2024 Outlander PHEV - Engine runs to burn old fuel.

[AndyInOz]

I'm also surprised at the assertion that this is new behaviour.

Mine was built in 2014 and does this.

Can anyone else comment on other year/models not having this built in?

 

[PHEV07]

Picked up my 2024 Oulander PHEV - GT, on Apr 8, 2024. Fuel tank was full, Drive Battery full and 11kms on the Odometer.

Drove 625 kms strictly in the city, charged about 8 times and was averaging 85 to 90 Kms on pure EV mode, charging to full when there was 5 or 6 kms left on battery.

This past Friday, after pushing EV and switching to ECO, with a full battery and ambient temp of 28'C, I saw message. Engine will not stop until 20 liters of fuel is added.

I guess computer wants me to use up my old gas, which is barely 1 month old. What gives?

Anyone find a work around I have 95% full tank. I want to drive in EV mode and not use the ICE.

Please help

 

[greendwarf]

Not at all.

This thread is about a PHEV that operates as a Hydrid, since Mitsubishi decided to force this Generation of Outlander PHEV to force the ICE to operate so as to use up old fuel until new fuel is added.

In the 2018-2022 this was not the case. In those years the ICE would be forced to take presidence only if the Drive Battery was depleted, Outside Temp was below a certain value, at times, when the HVAC was used and when the driver requested more power than the EV Motors could supply.

i have owned the previous generations, the 2018 with a 12 kWh Battery, the 2022 with 13.8kWh drive battery and the age of the fuel was never a parameter that required the exclusively running of the ICE so as to consume the old fuel

If I wanted an ICE vehicle I would have purchased one.

I upgraded to the 20kWh PHEV for allowing me the luxury of driving 85 to 90 kms per charge on EV Mode and the ability to use ICE when my battery was depleted.

What I did not expect was a PHEV to stop operating on EV Mode because the fuel was old. This was new to me and quite frankly a shock that some Engineer at Mitsubishi arbitrarily decided that every 90 days, the PHEV must operate as an ICE vehicleso as to Deplete the old fuel.

Many experts in field have declared that fuel can be is usable up to 1 year, so what gives with the Engineers at Mitsubishi????

Furthermore, if the tank on a 2024 PHEV has a Capacity of 56 liters, and we are forced to add at least 20 liters in order Stop running the ICE so we can start running in EV Mode again, it would mean that we can burn off 20 liters of old fuel, add 20 liters of "new" fuel to let the PHEV operate as intended in EV mode again.

But wait, ..... by adding 20 liters of "new" fuel to the remaining 36 liters of "old" fuel in the tank, does this fuel not get mixed to become dirty old fuel, again. So why are we being forced to deplete the old fuel again?

Makes absolute no sense me and quite frankly, quite idiotic, in my opinion.

So to summarize, I prefer to buy a PHEV over a full EV, because where I live we do not have a very good charging infrastructure and I did not want to buy an ICE.

I bought a PHEV that would allow me to drive in EV Mode like the previous generations of Outlander and 99% of other PHEVs on the Market and to not be forced to refuel with at least 20 liters so the car has "new fuel" to be able to run in EV Mode.

I hope that I have made myself clearer, as this thread was intended to bring to light a situation that was new and quite different to the overall operation of previous Outlander PHEV Generations.


To close this, I would like to add that as of 1 hr ago, I am back to being able to drive in EV Mode, again and now have 1/2 tank of gasoline in the tank.

I don't know about "later" generations but this was always a feature from the initial introduction and in 10 years of ownership I have only had this happen a couple of times. I'm baffled as to how someone can get so worked up over such a trivial issue!

 

[BruceHF]

While not experiencing any problems like these described I just want to add that conversations like this is invaluable and a learning experience. I value the input from all. Keep it up! Great stuff.

 

[BobK]

View attachment 1290

Sounds like you are assuming the gas was put in the day you got it. I'm guessing the countdown on the age of the gas started much early than when you received delivery of the vehicle. I would just burn off the old gas this once then see how it behaves going forward.
As others on the forum have mentioned, a PHEV is not just an electric car dragging around a combustion engine that can only used a couple of times a year. Combustion engines need to be run regularly to maintain lubrication and the current fuel being sold degrades (with consequences for the engine) after 3 months. A PHEV can be run to significantly reduce emissions, but it has its limits. To my mind, Mitsubishi is doing a reasonable job making sure you work within them to prolong the life of the car. I expect to have a good long life out of my 2023, but I'm hoping technology, costs and infrastructure will progess enough over time that my next car can be a BEV.

 

[themaiz]

Combustion engines need to be run regularly to maintain lubrication

I've been reading up on this a bit in the last weeks, because I've developed an eye problem and I can't drive my car at all... so only four months after purchase it's been effectively "on blocks" in the garage. Some useful articles in the Sydney Morning Herald indicate that the oil isn't going to be a problem
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/do-modern-cars-really-need-to-be-warmed-up/
but degradation on other parts might be
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/do-i-have-to-service-my-car-every-year/

I'm more concerned that the last tank full of fuel was just before I was forced to stop driving, and that's E10 (ethanol 10%). We will have to take it on a trip next week I think, and burn some/all of that off.

