Charge mode?

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Roxyman

Active member
Joined
Jul 6, 2024
Messages
28
Location
Wales
Im new to the Outlander Phev. Can anyone explain why on a reasonable run, ie 75-80 miles, you would not keep the car in 'charge' mode as opposed to 'normal' providing of course the battery is not full. It's maybe a dumb question but I'm not proud and do find the cars technology quite fascinating so trying to understand it a bit more. It just seems to me to be counter productive to have the ICE running and not using the energy to charge the battery.
Thanks
 
I think the only circumstances I can imagine, would be if you expect a long downhill at the end of your journey, or if you're going to be in a situation where you can charge at the end of your journey.

For example, if you are crossing a mountain range, but have a long descent into your sea-side camping site at the end.

Under that circumstance, I'd leave a lot of head room in the battery, so that I can manage the descent using the regenerative braking 'B' levels.

Many members prefer to arrive home at a low level of charge, so that they can charge up overnight at home.

That gives the most value for money, and the best results for the environment.

Please note that the car won't stay in 'Charge' permanently. As soon as the battery hits 80% charge mode turns off. It is comparable to 'Save' mode in this way.

Regenerative braking is similar. If you have no headroom, it doesn't work. Newer models use engine braking under those circumstances. Models like mine, you find yourself having to ride the brakes on a downhill if you run out of battery space.
 
You're thinking about it in the wrong way. If the engine is running, the most efficient use of its output is to drive the wheels directly, rather than lose efficiency going through the generator, into the battery, back out of the battery and through the motor.

What it does then do, is if there is any spare power, eg you are on a flat road, is to dump that excess into the battery, rather than throttle the engine down and reduce its efficiency.
 
Im new to the Outlander Phev. Can anyone explain why on a reasonable run, ie 75-80 miles, you would not keep the car in 'charge' mode as opposed to 'normal' providing of course the battery is not full. It's maybe a dumb question but I'm not proud and do find the cars technology quite fascinating so trying to understand it a bit more. It just seems to me to be counter productive to have the ICE running and not using the energy to charge the battery.
Thanks
If you run in normal, when the battery gets low, it automatically runs the motor to charge the batteries. Charge is used when you are anticipating a quiet zone coming up and you want electric.
 
When I'm on a 200 mile journey with 50mph+ possible.
I drive EV down to about 5 miles range.
CHARGE until I'm back to 20 mile range.
Run in EV down to 5 miles.
Rinse and repeat.
That's roughly 50/50 petrol/EV.
 
I believe michael8554 method is the best way to use PHEV.

And I would like to add a little bit of theoretical background of this method.

ICE engine burns Gasoline and it move the cylinder. When the material stays in gas state (not abbreviation of gasoline but a general of material existence state, like "Gas", "Liquid", "Solid"), material flying inside a volume as molecule state. We called it pressure. When gasoline burns together with oxygen (it is called combustion) inside cylinder, it creates "Heat". Combustion last only in less than a second and the created Heat by combustion provides molecules of material inside cylinder high energy level and molecules move in enormous speed and this is called High Pressure. High pressure pushes away only movable part of the cylinder, which is "Cylinder Head". Four cylinder Heads move in turns and it transfer push energy to crankshaft circular motion. We call it "Torque"

This energy of torque transferred to Transmission and rotate drive shaft and the car is moving. Transmission is essential because the combustion energy is Liner to gasoline consumption and this is restricted in a certain range, Cylinder size decides minimum energy to move cylinder and maximum energy to move cylinder head. The range is known as RPM, stands for "Round Per Minute". In each RPM, energy level is different. To get more efficiency, RPM vs numbers of tire rotate should be low. That is controlled by transmission. The reason why I explained is that during whole process from burning the gasoline to the car moving, there exist "Efficiency Of Combustion Engine". Government Official states that Efficiency of the Combustion is 12% to 30%. In early stage of the Combustion is less than 5%. This can be easily understood as "When you spend $100 for Gasoline, average $20 will be used for car moving. The rest money is for Heat, Vibration, and verity of mechanical friction energy all through the way to Tires.

