Anyone else using Premium fuel in the Phev?

[anko]

Maby,

Do you mean on a flat road at constant speed? I mean, at any speed above 40 mp/h (parallel mode speeds, that is) there are conditions under which driving requires a bit more power than the engine would normally produce at that speed, but not more than the engine can produce at that speed. Under these conditions, no energy goes into the battery and no energy is taken out of it. But typically, these are conditions under which the car needs to work a bit harder (acceleration, slight incline, towing, etc).

I also assume you are not referring to a situation where the battery is full?

Cheers, Anko

 

[Titan]

Try running on cruise control and slowly popping the speed up and down while watching the power flow - you will find a speed around 50mph where the display shows the engine running, driving the front wheels and no other power flow.

Because, due to the roads around me, I frequently drive around that speed, I have seen that often. The 40-50mph band is also the least favourite for the PHEV I feel, because I can usually clearly feel the ICE kick in quite noticeably if hovering around this speed

 

[maby]

Maby,

Do you mean on a flat road at constant speed? I mean, at any speed above 40 mp/h (parallel mode speeds, that is) there are conditions under which driving requires a bit more power than the engine would normally produce at that speed, but not more than the engine can produce at that speed. Under these conditions, no energy goes into the battery and no energy is taken out of it. But typically, these are conditions under which the car needs to work a bit harder (acceleration, slight incline, towing, etc).

I also assume you are not referring to a situation where the battery is full?

Cheers, Anko

Yes, flat road at constant speed - you will often find that point at which the car drops into front-wheel-drive petrol only mode. It will not generally stay like that for hours on end - variations in driving conditions tip it one way or the other, but I have seen ours run for multiple minutes at a time in that mode.

I don't think it is particularly dependent on the battery being full - though being in Charge mode or Save with the battery having depleted below the selected SOC will make it less likely, obviously. I don't think you are likely to see it without using the cruise control - you would be hard pressed to keep the demand on the drive train sufficiently constant.

 

[jaapv]

On a flat road, driving at 100kph it is possible with the PHEV operating in parallel hybrid mode to ease back on the accelerator and find the point where speed is maintained with no generator and no electric motors.

With all due respect, I have no idea what you mean. Best I can make of it is this: You are driving steady 100 km/h and the engine is propelling the car and charging the batteries. Than you gently lift the accelerator and instead of the car slowing down, the engine stops charging the battery? Is that what you mean? If so, next time I am in Australia, you will have to show me that trick :shock:

Try running on cruise control and slowly popping the speed up and down while watching the power flow - you will find a speed around 50mph where the display shows the engine running, driving the front wheels and no other power flow.

But, even if the electric motors are "idling", i.e. in a state between charging and delivering power with a zero energy balance, they are still connected and powered up.

 

[maby]

...

But, even if the electric motors are "idling", i.e. in a state between charging and delivering power with a zero energy balance, they are still connected and powered up.

There's no mechanical switches in the feed to the motors so, yes, they are still connected. Someone (you?) has suggested that even when the motors are not contributing to the drive, they are fed with a low level of power to ensure that they don't add drag.

 

[jaapv]

Probably Anko - but yes, that should be correct, they must be in a limbo between power and regen.

 

[anko]

Yes, flat road at constant speed - you will often find that point at which the car drops into front-wheel-drive petrol only mode. It will not generally stay like that for hours on end - variations in driving conditions tip it one way or the other, but I have seen ours run for multiple minutes at a time in that mode.

Awkward. That would mean you have found a way of transforming a hybrid car into a normal, yet very heavy, car. I would be alarmed if mine did that. Unless, like I said, I was accelerating, climbing a hill l or towing my caravan. Or unless my batteries were very, very full, as we all know it will at some point stop charging the battery (even in Save or Charge mode)

 

[anko]

Probably Anko - but yes, that should be correct, they must be in a limbo between power and regen.

