Charge / Save / default

[gwatpe]

I seem to have spawned a monster...

For someone who doesn't yet know their driving pattern with respect to the EV part shall I just leave both off for now and see how it goes? I am unlikely to do any motorway driving in the first couple of weeks.

This is a monster that my travels away from a computer made me miss.

As only one of a known 2 PHEV's that can now default power ON in SAVE, or CHARGE mode, I have 5000+ km of my PHEV default power ON, in SAVE mode.

In the 5000 or so km, the PHEV generally maintained over 50%SOC with only 2 overnight top ups of corded electricity and one CHARGE mode to 3/4 following full depletion to reach a refuel stop with almost empty petrol tank.

If the road conditions demand high power needs and the PHEV is powered OFF before a chance to replace battery SOC, then the stored energy does deplete.

All PHEV owners who drive a mix of long and short trips, or towing needs would benefit from a default power ON of not just NORMAL mode. The drivers only doing short trips probably would not benefit.

My drives seem to favour the deferred use of the battery, or controlled use of the battery, so I benefit greatly from my PHEV powering ON in SAVE mode. Not having to remember to press a button is so good. Battery is depleted very quickly at highway speeds.

RE my driving lights. Yes they do provide excellent night time driving vision. Over 4km for road signs and cats eyes on a straight road. Only use spot lights away from towns and traffic. I can select which lights are ON, and they only work with the high beam. City and town driving are not real different to a std PHEV. I just have only white light, and no yellow. Animals are very easy to see in white light, and I much prefer to drive past an animal slowly, having seen it and taken action rather than saying "That was close", having whizzed past a kangaroo having not seen it, as had happened before I upgraded.

 

[anko]

All PHEV owners who drive a mix of long and short trips, or towing needs would benefit from a default power ON of not just NORMAL mode. The drivers only doing short trips probably would not benefit.

My drives seem to favour the deferred use of the battery, or controlled use of the battery, so I benefit greatly from my PHEV powering ON in SAVE mode. Not having to remember to press a button is so good. Battery is depleted very quickly at highway speeds.

Call me crazy, but I still don't get it. Especially if your type of driving is a real mixture of short and long trips (inside versus outside EV range), what difference does it make what mode you car starts up in? Statistically, it will be the wrong mode half of the time anyway. When you make predominantly short trips, it would be nice to have Save mode off by default, which you have. Perhaps I f you make predominantly long trips, it would be nice if Save mode would be On by default.

Towing a caravan is something most of us will be doing no more that 4 - 6 (?) days a year. Yes, you can forget to turn on Save (or Charge) mode without sticky option, but with such option, you can still forget to turn it on or to turn it off again when you are done towing. Yes, if I was towing most of the time, I would see added value, but then I would not have a PHEV.

Also, let's not forget: you can press Save (or Charge) at any time during your trip. It is not as if you are lost when you are one or two minutes late. In that sense, can you built something that automatically turns off the heater before the car powers on completely? That is something I would buy from you. Because if you are only 2 seconds late with doing that, it may cause undersized startup of your engine. No room for mistakes there :mrgreen:

 

[greendwarf]

I seem to have spawned a monster...

For someone who doesn't yet know their driving pattern with respect to the EV part shall I just leave both off for now and see how it goes? I am unlikely to do any motorway driving in the first couple of weeks.

BTW if you are getting a GX3 then you don't get the battery "bars" referred to in previous posts, they part of the MMCS display. The standard dashboard battery display will go down to completely empty even when you still have 30% reserve referred to - so, as with Hitchhiker - Don't Panic! :lol:

 

[maby]

...

Call me crazy, but I still don't get it. Especially if your type of driving is a real mixture of short and long trips (inside versus outside EV range), what difference does it make what mode you car starts up in? Statistically, it will be the wrong mode half of the time anyway. When you make predominantly short trips, it would be nice to have Save mode off by default, which you have. Perhaps I f you make predominantly long trips, it would be nice if Save mode would be On by default.

...

It depends entirely on your pattern of usage - which may vary across the week or year. I would like the ability to configure the default - gwatpe's mod goes some way towards that, but ideally it should be a setting in the MMCS with memory. Irrespective of the default selected, there will be times when it is inappropriate for a given journey, so the question really comes down to the consequences of having Save set incorrectly. Driving a short journey in Save will certainly push up your fuel consumption, but it is a short journey, so the actual financial impact will be small. Driving a long/fast journey without Save will leave you with a flat battery and a car that (depending on your tastes) feels underpowered.

All my weekday usage is on EV, just firing up the petrol engine occasionally for power boost off the lights. But my fuel consumption is dominated by weekend usage and the average is coming out between 45 and 50mpg. An occasional inappropriate day on Save is not going to make a noticeable difference.