Different with ICE, EV uses Electric Motor which uses different "Energy" to create torque. It is called Electro-Magnetic energy. Where there is flow of electric, magnetic power is created. When we apply electricity to rotor, it generates magnetic force and it has S and N. Surrounding rotor, there are lines of permanent magnetics and the magnetic force from rotor and permanent magnetic force are push and pull in tern and it creates circulation movement of rotor. There is no energy transition from liner movement to circular movement, not like ICE. Combustion energy moves Cylinder linearly and this linear movement transferred to crankshaft for circular movement, where there are lots of energy loss. And Rotor's circular movement is transferred to drive shaft and it turns tire. The difference of power transferring between ICE and Electric motor is that ICE required transmission to maximize the power efficiency, but electric motor doesn't. Since the power amount to transferred to tire can be controlled by the electricity supply quantity directly in EV. Thus, when we spend $100 of electricity, 80% to 90% of electricity is use for car moving. Heat, noise, mechanical friction is minimal compare to ICE.

Gasoline is very unstable material. However, we add a lots of safety device and control method to keep it in safe. EV uses electricity. It is unstable too, but we also apply safe device and control method to use it safely. Gasoline tank is rather safe rather than Electron Tank, which we say DC Battery. Both energy source is dangerous, but we are improving the tech to keep and use it safely.

Now we have to talk about Hybrid.

Engineers and inventers are keep studying how to move the car safely and efficiently, because the transportation is the top important issue in human society and car industry is big enough non to second.
Transportation is not simple activity in human. As it is not the concept of moving things, but it became the issue of HOW TO MOVE. There is a JOY of moving, Art of moving, Comfort of moving, Economy of moving, including memories of life with the car, ETC

Hybrid started from long time ago. But EV is totally rely on battery technology. Until we have enough of battery tech, EV is just an mirage. In 1997, Toyota finally showed us the first mass production of Hybrid car in the market. The Prius. Still the battery price is too high, full EV is still future industry. But spending as little money as possible, they grafted EV character to ICE car.

Toyota tried to minimize the loss of energy by deleting Idling ICE, start car with EV first, regenerate electric energy when stopping. These are 3 most wasting fuel in ICE car. Using electric motor with limited battery just run the car 12v system while idling, start the car with electric motor to minimize inefficiency of ICE by the Newton's Law, and charge the battery when stopping procedure. The energy efficiency increase 20% - 40% more than ICE only car.

As the Battery price goes down, engineers tried to apply bigger battery to maximize the effect of EV in Hybrid car. Concept is exactly same but install bigger battery. However, bigger battery cannot be charged enough from ICE during running, it should be charged by Grid. It is PHEV. As a result, more Battery use, less gasoline use, high gas mileage.

Charge mode in PHEV is a kind of derivative concept. Hybrid Engine generates electricity while running by using generator. However, the quantity of generated power is not enough to charge the PHEV battery while driving, since lots of power from generator already consumed by 12v circuit. Actually generating energy by ICE is not efficient. However, that energy loss will be regenerated by using EV, which has at least 80% of efficiency. That concept creates idea that use EV for 15 miles and the charge battery to 80% and then use EV again with high efficiency.

But I am a little spurious about this effectiveness because it could be related with battery life span, I am not sure. I am expecting the right answer about that 15 miles run and charge it and repeating this procedure is actually remarkably efficient, and this procedure is not affecting the life span of the battery.
 
When I'm on a 200 mile journey with 50mph+ possible.
I drive EV down to about 5 miles range.
CHARGE until I'm back to 20 mile range.
Run in EV down to 5 miles.
Rinse and repeat.
That's roughly 50/50 petrol/EV.
I believe normal does the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Once it hits the lower limit, turns the engine on for a bit, then back off for a bit.
Looking at the numbers on mine, the battery just gets absolutely chewed when going 110km, I don’t thing the motors are particularly efficient at those speeds
 
I believe normal does the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Once it hits the lower limit, turns the engine on for a bit, then back off for a bit.
Looking at the numbers on mine, the battery just gets absolutely chewed when going 110km, I don’t thing the motors are particularly efficient at those speeds
I have to say again in this post how we save gas in Hybrid, PHEV.
ICE consumes more gas when
1. The car is idling
2. When start car
3. Sudden acceleration

So Hybrid engine (Computer) senses this situations and use EV power in special cases.
1. Stop idling when no need to move the car. In case of ICE stops major 12v system has no power supply, but in Hybrid, battery continuously supply power to 12 v system because it has bigger drive battery.
2. Start to move the car with Electric motor first and ICE join later.
3. Add Motor power when needs acceleration.
By doing so, usually we can save 10% to 40% gas consume.

