By -5C the PHEV is not a PHEV any more...

[PolishPilot]

Not only the well discussed problem with ICE starting to heat the cabin,
but the ICE seems to keep running the wheels and later charging the battery
even when almost full, so there is no regen braking at all.

Today was driving 10km by -5C and hand almost no regen
in the city and no battery use whatsoever.
Pure ICE car with over 11 l/km fuel consumption!

It looks like the cold battery cannot deliver enough power to the wheels
so ICE has to run all the time?

So it is not a problem of cabin temperature but battery temperature.

I tested yesterday, fresh charged battery, probably still warm from
charging performed normally, the ICE ran just until the cabin heated up.

Also today, after 10km, when the battery eventually started
delivering power and charge level dropped a little, regen started
but just few kW. Gradually, after several regen and EV drive periods
the battery probably warmed up and after app. 15 km
everything was more or less back to normal.

Any one noticed the same?

I am deeply frustrated!

What will happen by -20C?

Will it become pure serial ICE car, like a train diesel-electric locomotive?
(but not a diesel, unfortunately)

 

[PolishPilot]

Found a post by Snowball on another thread:

This morning, +1dgC, preheat 10mn, ICE kicks in at start and runs for 2km an it also kicks in frequenty for the rest of the trip. Total trip 5,5km, 100% batt at start and almost no use of batt for the whole trip.
Annoying, ICE should have been disabled when pressing eco button otherwise we will use petrol even on short trips.

Very much my concern. Seems to confirm my observations.
Even with warm car, but cold baterry, the ICE runs all the time on short trip.

Further:

After this mornings trip I put the PHEV in my garage and topped up the battery to be ready for this evenings trip to my daughter. This is a total distance of 44km. 4km on motorway, 110km/h.
I preheated twice and drove off. Same temperature conditions. ICE started for a few seconds when I drove on to the motorway.. Eco button not activated.
It was almost 5 h between the trips so I would have thought that the ICE had cooled down by this.

Very much confirms my observation, it is a battery temperature issue,
not necessarily the cabin heat issue.
After 5h charging (topping up), the battery was warm, not only the the car itself,
after preheating.
It was enough to stop the ICE from running.

 

[anko]

Dunno about -5, but this morning, it was +1 at our place. Car had been outside the whole night and was charged yesterday evening. This morning, I preheated 10 minutes and let it sit there for about 5 more minutes (plugged in), before I drove off (not plugged in :lol: ).

I had no issues keeping the engine off. Regen was pretty normal, kicking in after a few kilometers. I got to my office location (26 km) with 7 km EV range left. That is not a whole lot, but stll, without using the engine. Of course, I didn't turn on the heater, otherwise for sure it would have started.

 

[jaapv]

The battery has its own heating system...Li-Ion batteries are pretty much dead if the core temperature drops under 0 C.

 

[PolishPilot]

The battery has its own heating system...Li-Ion batteries are pretty much dead if the core temperature drops under 0 C.

Jaapv, how does the system work?
Electric, coolant?

Today -7C.

Will check and report.

Can it be that my battery or battery heating system is broken?

 

[jaapv]

Not only the well discussed problem with ICE starting to heat the cabin,
but the ICE seems to keep running the wheels and later charging the battery
even when almost full, so there is no regen braking at all.

Today was driving 10km by -5C and hand almost no regen
in the city and no battery use whatsoever.
Pure ICE car with over 11 l/km fuel consumption!

It looks like the cold battery cannot deliver enough power to the wheels
so ICE has to run all the time?

So it is not a problem of cabin temperature but battery temperature.

I tested yesterday, fresh charged battery, probably still warm from
charging performed normally, the ICE ran just until the cabin heated up.

Also today, after 10km, when the battery eventually started
delivering power and charge level dropped a little, regen started
but just few kW. Gradually, after several regen and EV drive periods
the battery probably warmed up and after app. 15 km
everything was more or less back to normal.

Any one noticed the same?

I am deeply frustrated!

What will happen by -20C?