 

[anko]

All my weekday usage is on EV, just firing up the petrol engine occasionally for power boost off the lights. But my fuel consumption is dominated by weekend usage and the average is coming out between 45 and 50mpg. An occasional inappropriate day on Save is not going to make a noticeable difference.

I had hoped it would not be all about money. There is also something we call the environment, the reason why there are tax plans for cars like this. The environmental primarily benefits from NOT having the engine running on short trips. Any idea how polluting an engine is when it is not properly warmed up? Every time you forget to disable sticky Save (in time) on a short trip, it results in an unnecessary cold start, most likely in a residential area. Doesn't that count for anything?

Apart from that, how much do you think an engine would benefit from preventing cold starts on short trips?

 

[anko]

BTW if you are getting a GX3 then you don't get the battery "bars" referred to in previous posts, they part of the MMCS display. The standard dashboard battery display will go down to completely empty even when you still have 30% reserve referred to - so, as with Hitchhiker - Don't Panic! :lol:

The MMCS display will also show empty at 30%. It is the same info presented with different graphics.

 

[maby]

All my weekday usage is on EV, just firing up the petrol engine occasionally for power boost off the lights. But my fuel consumption is dominated by weekend usage and the average is coming out between 45 and 50mpg. An occasional inappropriate day on Save is not going to make a noticeable difference.

I had hoped it would not be all about money. There is also something we call the environment, the reason why there are tax plans for cars like this. The environmental primarily benefits from NOT having the engine running on short trips. Any idea how polluting an engine is when it is not properly warmed up? Every time you forget to disable sticky Save (in time) on a short trip, it results in an unnecessary cold start, most likely in a residential area. Doesn't that count for anything?

Apart from that, how much do you think an engine would benefit from preventing cold starts on short trips?

Well, I do try to avoid getting it wrong, but if I do make a mistake, I prefer it to be excessive use of Save rather than running on a flat battery.

I do believe that, for most owners, the environmental benefits of a PHEV with its very short EV range are more symbolic than real. Mitsubishi don't publish CO2 emissions figures for a PHEV running on petrol - but the quoted fuel consumption on a flat battery is similar to that of the diesel Outlander, so we can probably assume that the PHEV running as a petrol car is pushing out around 150g/km. It is tempting to think of the CO2 footprint of a PHEV as being zero while it is running in EV mode, but it is a lot more than that. EDF are targeting getting the CO2 footprint of electricity generation down to 250g/kWh - by 2020 - it was over 800g/kWh a few years ago. On that basis, a PHEV running in pure EV mode and achieving an optimistic 50km EV range will be emitting around 50g/km CO2. Doing a more realistic 35 km average EV range, it is effectively emitting over 70g/km. A Skoda Fabia estate does around 90g/km irrespective of distance driven - few PHEV owners are actually actively saving the environment.

 

[gwatpe]

The way the PHEV works, helps the driver with the buttons ONLY if it starts in SAVE mode.

The PHEV drives very quietly in EV mode and also a short distance in SAVE mode. If you only have NORMAL mode on power ON there is no cue for the driver to make any change to buttons manually. If the PHEV starts in NORMAL mode, the noise cue of the petrol engine happens only after the battery is depleted. If the driver had wanted some additional battery for a later portion of a drive, then it would be likely that it would have been already used up. No benefit gained.

If however the driver should have been in NORMAL mode, and the PHEV was powered ON in SAVE mode, then there will be the noise cue of the petrol engine starting, at which point the driver can easily just press the SAVE button, to revert to NORMAL mode.

The PHEV is not an EV only and considering the programming forces the petrol engine to be run occasionally, I see no problem in using it a bit at odd times I may forget to turn OFF the SAVE mode when I want to be predominantly EV.

BTW I walk to my local shop instead of driving and I no longer work, so don't need a car for that either. My PHEV is averaging about 6.5L/100km, compared to the car it replaced at 10.5L/100km. Some days my PHEV gets a holiday and stays in the garage. Eventually My drives will only be local and predominantly EV, and then I will want a chauffeur.

I suspect that a driver who chooses to be quick off the mark at the lights once in a drive will be more polluting than if I am a little late in engaging NORMAL mode on a shorter drive. Trouble is an EV intention-ed driver with a lead foot has an underlying sense that the occasional use of the petrol is OK and is unaware this probably produces more pollution. A high power demand forces the petrol motor to rev hard at short notice compared to the motor just starting up at a low power because of a setting the car is in.

I think this debate will continue until some physical evidence of the pro's and con's surface. ie engine or battery failures occur.