But at most (if not all) speeds between say 65 km/h (approx. 40 mph) and 125 km/h (approx. 80 mph), it is not a fine line between charging the battery and discharging the battery, it is a zone. When power demand increases (for driving purposes) and keeps increasing, first charging stops (blue arrow from engine to battery dims). Then power output of the engine (and associated fuel consumption) increases. Until the engine reaches max output (for the given speed). Then discharging starts (blue arrow from battery to wheels lights up).

But with normal, constant driving on a flat road you should stay well below the point where charging stops. Look at the graph. At 40 mph the power reserve is at its biggest. So, there is no reason why it should not charge the battery.

Edit: I now realise your "limbo between power and regen" did apply to the state of the E-motors when they are "idling". That makes sense. They are either delivering power or regenning or right in-between these two modes. What I was referring to was the fact that, if you gradually increase power demand, they will be in this limbo state for some time and not instantly switch from regen to power mode.

 

[anko]

Try running on cruise control and slowly popping the speed up and down while watching the power flow - you will find a speed around 50mph where the display shows the engine running, driving the front wheels and no other power flow.

Because, due to the roads around me, I frequently drive around that speed, I have seen that often. The 40-50mph band is also the least favourite for the PHEV I feel, because I can usually clearly feel the ICE kick in quite noticeably if hovering around this speed

How do you mean, kick in? We were discussing behaviour of the car while in parallel mode.

 

[jaapv]

Probably Anko - but yes, that should be correct, they must be in a limbo between power and regen.

But at most (if not all) speeds between say 65 km/h (approx. 40 mph) and 125 km/h (approx. 80 mph), it is not a fine line between charging the battery and discharging the battery, it is a zone. When power demand increases (for driving purposes) and keeps increasing, first charging stops (blue arrow from engine to battery dims). Then power output of the engine (and associated fuel consumption) increases. Until the engine reaches max output (for the given speed). Then discharging starts (blue arrow from battery to wheels lights up).

But with normal, constant driving on a flat road you should stay well below the point where charging stops. Look at the graph. At 40 mph the power reserve is at its biggest. So, there is no reason why it should not charge the battery.

Edit: I now realise your "limbo between power and regen" did apply to the state of the E-motors when they are "idling". That makes sense. They are either delivering power or regenning or right in-between these two modes. What I was referring to was the fact that, if you gradually increase power demand, they will be in this limbo state for some time and not instantly switch from regen to power mode.

Yes, I agree, there is switching span there.

 

[Titan]

Try running on cruise control and slowly popping the speed up and down while watching the power flow - you will find a speed around 50mph where the display shows the engine running, driving the front wheels and no other power flow.

Because, due to the roads around me, I frequently drive around that speed, I have seen that often. The 40-50mph band is also the least favourite for the PHEV I feel, because I can usually clearly feel the ICE kick in quite noticeably if hovering around this speed

How do you mean, kick in? We were discussing behaviour of the car while in parallel mode.

It was an additional point I was making. Didn't mean to confuse. But on my 150mile drive back from Sussex today, I frequently noticed just the orange arrow, at speeds between 50 and 60mph. I would've taken a picture but I was driving

 

[gwatpe]

Once you have the instant petrol consumption being displayed at the same time the energy dash graphic is displayed, the zone of power at which the ICE is the only energy to wheels becomes clear. In the parallel hybrid mode, the PHEV does try and avoid battery operational use for loading or generating and makes up the power needs with changes in petrol consumption, like a normal car does. It is best seen when the car is travelling at a constant speed and the power needs change with subtle terrain changes. I think that the AUS speed limits are in sync with the operational power needs, coupled with generally less highway traffic, that allows the behavior of the PHEV to be seen. If the PHEV used less high octane petrol for the same speed, in a measured proportion, then the cost benefits could be assessed. As soon as the battery is involved with the driving, then calculations re petrol efficiency with say octane rating is difficult.

 

[anko]

How do you mean, kick in? We were discussing behaviour of the car while in parallel mode.

It was an additional point I was making. Didn't mean to confuse. But on my 150mile drive back from Sussex today, I frequently noticed just the orange arrow, at speeds between 50 and 60mph. I would've taken a picture but I was driving

Understood. I also frequently see just the orange arrow. But this is only during times when "above average power" is required for driving (acceleration, climbing, towing). As soon as the load is reduced, the blue arrow from engine to battery reappears.