Will it become pure serial ICE car, like a train diesel-electric locomotive?
(but not a diesel, unfortunately)

10 KM is too short to draw conclusions.
I do 23 Km to work and I see the consumption running down from 3.5 Km/L to 28 Km/L in the morrning and 50 Km/L in the evening.
Don't forget that the running of the ICE is not just to give the driver warm toes. Driving the car entails a number of short to very short start-stop cycles of the ICE. It is much better for engine life to heat up the oil in one go than in a number of short bursts.

 

[jaapv]

The battery has its own heating system...Li-Ion batteries are pretty much dead if the core temperature drops under 0 C.

Jaapv, how does the system work?
Electric, coolant?

Today -7C.

Will check and report.

Can it be that my battery or battery heating system is broken?

I would say electric.
I don't think it is broken. This is after all still a hybrid with auxiliary full electric power. All hybrids get less efficient as temperatures drop.

 

[PolishPilot]

10 KM is too short to draw conclusions.

This is not about conclusions, but about our routine daily use.
I purchased the PHEV with advertised 50km electric range.
I knew it is unrealistic, bot 30km was ok for me, because
we have 10km to the nearest town and 15km to big shoping center.

I have my office at home (farm) so the main use over the week is
my wife going shopping. About once a week we drive to Warsaw,
which is app. 30km one way, but we can recharge there.

In last 5 years I did 60.000 km with one of our cars, only following
the pattern described above, never a trip longer than 100km/day.

This was my assumption on buying the PHEV, I will drive for the next 5 years
60.000km using no petrol, so I will save 6.000 l fuel (the other car did 10l/100km),
worth app. €7.000.-. This justified the purchase of PHEV over CVT Diesel.
There are no subsidies for EV in Poland, so just this saving was supposed
to cover the difference in price.

Effectively, since September and warmer days I drove 5.700km, but the consumption
is 6 l/100km on average, far over the expected 0.0, or even the advertised 1,9l/100km.

I feel duped.

I do 23 Km to work and I see the consumption running down from 3.5 Km/L to 28 Km/L in the morrning and 50 Km/L in the evening.

As you see above, my driving pattern is different.
It is actually a perfect patter for an EV, but Mitsu decided otherwise.

Don't forget that the running of the ICE is not just to give the driver warm toes. Driving the car entails a number of short to very short start-stop cycles of the ICE. It is much better for engine life to heat up the oil in one go than in a number of short bursts.

All the discussion on ICE starting or not is futile.
I just dont't want the ICE to start at all!

There should be a simple button in Mitsu PHEV: "Pure EV".
Most of other makers have this option.

That's all what it is. I want to be able to make the decision,
I will heat the cabin slower, I will have less performance,
maybe 60kW, not 120kW, which is more than enough in city driving.
I have electric cabin and chair heating in my car, I can manage.

Now I feel like a moron in safety jacket with sleeves tight around, not able to
move as I wish. Mitsu knows better what is good for me!

 

[jaapv]

I found that setting the car to 15 degrees and switching off the A/C before turning it off, and in the morning hitting the ECO button as soon as it functions was pretty effective at taming the ICE. After a short while one can carefully start heating the cabin. Maybe this works as well in combination with pre-heat, I did not experiment.

 

[maby]

10 KM is too short to draw conclusions.

This is not about conclusions, but about our routine daily use.
I purchased the PHEV with advertised 50km electric range.
I knew it is unrealistic, bot 30km was ok for me, because
we have 10km to the nearest town and 15km to big shoping center.

I have my office at home (farm) so the main use over the week is
my wife going shopping. About once a week we drive to Warsaw,
which is app. 30km one way, but we can recharge there.

In last 5 years I did 60.000 km with one of our cars, only following
the pattern described above, never a trip longer than 100km/day.

This was my assumption on buying the PHEV, I will drive for the next 5 years
60.000km using no petrol, so I will save 6.000 l fuel (the other car did 10l/100km),
worth app. €7.000.-. This justified the purchase of PHEV over CVT Diesel.
There are no subsidies for EV in Poland, so just this saving was supposed
to cover the difference in price.