In PHEV, since we have more battery capacity, we can have far longer battery only driving distance than Hybrid. All other functions are exactly same.

In highway, under steady speed, electric motor does minor for power or nothing for power. Instead, ICE runs generator to charge the Battey but I have no idea how much power to be charged in battery in this condition.

However, Outlander PHEV has charge mode and Save mode. The compute decides when to charge and when to run the motor according to the car speed and road condition, ICE status. Charge mode can stop computer decision and urge to run the ICE generator to charge up to 80%. When it reached 80%, Charge mode released automatically. The computer runs as normal. Save mode is preventing electric motor runs, and keep battery state as normal hybrid mode.
 
As far as I can tell, the cycle is run on battery till depleted, - run ice, excess energy used to top up battery until sufficient is available to use battery. 'normal' mode depletion = 0k estimate range, 'sufficient' = 1k range. Save mode sets 'depleted to whatever it is currently, and ' sufficient ' is that plus 1k. So it will cycle around your set point. Charge mode sets' sufficient ' to be 80% charge, so it won't cycle, just accumulate charge.

Both these modes are useful to retain some battery for a slow speed, or high load, part of your trip. Slow speed because "series" mode is less efficient, and high load because that provides some extra 'boost' capacity.

I seriously doubt, apart from avoiding series mode, it makes much difference to overall economy.
Guessing what point to turn charge off to arrive home with 0 battery is a fun exercise on boring trips though...
Regards Russell
 
I believe normal does the same thing, just on a smaller scale. Once it hits the lower limit, turns the engine on for a bit, then back off for a bit.
Looking at the numbers on mine, the battery just gets absolutely chewed when going 110km, I don’t thing the motors are particularly efficient at those speeds
I think it has much to do with air resistance at the higher speeds too. The vehicle is not particularly aerodynamic.
I find the difference in fuel consumption at lower speeds (80-90km) dramatic compared to 110km and above.
If I'm to believe the guage in the car, fuel consumption is worse if I use Charge to recharge the battery to 80% then run EV until it is depleted repeatedly on a long highway trip. Either using Save for the minimum I need for city streets to get home or just letting the car handle it by letting the battery deplete then recharge in small amounts seems to give me better numbers.
 
I think it has much to do with air resistance at the higher speeds too. The vehicle is not particularly aerodynamic.
I find the difference in fuel consumption at lower speeds (80-90km) dramatic compared to 110km and above.
If I'm to believe the guage in the car, fuel consumption is worse if I use Charge to recharge the battery to 80% then run EV until it is depleted repeatedly on a long highway trip. Either using Save for the minimum I need for city streets to get home or just letting the car handle it by letting the battery deplete then recharge in small amounts seems to give me better numbers.
I do not mean I don't agree with you. I respect your actual experience result. I have Just a little bit, I said just a little bit of different way of approaching to the gas efficiency.

ICE generates electric power by rotating "The Rotor in the Generator". The generated power will go directly to the Traction Battery. In order to maximize the efficiency of the power transferring, Generator generates high DC voltage and the circuit is designed to carry the High DC Voltage to the battery. I do not know the efficiency of such circuit as per data sheet. But based on ICE general efficiency to wheels , it should be higher than ICE power transferred to the wheels. For your reference, ICE fuel efficiency to the wheels is 12% - 30%.

Saved electricity will be used to run Electric motor as high efficiency as 80% - 90% to the wheels. If my assumption is correct, fuel -> ICE -> Transmission -> Differential Gear -> Wheels will consume more than fuel -> Rotor inside Generator -> DC-DC circuit -> Battery - Rotor inside Electric Motor -> Wheels.