 

[Grigou]

You want to be in Save ? Just push Save.
You want to be in Charge ? Juste push Charge.

It is my philosophy for driving this car.
Just mine ... but Mitsu think that it is a good philosophy, since EV is the default mode

 

[anko]

If however the driver should have been in NORMAL mode, and the PHEV was powered ON in SAVE mode, then there will be the noise cue of the petrol engine starting, at which point the driver can easily just press the SAVE button, to revert to NORMAL mode.

So, you think it is okay to depend on burning fuel, even in the most polluting way (because the engine is cold), to alert the driver to the fact that he is not using the car in the most environmentally friendly way? I am sorry, but I am afraid, will never understand that

The PHEV is not an EV only and considering the programming forces the petrol engine to be run occasionally, I see no problem in using it a bit at odd times I may forget to turn OFF the SAVE mode when I want to be predominantly EV.

BTW I walk to my local shop instead of driving and I no longer work, so don't need a car for that either. My PHEV is averaging about 6.5L/100km, compared to the car it replaced at 10.5L/100km. Some days my PHEV gets a holiday and stays in the garage. Eventually My drives will only be local and predominantly EV, and then I will want a chauffeur.

Again, it seems your driving patter is much more suitable for an HEV or a even a diesel or petrol car for that matter. And now you try to convert your PHEV into an HEV with the argument that it is not a true EV

My trip to work is 41 km one way, and I make it an effort to get drive it back and forth purely as an EV, each and every day. Not because of the money, but because I want to use it as environmentally friendly as possible. I would be rather annoyed if the engine ran for no other reason than me forgetting to disable Auto Save. Same as I am annoyed when the engine runs for no other reason than me forgetting to turn off the heater the night before.

 

[Neverfuel]

I have to admit, I don't get the benefit of hitting save unless you are unaware of the terrain you may encounter ahead, or if you know you will get better use of the EV range in traffic (definitely for towing). I would prefer to run charge if the battery is low or I am high speed. It will use more fuel, undoubtedly. But if the engine is running, in my opinion anyway, it should be producing more than heat!

Just my twopenneth.

 

[gwatpe]

My trip to work is 41 km one way, and I make it an effort to get drive it back and forth purely as an EV, each and every day. Not because of the money, but because I want to use it as environmentally friendly as possible. I would be rather annoyed if the engine ran for no other reason than me forgetting to disable Auto Save. Same as I am annoyed when the engine runs for no other reason than me forgetting to turn off the heater the night before.

I used to get annoyed when I was enjoying driving the car and had forgotten to press the SAVE mode button to preserve some battery for the stop start driving in the middle of a trip to the city, and arrived in the city with a depleted battery, and that reserve energy source was unavailable for the long steep uphill drive on the way home.

My PHEV is essentially still exactly the same as your PHEV. If I know that I will only be driving on electric, I can just press the button to get NORMAL mode, after powering ON. If the EV usage pattern continues, I just disable the SAVE feature, and the car is like any other Mitsubishi PHEV.

You assume that every time I drive the car, some petrol is used. NOT so.

If Mitsubishi had designed the PHEV with settable user settings, then you would still be able to configure the car to your predominant needs. I would be able to configure the car to my predominant needs. The needs may vary over time and if the car was sold, then the next owners needs may be different as well.

The only thing I have is a car that can be powered ON with a user preferred setting, and this can still be the same as your preference.

I only need the one car for all my driving needs, so the environmental impact of only needing one car far outweighs any tiny negative environmental impact of me occasionally letting the petrol motor run for a few seconds because I may have forgotten to revert to NORMAL mode.

The fact that Mitsubishi have provided a SAVE button as well as a CHARGE button does hint that this car is not specifically an EV. Mitsubishi have really only forgotten to provide a settable user preferred mode at power ON.

We must also remember that there are PHEV owners who only refill the petrol tank.

 

[greendwarf]

I do believe that, for most owners, the environmental benefits of a PHEV with its very short EV range are more symbolic than real. Mitsubishi don't publish CO2 emissions figures for a PHEV running on petrol - but the quoted fuel consumption on a flat battery is similar to that of the diesel Outlander, so we can probably assume that the PHEV running as a petrol car is pushing out around 150g/km. It is tempting to think of the CO2 footprint of a PHEV as being zero while it is running in EV mode, but it is a lot more than that. EDF are targeting getting the CO2 footprint of electricity generation down to 250g/kWh - by 2020 - it was over 800g/kWh a few years ago. On that basis, a PHEV running in pure EV mode and achieving an optimistic 50km EV range will be emitting around 50g/km CO2. Doing a more realistic 35 km average EV range, it is effectively emitting over 70g/km. A Skoda Fabia estate does around 90g/km irrespective of distance driven - few PHEV owners are actually actively saving the environment.

