Bugs and odd decisions in the Outlander PHEV

[elm70]

... and of course, they do already have a suitable DC-DC step-down conveter already fitted to the vehicle, which is used to charge up the chunk of lead in the boot from the LiIon battery. For the life of me, I cannot understand why vehicle manufacturers (not just Mitsubishi) spend so much time and effort shedding weight from cars, only to then stick 20kg of lead in there to lug around.

Right ... which in my case does not look to be perfect .. I see this DC-DC push up to 14.7V on my PHEV 12V power line (I have a little temperature and voltage sensor on the 12V socket)

It is hard to get what was the decision to have this LeadAcid battery .. for sure is a cheap decision .. but the reasoning is quite mysterious

Since my DC-DC charge push the LeadAcid Battery at 14.7V ... I can't even exchange the heavy LeadAcid with a lighter 4S LiFe battery designed to replace the car battery (actually I see only one reseller in US for these special batteries)

In theory a 12V car battery should not be charged over 14.4V ... my "rc hobby" multi charger does even charge 12V LeadAcid topping up at 13.7V

 

[elm70]

Well, I do have 400 V three phase/ 45A in my house, quite a few private houses have, either for the cooking range or for the sauna, or both. The problem with fitting a CHAdeMo charger is that these cost thousands of Euros.

Me too, since I have electric heating at home, I have ~20kw contract and 3phase too. .. with double tariff (night is half price per kwh compared to day) .. less then 0.1 Eur per 1kwh in the night, which should be quite low per the europe standards

CHAdeMo, is a DC charging, which delegate the charging process to external source, car does only monitor that is all looking fine and eventually cut the connection to the battery if it sense something abnormal. This is why it is very expensive .. it has AC-DC, and high amp to be controller

J1772 is very simple .. it is more a joke ... it is just a 220v power line, with a control protocol (useless in my book), since the charger is inside the car ... so select 6/10/16/32A on J1772, is just a signal to request this charge, and then is the on board charger that is in control to convert 220AV into 300V DC with requested Amps ... (a normal 220v plug, and a switch on the car would have done same with a fraction of the cost .. and having a normal plug would make it more "portable")

I don't see the point to have a control unit outside .. for "monitor" the 220V supply ... and this useless unit cost even over 300USD .. amazing how car industry build up useless expensive "gadget".

 

[jaapv]

It is not useless, as it is a communication unit making sure that the line is only powered up when the car demands electricity, a safety measure for outdoor use of the car connecting side, and it is a power limiter, restricting the consumption to 10A, as in many countries the maximum output of domestic outlets is less than the 16A the car can draw.
It is in fact a mobile charging station.( Connecting the car to a fixed charger station requires a Mennekes type2-type1 cable without external box.)
It comes included with the car, so no extra 300 Euro.
If they would have included a charging station (i.e. the contents of the box) in the car there would have had to be a third plug under the flap, making it even larger and unstable or a third flap.

Many users have a subsidized charger at home, although subsidies are being drastically reduced by now.

 

[anko]

[It is hard to get what was the decision to have this LeadAcid battery .. for sure is a cheap decision .. but the reasoning is quite mysterious

What is mysterious about "it is cheap"? :mrgreen:

 

[jaapv]

:lol: !

ICE does not need 12V battery for start up
only to then stick 20kg of lead in there to lug around.

I do not know what they use for batteries in Poland, but that little thing in the back of the PHEV cannot be more than a couple of KGs.

Not more than you yourself will add after a few nice restaurant meals. :twisted:

 

[anko]

I don't see the point to have a control unit outside .. for "monitor" the 220V supply ... and this useless unit cost even over 300USD .. amazing how car industry build up useless expensive "gadget".

That seems a bit off topic

 

[elm70]

I do not know what they use for batteries in Poland, but that little thing in the back of the PHEV cannot be more than a couple of KGs.

Not more than you yourself will add after a few nice restaurant meals. :twisted:

Have you seen it .. do you have a photo of it ?

I can only spot a fraction of this battery .. to me, it is looking a 40 or 50 AH battery to me .. so ~20Kg

Adding weight, and self discharge .. that cause to have issue if the car is parked longer then 3 months ... LiIon battery can be unused for years and have almost no relevant self discharge ...