Sure, it is not proved by any means so far. It is just my guess. However, even if this is right guess, since there is no data sheet by numbers, I do not know how much more efficient by numbers. Also, I am concerning of Battery Life span affected by repeated charge and discharge. I've heard that small amount of charge and discharge is not affect battery life span significantly but I doubt it, unless data sheet proves it.

Everybody has different style of the driving. My daily journey distance is less than 10 miles. This means that I do not need to refill the gas almost a year, if I charge every night. Unfortunately, PHEV system urge to fill 5 gallons per 90 days to maintain sound fuel. So I am out of Fuel Efficiency Discussion. I am disqualified to join in Fuel Efficiency by the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV engineers. The plan is I once fill the gas tank and battery, I have to run without charging the battery until the gas tank is half. So first 22 miles will be covered by electric motor, then the computer controls ICE and electric motor just like Hybrid Only car. I may charge couple of times during a quarter year but no more than that to maintain good fuel condition as Mitsubishi Engineers being satisfied.
 
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The ICE isn't efficient until warmed up.
So does leaving the car to manage itself lead to lots of warm ups ?
Whereas every 15 miles is fewer warm ups ?
 
Interesting replies , thanks.
I guess there will be lot of trial and error in learning the nature of the beast! It does seem to me at the early stages that a lot depends on each individuals driving style and the topography of the regular drives.
 
As far as I can tell, the cycle is run on battery till depleted, - run ice, excess energy used to top up battery until sufficient is available to use battery. 'normal' mode depletion = 0k estimate range, 'sufficient' = 1k range. Save mode sets 'depleted to whatever it is currently, and ' sufficient ' is that plus 1k. So it will cycle around your set point. Charge mode sets' sufficient ' to be 80% charge, so it won't cycle, just accumulate charge.

Both these modes are useful to retain some battery for a slow speed, or high load, part of your trip. Slow speed because "series" mode is less efficient, and high load because that provides some extra 'boost' capacity.

I seriously doubt, apart from avoiding series mode, it makes much difference to overall economy.
Guessing what point to turn charge off to arrive home with 0 battery is a fun exercise on boring trips though...
Regards Russell
It is difficult to share opinions each other as if we are in the conference room, because posting is not happening in real time. It delays too long to post.
I already cleared my opinion and you can see now because it has been passed a day.

If usual journey is more than EV distance, coming back home with 0 mile on battery only is the best way to use PHEV. That results maximum fuel efficiency from the PHEV. But michael8554 is talking about when we drive 200km journey situation. We can use EV mode only one time on one journey. The rest miles are covered by Hybrid only concept. You have it cleared on your posting what Hybrid only process is.

We would like to talk about which one could be better if we leave all situation as Hybrid only or if we use charge function as michael8554 suggested.

On this subject, I left my opinion and questions. I showed reasonable diagnostic approach based on the theory of ICE, HEV, PHEV and EV characters. I said there that it is only a guess which my brain can think of. However, I believe Michael8554 result.

When the road and driving circumstances requires high speed or series mode, it can not be main variables to the main issue. It looks like rude behavior if someone drives so concern of fuel efficiency that he does not care about other drivers on the same street.
 
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When I'm on a 200 mile journey with 50mph+ possible.
I drive EV down to about 5 miles range.
CHARGE until I'm back to 20 mile range.
Run in EV down to 5 miles.
Rinse and repeat.
That's roughly 50/50 petrol/EV.
My 2 cents.

I have tried various methods to figure out the best economy on a trip that is say 85% highway then 15% in the town I drive to.

I seem to get better fuel mileage when I deplete battery on highway and let it do it's normal hybrid thing (using that spare 1.8kw ish it always keeps) , instead of depleting, charge while driving then running 100% battery to deplete again etc.

For the trip overall, for me it makes most sense to drive on highway until depleted, then turn on charge mode until I get the desired km's I figured i'll need while IN the city, and then put on save mode. so when I am in the city I use all electric again .

In Hybrid mode I typically get 7-8.5 liters per 100km's , if I turn on charge that goes to about 12-13 liters per 100kms. so that extra 5'ish is still less then driving in hybrid in the city so to me it makes sense.
 