Are you saying that at constant speed on a flat road, without towing a trailer and without fully topped up battery, you frequently see just the orange arrow?

 

[anko]

We are still talking about the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, aren't we?

Once you have the instant petrol consumption being displayed at the same time the energy dash graphic is displayed, the zone of power at which the ICE is the only energy to wheels becomes clear.

I use this configuration almost all the time (otherwise I get bored ). And yes, it does show. The upper boundary of the zone is obviously dictated by the amount of power the engine can deliver at the RPMs associated with your current speed. But it also becomes clear that the lower boundary of this zone is higher than the amount of power you need for driving on a flat rad, at constant speed, while not towing a caravan or such. The diagram I referred to also clearly shows this.

In the parallel hybrid mode, the PHEV does try and avoid battery operational use for loading or generating ...

Are you saying that the PHEV tries to mimic a normal car when in parallel hybrid mode? That doesn't make sense at all. I mean, everybody notices that under normal conditions the car switches back and forth between parallel drive and EV drive, all by itself. That is what "parallel hybrid drive" means, and it requires that the battery is topped up a bit during the parallel drive. It is the normal way of operation of the car between (approx.) 65 and 125 km/h.

... and makes up the power needs with changes in petrol consumption, like a normal car does. It is best seen when the car is travelling at a constant speed and the power needs change with subtle terrain changes.

Do you see this regardless of SOC? When it is cold in the morning, I might decide to engage Charge mode (to force generation of heat), even when the battery is still 80% or more full. Then I clearly see the behaviour you describe. My assessment of this is that, as the charge current from the generator to the battery is very much reduced to protect the battery from being overcharged (maybe even to 0), the car cannot play with the charge current in order to maintain speed over terrain changes. So, it must play with engine power output and hence fuel consumption. But the further I allow the SOC to drop, the higher but also the more constant the instant consumption becomes. My assessment: with lower SOC, both the engine output and the charge current are cranked up, allowing the car to play with the charge current in order to maintain speed (tov a certain extend, of course).

I still believe that attempts to maintain (very) high SOC all the time are defeating the purpose of the car, resulting in less efficiency.

 

[Titan]

Are you saying that at constant speed on a flat road, without towing a trailer and without fully topped up battery, you frequently see just the orange arrow?

Yes, just that, between 40 & 60mph.

 

[maby]

...
Are you saying that at constant speed on a flat road, without towing a trailer and without fully topped up battery, you frequently see just the orange arrow?

Frequently, yes - but not for long periods. I was doing a relatively long journey today on motorways with a battery at around 40% and the car set to "Save" - and, with this thread in mind, I was keeping an eye on the energy flows. It dropped into pure petrol mode quite often - staying in that state for 30 seconds up to a few minutes.

As an aside, with a reasonable amount of charge on-board, it really can move rather well. I was travelling on a relatively twisty rural road and caught up with a group of cyclists riding at around 30mph. I got to a reasonable length straight stretch and floored it - the result was a fairly impressive kick up the backside!

 

[anko]

Guys, I am totally puzzled. Mine doesn't do that. And, if I may add, I am glad it doesn't. Because IMHO it defeats the purpose of driving a hybrid car and carrying around batteries.

 

[maby]

I also see quite frequent periods of a few seconds of EV mode rear wheel drive only.

 

[greendwarf]

As an aside, with a reasonable amount of charge on-board, it really can move rather well. I was travelling on a relatively twisty rural road and caught up with a group of cyclists riding at around 30mph. I got to a reasonable length straight stretch and floored it - the result was a fairly impressive kick up the backside!

Had a couple of similar experiences and been surprised by both the "mid-range" acceleration and the ability of the handling to safely deal with this and the sudden associated steering moves.

 

[anko]

Have tried. Did about 180 km with Premium 98 gasoline. Fuel consumption was very nice (little over 11 liters per 100 km), but I did not seem to help me to maintain higher SOC while towing