Anyhow .. it is just a detail .. I'm quite sure Tesla don't have LeadAcid battery in their cars .. nor Konizangs

 

[jaapv]

Maybe not, but the Tesla is a pure EV vehicle, not comparable. The Prius has an auxiliary 12V battery. Afaik most if not all hybrids have.\
Edit: just looked it up, the Tesla has a 12V lead-acid battery as well.

 

[ian4x4]

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't the Lead Acid type battery there to provide a safe means of control of the volatile Lithium battery.
You need a bit of stability somewhere when things go wrong.
In my experience the worse thing that happens to a lead acid battery is acid spillage if seriously overcharged, I have yet to hear of one catching fire.

 

[jaapv]

I think there are a few things that one should bear in mind. Mitsubishi has been working on this car since before 2000. The original Outlander was designed with the express purpose of electrifying it in the future.

I am sure that many of the points raised have been subject of extensive deliberations before the decisions were made. The MiEV was developed to evaluate the feasibility of an electric vehicle in the real world.
Add that to the fact that this is not just a vehicle manufacturer, but part of a huge conglomerate which is worldleading in sectors like aviation, shipbuilding, military equipment, space technology, etc. ,all expertise of which the car division could make use.

So us driving and using the car for a few weeks or even years can probably add not too much that hasn't been considered already.

 

[maby]

Maybe I am wrong, but isn't the Lead Acid type battery there to provide a safe means of control of the volatile Lithium battery.
You need a bit of stability somewhere when things go wrong.
In my experience the worse thing that happens to a lead acid battery is acid spillage if seriously overcharged, I have yet to hear of one catching fire.

Seems to me that it is simply there to protect the traction battery. A big LiIon battery is an expensive commodity and you don't want it damaged by over-discharging it. The security system and keyless entry is going to draw some current and the designers can't assume that the PHEV is always going to be close to fully charged when it is parked. They go to some trouble to ensure that the traction battery never drops below something like 20% in normal operation in order to maximise life expectancy - they don't want you to park the car with minimum charge in the battery, then leave it for several weeks with the systems dragging the charge level down towards the point where the battery is permanently damaged.

 

[elm70]

I think there are a few things that one should bear in mind. Mitsubishi has been working on this car since before 2000. The original Outlander was designed with the express purpose of electrifying it in the future.

I am sure that many of the points raised have been subject of extensive deliberations before the decisions were made. The MiEV was developed to evaluate the feasibility of an electric vehicle in the real world.
Add that to the fact that this is not just a vehicle manufacturer, but part of a huge conglomerate which is worldleading in sectors like aviation, shipbuilding, military equipment, space technology, etc. ,all expertise of which the car division could make use.

So us driving and using the car for a few weeks or even years can probably add not too much that hasn't been considered already.

I don't agree

People that work on the same project for long time, may ignore all the time some aspects

Our view, since it does come from a different prospective can really bring valuable contribution if the Mitsubishi designers have the "humility" to listen to it

Back to the 12V Leas Acid

There are couple of aspect while this is still in use (but I guess soon it will disappear in next EV/Hybrid car generation) :
- Lead Acid Battery are very cheap, probably cost to the car manufacturer 10/20 USD
- Main battery (by law?, or by "standard" rule) should be disconnected from the car when car is OFF

The solution could be as simple as having 12V and 288V coming out of the main car battery pack ... 12V always available .. and 288V available only when car is ON .. and then car just need to cover the unbalance between the 3S LiPo battery (~12V) due to extra usage .. and in ON mode .. 288V get added to the 12V

A car in OFF mode has possibly a consumption no more then 5/10W ... so a 12V 40A should be good for 48/96h (2/4days)... which means it really need every day to be top up for avoid dead discharge

But .. cycling more often the 12V Lithium battery and use it as part of EV energy .. can reduce the life of these 3 cells compared to the other 77 .. which could be a bigger problem then not having to handle the 12V lead acid battery

In conclusion

Yes, it is a strange looking decision ... but it is cheap and an effective one ... so probably it is going to stay in the "market" for a while

If ... If the OFF power need by the car goes below 1W ... then it is possible to use more efficient alternative solutions ... reduce less to 1W in OFF mode does not sound impossible .. at the end all what is needed is to be able to switch on power on demand .. so only sensor, relays and radio .. need to be kept alive in OFF mode

 

[anko]

Our view, since it does come from a different prospective can really bring valuable contribution if the Mitsubishi designers have the "humility" to listen to it

I have to agree with this one. And I believe they do listen. Looking at the EV only button in the upcoming model, I am pretty sure this is a result from massive customer feedback over the last three years. Unfortunately, where bug fixes make it to existing cars, it seems revised design decisions only make it to new cars, ....