Just did a 1000 km round trip.
Left with battery depleted, got 7.8L/100

On the same journey back, left with about a 1/3 battery, and used charge to get battery back up while driving. Then used save on the highway/normal when passing through smaller towns, and EV while crossing the city back to my workshop.
Ended up with 9.7L/100 on the way back.
I had a big climb out of the city on the way, and a big descent back to the city on the return, otherwise fairly flat.
There was a fair bit of wind on the way back, so the test is probably not 100% accurate, but still interesting.
 
I am still updating my knowledge about PHEV and Hybrid through the postings here. There looks lots of professionals here.

By the way, trex claims that it consumes 3.2 liter to charge the battery from bottom to top by idling the car. This is same claim from Mitsubishi Salesman on You Tube.

On the contrary, martinh claims "No Way". It will be consumed 5 liters to charge 10 kwh while driving the car in 100km/h. According to his calculation. Detailed calculation is in martinh thread.

If I combine 2 different claims, idling is lowest fuel efficient but high efficient on generator. High speed in ICE has it most high fuel efficiency because high RPM has more power to move the car. If it shares the power to generator, it will lose the efficiency of torque. So, need more gas for generator.

So the number shows that charge battery in charge mode when the car has speed of 100km is waste of gas.

If this theory is correct, Mitsubishi Engineer should have been acknowledged when they designed PHEV. So, the next step we have to think about is why Mitsubishi Engineers added Charge mode in circuit in spite of bad impact of gas mileage.

I strongly believe that charge mode has different purpose. It is only for external use of battery. It charges battery only with 3.2 litters when idling. And it generates 13.8kwh. So, we have to use this battery for power source of camping equipment and emergency power supply. For the same concept, they have CHAdeMO Bidirectional port in the car.

Before I write this post, I was wondering why Outlander PHEV has CHAdeMO port, while most of the other cars in US doesn't. CHAdeMO is only for High Voltage Fast charging. It is useful to charge 80kwh battery, but useless for 13.8kwh battery, and even more no need for PHEV cars. No PHEV car owner want to waste time to find CHAdeMO charging point for fast charging. Based on this consideration, CHAdeMO port is no use at all.

But come to think of it, Mitsubishi started with that concept since 2013 and they just keep it, disregarding Charge Mode and CHAdeMO are useless now a days in US. Removing from the circuit is more expensive and troublesome in production than just keep it in there. And make us to believe that Mitsubishi car is more functional then other PHEV by offering charge mode. Don't be fooled by Mitsubishi's looking down us. Those are useless function. Neither helping gas mileage nor having any other purpose because they do not provide any other usages.

Make the matter worse, they ask us pay $6k more if we want to use this circuit properly. That is 120V AC 1500W outlet. Remember that without this option, there is no need of charge mode.

When looking at Hyundai EV cars, many models need only J1772 discharging adapter($99 in Amazon) to use battery for camping and emergency home power supply. It is so called V2L. With 80kwh battery, 20kwh for full home use for emergency, it lasts 4 days, If we use limited use as 10kwh per day, it will last 8 days. (Compare 10kwh for 30 days is 300kwh, which is usual medium house monthly bill). If power down lasts more than 8 days, we have to keep battery level to make nearest Charging port for charge.

When we connect discharging cable to j1772 charging port, the computer inside ask us whether we want discharge. Don't forget that battery safety is perfectly controlled by BMS.

I will take any newer knowledge when you provide here
 
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I am still updating my knowledge about PHEV and Hybrid through the postings here. There looks lots of professionals here.

By the way, trex claims that it consumes 3.2 liter to charge the battery from bottom to top by idling the car. This is same claim from Mitsubishi Salesman on You Tube.

On the contrary, martinh claims "No Way". It will be consumed 5 liters to charge 10 kwh while driving the car in 100km/h. According to his calculation. Detailed calculation is in martinh thread.

If I combine 2 different claims, idling is lowest fuel efficient but high efficient on generator. High speed in ICE has it most high fuel efficiency because high RPM has more power to move the car. If it shares the power to generator, it will lose the efficiency of torque. So, need more gas for generator.

