall outlets are not fused, so no problem there. Most outlets are 16 A.

The typical price would be around 2 Euro for a private full charge, but in my experience the service is usually free.

In Holland you will find public charging points everywhere, but you need a Love-to-Load pass. Some venues and parking garages offer free charging. The ferry to Hook of Holland offers free charging. Typical price is in the order of 25-35 cent per KWh.
For public charging points you need a Mennekes cable.

 

[apyds]

I was told by my dealer that it can not be charged from an ordinary wall socket (he was showing me the IMIEV but said the Outlander PHEV would be the same). Apparently even to charge at 13amp the wire from the wall socket to the fuse board has to be thicker than usual. I cannot remember why.

 

[jaapv]

Mine is charging from a regular wall socket right now and I have done so dozens of times in the UK as well. The car charger supplied with the vehicle pulls 10A, well within the power limit of a normal household system... Thousands of owners do so....
I think your dealer needs to get up to speed with his knowledge :roll:

The Mennekes cable system which should come with the vehicle as well pulls 16A so cannot be taken from a wall plug without the electrical system being inspected and adapted (at least, in the UK which has 13 A max power on a standard wall plug).And one needs a charge box to plug it in.

 

[Tabvla]

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Thanks Jaapv and Apyds for your replies. A couple of comments on those....

In my original post I wrote "13amps fused". What I meant here is that many appliances are fitted with a "13amp fused plug" to protect the house-wiring that goes to wall-sockets which in turn is typically rated at around 15amps. If the PHEV charger has a 13amp fused plug then that should protect any wall-socket that it is plugged into anywhere in Western Europe. (Does not apply to Eastern Europe as voltages in those countries are often not 220/240 ).

"Love-to-Load Pass"... :?: .... Where can I buy one of those ? That sounds like an absolute must-have when next I am in the Netherlands.

The Mennekes cable is a "free" accessory included with the PHEV - Yes? No?

Apyds - if you live in Australia then you are correct. Max amps that can be drawn from a wall socket downunder is 10amps. You have to get an electrician to fit a 15amp socket for your PHEV which I was told costs about A$200

T.

 

[jaapv]

10 amps for the car charger should be well within any limits. European plugs are not fused.
I got the Mennekes cable and the charger/cable free with the car. I don’t know about the UK, though.

The love-to-load pas can be found here: https://my.thenewmotion.com
There is a free app with it that will indicate where the nearest charge points are and whether they are occupied.

 

[apyds]

Mine is charging from a regular wall socket right now and I have done so dozens of times in the UK as well. The car charger supplied with the vehicle pulls 10A, well within the power limit of a normal household system... Thousands of owners do so....
I think your dealer needs to get up to speed with his knowledge :roll:

I will check with my dealer again tomorrow. To be honest I agree with you about my dealer (I hope he does not read these forums :!: ). I seem to know a lot more about the car than he does.

So is it safe to use with an extension cable from the socket and plug the charger into the extension cable?

 

[jaapv]

If you don’t leave the connection in the rain and if the extension cord is at least 3x1.5, yes.

 

[Tabvla]

If you don’t leave the connection in the rain and if the extension cord is at least 3x1.5, yes.

And.... if you put a sign on it for the benefit of the neighbor's dog... "This is not a toy, if you bite this snake it will bite back". :lol:

T.

 

[jaapv]

It is afraid of black-and-yellow snakes

 

[apyds]

Mine is charging from a regular wall socket right now and I have done so dozens of times in the UK as well. The car charger supplied with the vehicle pulls 10A, well within the power limit of a normal household system... Thousands of owners do so....
I think your dealer needs to get up to speed with his knowledge :roll:

Checked with my dealer and this was his response:

"Having checked with Mitsubishi, they say that the charging point should be on a separate ring to the main circuits in the house as there could be a danger of overloading the circuits if several appliances drawing higher amps are all running at once. Apparently there will be a separate booklet regarding charging supplied with the cars at handover"

 

[jaapv]

IN that case your coffeemaker should be on a separate ring as well, as it can pull the same amps. :mrgreen: Of course you should not put everything on one group, that is nothing new.
When you get the car you will see that the owners manual is stuffed with all kinds of overcautious warnings.

 

[maddogsetc]

I'm pretty certain my dealer is plugging the demonstrator into a normal socket in his workshop

 

[jaapv]

Of course. Since when is there a need to adapt the wiring in order to run a 10A appliance from a 13A outlet?

 

[maddogsetc]

Indeed, but my point was that, whatever disclaimers etc the manufacturer's documents may contain, the dealer is happy to plug it in to a normal socket.

 

[Tabvla]

.
Perhaps a different way to view this is the following.... The Li-ion battery in the PHEV drawns LESS Amps than a fast-boil kettle.... :!:

Here is the calculation. A typical fast-boil kettle has a power-rating of 3000 watts. The formula to calculate the Amps drawn by your fast-boil kettle is as follows: -

Current (Amps) = Power (Watts) divided by Volts (Voltage). Therefore - 3000 (Watts) / 240 (Volts) = 12.5 (Amps)

As the PHEV only draws 10 amps I think it is fair to say that when on slow charge, at home, it is safer than the kettle in your kitchen.

And the wall-sockets in your kitchen will typically be on one or at the most two loops. Therefore it is quite possible that you could have the fast-boil kettle, toaster and microwave all running off the same loop at the same time. Under such circumstances the total current (Amps) drawn off the loop is potentially in excess of the 13 amp socket rating - but neither the fuse will blow nor the isolator will trip because at the Control Panel the fuse or isolator rating is typically around 20 amps for the loop which means that you would be able to run the fast-boil kettle, microwave and toaster at the same time.