 

[jaapv]

Maybe, but one can assume that the car has been beta-tested extensively and the first 4000 were driven for half a year in Japan by normal users before the car even started to be exported. I'm sure that wasn't just done for fun.
Yes factories do gather user feedback and act upon it, but it still does not give those users any insight in the reasons behind design decisions.

Actually, I happen to know that manufacturers in general do read these forums - and have a good laugh from time to time

 

[elm70]

Maybe, but one can assume that the car has been beta-tested extensively and the first 4000 were driven for half a year in Japan by normal users before the car even started to be exported. I'm sure that wasn't just done for fun.
Yes factories do gather user feedback and act upon it, but it still does not give those users any insight in the reasons behind design decisions.

Actually, I happen to know that manufacturers in general do read these forums - and have a good laugh from time to time

Still something trivial and easy to add , like EV button .. available from the competitors .. it was missed .. till 2017 model .. so 3 years .. for a little but very important change.

4000 Japanese bring less value from 200 people taken from all the mayor markets world wide .. unless the aim is to only sell in Japan

Also .. I may guess these 4000 in Japan are possibly Mitsubishi employees ...

 

[elm70]

About MMCS graph bugs ...

I did change the kwh cost from 1$ to 0.1$ ... and now there is no more overflow in the graph

They must have some strange constrain in memory usage that cause graphs to "overflow" . and show a "flat picture"

Yes .. cosmetic bug ... not a show stopper .. but if you add function to show graphs in the MMCS ... cosmetic bugs are "critical" too

 

[jaapv]

Maybe, but one can assume that the car has been beta-tested extensively and the first 4000 were driven for half a year in Japan by normal users before the car even started to be exported. I'm sure that wasn't just done for fun.
Yes factories do gather user feedback and act upon it, but it still does not give those users any insight in the reasons behind design decisions.

Actually, I happen to know that manufacturers in general do read these forums - and have a good laugh from time to time

Still something trivial and easy to add , like EV button .. available from the competitors .. it was missed .. till 2017 model .. so 3 years .. for a little but very important change.

4000 Japanese bring less value from 200 people taken from all the mayor markets world wide .. unless the aim is to only sell in Japan

Also .. I may guess these 4000 in Japan are possibly Mitsubishi employees ...

No- the carrs were sold on the market. Anyhow, we still do not know the deliberations why the ECO button was not EV. Too obvious to miss when designing, there must have been a reason.

 

[Tipper]

I think it was because they had no real life experience of how the PHEV battery would stand up to its duty. Therefore they wanted the ICE to step in to support the battery as and when required. They were being ultra conservative so as to acheive the best reliability.
With 3 years of knowledge they now know that the battery can satisfy a higher performance demand and so the decision to add the EV button.
Of course if their competitors doing it may also have had an influence...

 

[ian4x4]

I agree with both jaapv and anko.

We must remember that a customer's role is to have wish lists which they communicate to the maker.
We can only guess of the complexities and responsibilities of successfully producing a PHEV.

I have long retired, but in electronics and computing you need a robust system of change control to guard against the unintended consequences of making hardware and software changes. The last thing you want is to make design alterations on a whim.

The costs of getting it wrong are colossal, the gain of pleasing your customers great.
This is a car transporting humans around, amongst other humans, not a virtual reality game.

Can we go back to making wish lists please, I am just as sure they are read, as I am that the makers have good reasons for their decisions
.

 

[jaapv]

I think it was because they had no real life experience of how the PHEV battery would stand up to its duty. Therefore they wanted the ICE to step in to support the battery as and when required. They were being ultra conservative so as to acheive the best reliability.
With 3 years of knowledge they now know that the battery can satisfy a higher performance demand and so the decision to add the EV button.
Of course if their competitors doing it may also have had an influence...

Actually I think that the castrated EV button was a consequence of the battery overheating problem they found in the first series. Possibly its function was downgraded from the original idea. -Pure speculation-