When I did my own calculation based on SDP24's actual driving 1000km, The result is that consume 6 liters for charging 13.8kWh.
Details of MY calculation:
First 500km = EV 38km + Hybrid 462km Consuming 36 Liters = 7.8 liter/100 km.
Second 500km = EV 25km(2/3 Battery) + 38km after full charge during driving = 63km. Hybrid 437km consuming 42 liters =9.7 liter/100 km.
It consume 6 liters more when it is on the way back. This 6 liter is used for charging battery which added 38k miles on EV driving. 6 liters for charging 13.8kwh. This calculation is almost same as martinh's theoretical calculation, 5 liter to charge 10kwh.

So the number shows that charge battery in charge mode when the car has speed of 100km is waste of gas.

If this theory is correct, Mitsubishi Engineer should have been acknowledged when they designed PHEV. So, the next step we have to think about is why Mitsubishi Engineers added Charge mode in circuit in spite of bad impact of gas mileage.

I strongly believe that charge mode has different purpose. It is only for external use of battery. It charges battery only with 3.2 litters when idling. And it generates 13.8kwh. So, we have to use this battery for power source of camping equipment and emergency power supply. For the same concept, they have CHAdeMO Bidirectional port in the car.

Before I write this post, I was wondering why Outlander PHEV has CHAdeMO port, while most of the other cars in US doesn't. CHAdeMO is only for High Voltage Fast charging. It is useful to charge 80kwh battery, but useless for 13.8kwh battery, and even more no need for PHEV cars. No PHEV car owner want to waste time to find CHAdeMO charging point for fast charging. Based on this consideration, CHAdeMO port is no use at all.

But come to think of it, Mitsubishi started with that concept since 2013 and they just keep it, disregarding Charge Mode and CHAdeMO are useless now a days in US. Removing from the circuit is more expensive and troublesome in production than just keep it in there. And make us to believe that Mitsubishi car is more functional then other PHEV by offering charge mode. Don't be fooled by Mitsubishi's looking down us. Those are useless function. Neither helping gas mileage nor having any other purpose because they do not provide any other usages.

Make the matter worse, they ask us pay $6k more if we want to use this circuit properly. That is 120V AC 1500W outlet. Remember that without this option, there is no need of charge mode.

When looking at Hyundai EV cars, many models need only J1772 discharging adapter($99 in Amazon) to use battery for camping and emergency home power supply. It is so called V2L. With 80kwh battery, 20kwh for full home use for emergency, it lasts 4 days, If we use limited use as 10kwh per day, it will last 8 days. (Compare 10kwh for 30 days is 300kwh, which is usual medium house monthly bill). If power down lasts more than 8 days, we have to keep battery level to make nearest Charging port for charge.

When we connect discharging cable to j1772 charging port, the computer inside ask us whether we want discharge. Don't forget that battery safety is perfectly controlled by BMS.

I will take any newer knowledge when you provide here
I wouldn’t use my figures exactly for calculations like that. I just posted them as anecdotal information.
I left with a flat battery , so it was hybrid the whole 500km.
Also , on the way back it was crazy windy, which as mentioned, I don’t know how much that affected the 9.7 figure.

But I definately agree, the charge mode wasn’t designed to charge while driving. It’s more for camping, or emergency power
 
I wouldn’t use my figures exactly for calculations like that. I just posted them as anecdotal information.
I left with a flat battery , so it was hybrid the whole 500km.
Also , on the way back it was crazy windy, which as mentioned, I don’t know how much that affected the 9.7 figure.

But I definately agree, the charge mode wasn’t designed to charge while driving. It’s more for camping, or emergency power
Well understand.
Sorry for using your figure for calculation.
I deleted calculation Part in my post.
 
It should be obvious to anyone that the car cannot decide the most efficient mode as it knows nothing about the upcoming journey (even if you use the satnav, it's completely independent of the drivetrain). Therefore the driver has to use the different modes for best efficiency.


It would be daft to use the battery at high speed when it would be rapidly depleted, just as it's daft to have the engine running during in a traffic jam.
 
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