But in London air quality is a real and highly charged political issue - so not only am I saving myself money but I am actively part of the local solution :mrgreen:

 

[maby]

I do believe that, for most owners, the environmental benefits of a PHEV with its very short EV range are more symbolic than real. Mitsubishi don't publish CO2 emissions figures for a PHEV running on petrol - but the quoted fuel consumption on a flat battery is similar to that of the diesel Outlander, so we can probably assume that the PHEV running as a petrol car is pushing out around 150g/km. It is tempting to think of the CO2 footprint of a PHEV as being zero while it is running in EV mode, but it is a lot more than that. EDF are targeting getting the CO2 footprint of electricity generation down to 250g/kWh - by 2020 - it was over 800g/kWh a few years ago. On that basis, a PHEV running in pure EV mode and achieving an optimistic 50km EV range will be emitting around 50g/km CO2. Doing a more realistic 35 km average EV range, it is effectively emitting over 70g/km. A Skoda Fabia estate does around 90g/km irrespective of distance driven - few PHEV owners are actually actively saving the environment.

But in London air quality is a real and highly charged political issue - so not only am I saving myself money but I am actively part of the local solution :mrgreen:

I did say "... for most owners..." - you may be one of those for whom a short EV range vehicle does make a measurable ecological difference. But I do maintain that the genuine environmental credentials of the PHEV are being overstated and you really do have to be using it almost exclusively for short distance EV-only driving for it to be positive.

 

[Titan]

Well I like to take the view that any reduction in harmful emissions is an improvement. As the saying goes, you start a marathon with a single step.

 

[PeterGalbavy]

One more Q since I haven't done any distance driving yet.

If I get on the motorway and hit Charge, once it has finished charging does it turn itself off, become the same as Save or something else?

 

[PhevWestNorway]

One more Q since I haven't done any distance driving yet.

If I get on the motorway and hit Charge, once it has finished charging does it turn itself off, become the same as Save or something else?

Have not tryed but expect it to keep the battery full (engine on/off as normal hybrid mode).
Like hitting Charge on full battery does not start the engine.

 

[jaapv]

It will behave like save @ 80%. There is a diagram somewhere in the Forum.

 

[jaapv]

Well, I do try to avoid getting it wrong, but if I do make a mistake, I prefer it to be excessive use of Save rather than running on a flat battery.

I do believe that, for most owners, the environmental benefits of a PHEV with its very short EV range are more symbolic than real. Mitsubishi don't publish CO2 emissions figures for a PHEV running on petrol - but the quoted fuel consumption on a flat battery is similar to that of the diesel Outlander, so we can probably assume that the PHEV running as a petrol car is pushing out around 150g/km. It is tempting to think of the CO2 footprint of a PHEV as being zero while it is running in EV mode, but it is a lot more than that. EDF are targeting getting the CO2 footprint of electricity generation down to 250g/kWh - by 2020 - it was over 800g/kWh a few years ago. On that basis, a PHEV running in pure EV mode and achieving an optimistic 50km EV range will be emitting around 50g/km CO2. Doing a more realistic 35 km average EV range, it is effectively emitting over 70g/km. A Skoda Fabia estate does around 90g/km irrespective of distance driven - few PHEV owners are actually actively saving the environment.

Well, one of the reasons for that is the lagging behind countries like Denmark in wind power and like Germany in Solar power (on a really sunny day Germany's power demand can be met for 50% by Solar power, average about 17%).

Not knocking the UK, The Netherlands are doing only marginally better.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ise.fraunhofer.de%2Fen%2Fdownloads-englisch%2Fpdf-files-englisch%2Fdata-nivc-%2Felectricity-production-from-solar-and-wind-in-germany-2014.pdf&ei=8ZF1VZWwLsarU-HmgdgK&usg=AFQjCNFetCrzGNURKKkCOu-_jc9xbZPCZQ&bvm=bv.95039771,d.d24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark

Whatever else, my PHEV gets recharged virtually solely on renewable-source electricity and my daily commute is about 25 miles, so I am happy to run within ecological parameters.
The only time I use petrol is on longer drives.

 

[maby]

One more Q since I haven't done any distance driving yet.

If I get on the motorway and hit Charge, once it has finished charging does it turn itself off, become the same as Save or something else?

In my experience, no - but others here claim differently. From what I've observed of the car's behaviour, I believe that the control algorithms are based on fuzzy logic and are not particularly deterministic. I have certainly seen it sitting stationary with the engine running and the display showing it trying, unsuccessfully, to fill up the last block on the battery charge display.