Effectively, since September and warmer days I drove 5.700km, but the consumption
is 6 l/100km on average, far over the expected 0.0, or even the advertised 1,9l/100km.

I feel duped.

I do 23 Km to work and I see the consumption running down from 3.5 Km/L to 28 Km/L in the morrning and 50 Km/L in the evening.

As you see above, my driving pattern is different.
It is actually a perfect patter for an EV, but Mitsu decided otherwise.

Don't forget that the running of the ICE is not just to give the driver warm toes. Driving the car entails a number of short to very short start-stop cycles of the ICE. It is much better for engine life to heat up the oil in one go than in a number of short bursts.

All the discussion on ICE starting or not is futile.
I just dont't want the ICE to start at all!

There should be a simple button in Mitsu PHEV: "Pure EV".
Most of other makers have this option.

That's all what it is. I want to be able to make the decision,
I will heat the cabin slower, I will have less performance,
maybe 60kW, not 120kW, which is more than enough in city driving.
I have electric cabin and chair heating in my car, I can manage.

Now I feel like a moron in safety jacket with sleeves tight around, not able to
move as I wish. Mitsu knows better what is good for me!

I'm afraid that you are inventing a requirement that the designers did not work to. It is a hybrid, not an EV - and it burns petrol when the designers decided that was the appropriate thing to do - sorry. You will find no statement in the Mitsubishi documentation that it will never burn petrol while there is charge left in the battery.

If you asked the question of the dealer and were misled, return the car and insist on a refund; otherwise, I'm afraid you will have to accept the design as-is.

 

[jaapv]

This is not about conclusions, but about our routine daily use.

I'm afraid not, as you are drawing conclusions from the published figures
Those are based on the mandatory test cycle as defined by the European Union. All car manufacturers must abide by it.
That means that the resulting figures are only useful for a comparison between different cars, but cannot be applied to routine daily use.
The real- life results depend on the way one uses the car -any car-, as you are discovering.

 

[maby]

This is not about conclusions, but about our routine daily use.

I'm afraid not, as you are drawing conclusions from the published figures
Those are based on the mandatory test cycle as defined by the European Union. All car manufacturers must abide by it.
That means that the resulting figures are only useful for a comparison between different cars, but cannot be applied to routine daily use.
The real- life results depend on the way one uses the car -any car-, as you are discovering.

It is also unfortunately the case, as has been pointed out before, that the mandatory test cycle was designed before the advent of hybrid vehicles and strongly favours them. It assumes that the fuel economy of the vehicle is pretty much constant once the engine has warmed up, so it does not require the vehicle to travel long distances. Hybrids are less dependant on warming up and can complete most, if not all, the test cycle on battery. Also, I don't think the test cycle considers the difference in performance between warm and cold conditions. All cars will perform worse in the cold, but hybrids seem to suffer more than conventional cars.

I believe that the standard EU test cycle is around 20 miles long. If it were 100 miles long, the Outlander would score far less well than it currently does.

 

[Ozukus]

Even for a GX3h that you can't preheat with electric the car will need to consume about 0.3 of a gallon to get the engine to a decent operating temperature and then use about 0.2 of a gallon in idle mode to add heat to the vehicle.

so if I was doing a trip of 25 miles that was going to take me an hour on an extremely cold day with the temperature set high then I'd probably consume about half a gallon of fuel assuming my electric range supported the 25 mile distance and therefore be consuming fuel at a rate of 50mpg.

Naturally if I lowered the temperature in the car it would consume less as the engine wouldn't need to stay on all the time as it could use residual heat to warm the car.

This is the rub of these style vehicles over the winter period however the usage needs to be gauged over the long term, i.e. 12 months, so it has been balanced across all conditions.

PolishPilots figures do seem to be a bit extreme though so do wonder whether there is a problem with his vehicle.

 

[maby]

...

PolishPilots figures do seem to be a bit extreme though so do wonder whether there is a problem with his vehicle.