So whatever dire warnings the manufacturer may give, be assured that it is quite safe to charge the PHEV from a standard wall-socket. The only situation that I can think of that could potentially cause a problem is when there is a sudden drop in the supply voltage, commonly known as a "brown-out". If, for example, the supply voltage was to drop to 180 Volts then the current drawn could potentially rise by about a third or 30%. This could possibly result in a blown fuse an isolator trip if a number of items are connected to the same loop.

T.

 

[cptnbbag]

The standard set up for sockets in a domestic situation (UK) is a 32Amp ring main, protected by a 32Amp MCB (its an RCD in most newer builds)

The circuit is designed so that the protective device will operate (trip) when the circuit is run over 32Amps (or short circuited/earth leakage).

The cable is sized on the length of the circuit to ensure that no damage will occur (over heating/fire/burning/insulation damage) until the MCB/RCD has had time to shut of the power.
Usually 2.5mm2 cable on normal situations, 4mm2 on a longer circuit.

This mean the ring mains will handle up to 32Amps without damage to the system.

If you overload the circuit by plugging in the charger for the PHEV, the worst that's going to happen is that the MCB/RCD will trip and need reset (just switched back up).
If it keeps tripping or wont go back into the on position - that's when you know you have a problem with overloading (or earth leakage with an RCD)

This of course depends on whether the circuit has been installed correctly.

The simplest way to check is to remove the faceplate of the socket your thinking of plugging the charge into and make sure that there are 6 cables coming to/from the socket - 2 live, 2 neutral and 2 earth. This indicates that its a ring circuit.
If you only have 3 cables - that indicates a radial spur circuit which can only handle 16Amps, but might have more than one socket on it.
Please remember to switch off the power at the distribution/consumer electricity board before remove any faceplates.

Its a five minute job for an electrician to check that everything is ok.

PS socket outlets are not fused - the plug is fused - the MCB/RCD protects the sockets, the plug fuse protects the piece of equipment being plugged in.

 

[Zimmerman]

The standard set up for sockets in a domestic situation (UK) is a 32Amp ring main, protected by a 32Amp MCB (its an RCD in most newer builds)

The circuit is designed so that the protective device will operate (trip) when the circuit is run over 32Amps (or short circuited/earth leakage).

The cable is sized on the length of the circuit to ensure that no damage will occur (over heating/fire/burning/insulation damage) until the MCB/RCD has had time to shut of the power.
Usually 2.5mm2 cable on normal situations, 4mm2 on a longer circuit.

This mean the ring mains will handle up to 32Amps without damage to the system.

If you overload the circuit by plugging in the charger for the PHEV, the worst that's going to happen is that the MCB/RCD will trip and need reset (just switched back up).
If it keeps tripping or wont go back into the on position - that's when you know you have a problem with overloading (or earth leakage with an RCD)

This of course depends on whether the circuit has been installed correctly.

The simplest way to check is to remove the faceplate of the socket your thinking of plugging the charge into and make sure that there are 6 cables coming to/from the socket - 2 live, 2 neutral and 2 earth. This indicates that its a ring circuit.
If you only have 3 cables - that indicates a radial spur circuit which can only handle 16Amps, but might have more than one socket on it.
Please remember to switch off the power at the distribution/consumer electricity board before remove any faceplates.

Its a five minute job for an electrician to check that everything is ok.

PS socket outlets are not fused - the plug is fused - the MCB/RCD protects the sockets, the plug fuse protects the piece of equipment being plugged in.

32A on a 2.5mm2 cable! You must be kidding, if true then the standard of electrical installations in the UK seem to be on par with the plumming;-)

 

[Fortune7]

The standard set up for sockets in a domestic situation (UK) is a 32Amp ring main, protected by a 32Amp MCB (its an RCD in most newer builds)

The circuit is designed so that the protective device will operate (trip) when the circuit is run over 32Amps (or short circuited/earth leakage).

The cable is sized on the length of the circuit to ensure that no damage will occur (over heating/fire/burning/insulation damage) until the MCB/RCD has had time to shut of the power.
Usually 2.5mm2 cable on normal situations, 4mm2 on a longer circuit.

This mean the ring mains will handle up to 32Amps without damage to the system.

If you overload the circuit by plugging in the charger for the PHEV, the worst that's going to happen is that the MCB/RCD will trip and need reset (just switched back up).
If it keeps tripping or wont go back into the on position - that's when you know you have a problem with overloading (or earth leakage with an RCD)

This of course depends on whether the circuit has been installed correctly.

The simplest way to check is to remove the faceplate of the socket your thinking of plugging the charge into and make sure that there are 6 cables coming to/from the socket - 2 live, 2 neutral and 2 earth. This indicates that its a ring circuit.
If you only have 3 cables - that indicates a radial spur circuit which can only handle 16Amps, but might have more than one socket on it.
Please remember to switch off the power at the distribution/consumer electricity board before remove any faceplates.

Its a five minute job for an electrician to check that everything is ok.

PS socket outlets are not fused - the plug is fused - the MCB/RCD protects the sockets, the plug fuse protects the piece of equipment being plugged in.

32A on a 2.5mm2 cable! You must be kidding, if true then the standard of electrical installations in the UK seem to be on par with the plumming;-)

No, 32A on 2 x 2.5mm cables, in a ring circuit as described. German physicist Gustav Kirchoff said so. Not sure ring circuits are too common in other parts of Europe, which is surprising as it's a much better method of power distribution than radial.
Cheers, Andy

 

[Hypermiler]

"In Holland you will find public charging points everywhere, but you need a Love-to-Load pass. "

Mmm, tried to get one but the website doesn't have English on the page where you apply for a card and when it got to putting some payment details in (I think), I didn't trust my Dutch translation so had to give up