Poland is a very cold place in the winter and he is doing very short trips - I can well believe his figures. I do a couple of miles each morning taking my wife to the station in the dark - the fuel economy tends to show around 12mpg by the time I get home (this in in a GX4h) - apparently terrible - but it's only a couple of miles. If I do around 30 miles, possibly using "Save" for the first few miles to force the engine on and avoid wasting my battery in the heater, it will be showing --.-- mpg - over 100mpg.

 

[anko]

otherwise, I'm afraid you will have to accept the design as-is.

I understand your arguments from a content perspective. But why not work from the assumption that, together, we may be able to convince Mitsu that it would be a great idea to make this adjustment? My guess is, it is just software.

And let's not forget, we are more or less driving around in prototypes. Mitsu needs us to show them the proper way forward.

Same as the sticky ECO or LDW button. Why assume that it has to be a bug in order to be fixed?

 

[jaapv]

We also have to consider the perspective Mitsubishi might have. They may well be unwilling to let the vehicle operate without a properly warmed-up ICE. However, as soon as that goal is reached it should be possible to revert to mainly EV drive. It should only take reprogramming of the ECO button to do so.

 

[PolishPilot]

We also have to consider the perspective Mitsubishi might have. They may well be unwilling to let the vehicle operate without a properly warmed-up ICE. However, as soon as that goal is reached it should be possible to revert to mainly EV drive. It should only take reprogramming of the ECO button to do so.

What is the harm to the cold ICE if it not supposed to be used at all for next 30-40km,
which is the practical confirmed EV range?

It can stay cold when parked, it can stay cold when taken for a ride.
Why to heat it up, when it stays put.

Even Prius, with it's pathetic little electric engine and small battery has an EV button!
It can go just 60 km/h for 5km, but it obviously doesn't disturb anybody.

Why Mitsu has blocked this option for us?
I still find no good explanation.

BTW: there must be a reason for Outlander not being sold in the US.
AFAIK being able to drive for a certain distance as pure EV is a mandatory
option according to California rules, if you want to get the bonus.

 

[anko]

Well, at least with above 0 temperatures, the engine does not fire up unless you set the heater to 15,5 or floor it. This morning, I did 20 km without engine. Than I set the heater to 15,5 and immediately the engine fired. So, at ' our' current conditions, warming up the engine itself seems not a reason for firing it up ...

 

[IgorTr]

Hi.

Here is a technical answer why Li-based PHEV would not perfom well at low temperatures:

http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES 2013.pdf

2 points:
Li battery could not get\produce power at temperatures below -5C ( may be -10C) due rising of internal resistance
Li battery would be damaged if forced to get\produce power at such conditions due local overheating inside cells

What is why it works well if preheated or just afther charging.
So, "pure-EV" button is impossible on this car...and car will run as series electric transmission until battery is cold.
I think, that control electronic use self-heating by low currents to make this process faster.

UPD: Prius ignore EV-button at temperetures below 0C, and limit EV-speed at 10kph at 20C and below.
Normal EV mode is possible only if ICE warmed up completly ( > 60C now, and was at least once >70C since last power up)
This is all about lubrication scheme in Prius - oil pump runs from ice (in "gearbox"\PCU). So , oil shoud be in good condition before gears would handle the load whiout pump.
Prius battery is Ni-MH - all problems with perfomance are the same as with Li battery, but somewhere near -40C
Prius battery reports its condition to system CAN-bus, so its easy to see what is going on: 2 parameters are interesting - Allowed charge and Allowed discharge.
Allowed discharge is usualy near 23..25kW under normal conditions, and the lowwet value i saw was 6kW at -32C.

 

[anko]

Even Prius, with it's pathetic little electric engine and small battery has an EV button!

Let's be careful, not to ask for an "EV button". Mitsu interprets "EV button" as a Limited Driving Capability (not engage the engine when you purposely or accidentally floor it) and think that not having all power available in an emergency situation is a liability risk.

Let's ask for ECO+ (as in: ECO + no engine forgetting purposes).