 

[AndyInOz]

Note that the PHEV has ceramic coated bearings to reduce the impact of the infrequent engine starts.

 

[kpetrov]

Sorry for the late replay but I got an used Volt and I am playing with it now.

Yea, the easiest way is to disconnect the fuel line somewhere and run the fuel pump by shorting the fuel pump relay.

 

[PHEV07]

Sounds like you are assuming the gas was put in the day you got it. I'm guessing the countdown on the age of the gas started much early than when you received delivery of the vehicle. I would just burn off the old gas this once then see how it behaves going forward.
As others on the forum have mentioned, a PHEV is not just an electric car dragging around a combustion engine that can only used a couple of times a year. Combustion engines need to be run regularly to maintain lubrication and the current fuel being sold degrades (with consequences for the engine) after 3 months. A PHEV can be run to significantly reduce emissions, but it has its limits. To my mind, Mitsubishi is doing a reasonable job making sure you work within them to prolong the life of the car. I expect to have a good long life out of my 2023, but I'm hoping technology, costs and infrastructure will progess enough over time that my next car can be a BEV.

Thank you for your input.

Actually, I was not assuming anything and still am not.

I started this thread because this message indicating the requirement to delete old fuel before the Eng Stops is new to me.

This never happened to the 2018 and 2022 Outlander PHEV that I had previously leased and drove. Never was this message ever displayed in the previous models, never.

On occasion, the Engine did start, I had assumed to have the Engine operate to lubricate the engine. But the Engine only ran for a few minutes and the computer would then allow using car in EV Mode again. But in this New Generation, the Computer "Forces the Engine to run until at least 20 lts of fuel is added" It really does not better if the fuel added is new from a pump or old fuel from gas can that has been stored for months or years. Do any of you really, think that makes sense, when you really think about it?

I believe that I am starting to understand what the Mitsubishing Engineers were trying to accomplish and thru some of the more constructive comments posted in this Thread, it is looking like the Computer may be merely programmed (perhaps every 90 days) to Force the Engine to run and to stay running until it registers that at least 20 liters of fuel gas been added but in reality it will never know if the fuel being added is new fuel or old, really, really old fuel.

I hope that some of you readers are now starting to understand my surprise and concern about this change in being "Forced" to operate my PHEV in Hybrid mode only.

As I had mentioned before I had no intention of buying or leasing an ICE only or Hydrid only vehicle. But perhaps unintentionally Mitsubishi has changed how this New Generation PHEV Functions.

I have kept a daily log of my driving, since I started driving the PHEV since Feb 18, 2018, except when I am away to vacation in Mexico in mid January for 30 days. (I do expect some new surprises with my 2024 PHEV because we do get temps in the low -30'C range for several weeks.

Since I have no garage and park my vehicle outside, I am wondering how many times I may be stranded this coming Winter, since this New Generation PHEV does not have a Battery Managing System for cold Temps, since Heat Pumps do not operate at Temps below -20' and from all I have been reading, when the Drive Battery reaches Temps below -24'C. The computer prevents the New Generation PHEV from starting up. Please note that I am referring to the Drive Battery temperature, not the ambient temperature. Appatently when the Drive Battery temperature gets to -24'C or lower, the Car will not turn on and Engine cannot be started even when plugged in with a Charge Cable or an Engine Block Heater. (This info is not easlily found in the Manual) But many ppl driving in cold weather parts of USA and Canada have reported tgat they were not able to use their vehicles in extremely Cold Weather, this Winter and last Winter, with tge New Generation PHEV.

Yes I know some of you may want to reply that ICE vehicles also freeze up, but please do not bother with those comments.

Where I live we occasionally get temps to below -30'C and at times -40C and I was never stranded when driving my 2018 or 2022 Outlander PHEVs because in these Models of PHEV, resistive heating was used and the battery management system was able to keep the Drive Battery warm. It actually heated the battery when Battery temp dropped below -18'C.

NOOOOO. This new Generation PHEV has no Battery Management Heating provision to prevent the Dive Battery from going below -24'C. So when it does we may the proud owners of frozen Bricks.

More on this when Winter Arrives. Good thing is that I still have at least 7 months of non freezing temperatures to Enjoy my New Generation PHEV and hopefully not run across any other issues.

But truly, I do believe that this 2024 Oulander is a great vehicle and I do marvel at the fact that I am getting 85 to 95 kms in EV only Mode and have no range anxiety because I have an ICE to take me to further destinations.

Yes, you read that right I get 85 to 95 Kms in EV Mode and all while driving in the City ..... A lot more than Mitsubishi advertises. (Why is Mitsubishi doing this). This again makes no sense to me, since this is a great vehicle, except of course for the few issues that I have and do plan on reporting if I find any.

Folks please try to remember that the purpose of this Thread was to ask questions on an issue I had never been confronted with before and to try to understand why Mitsubishi decided to do what they did when Programing some of the Paramater Requirements that they dreamed up.

 

[littlescrote]

Thank you for your input.

Actually, I was not assuming anything and still am not.

I started this thread because this message indicating the requirement to delete old fuel before the Eng Stops is new to me.

This never happened to the 2018 and 2022 Outlander PHEV that I had previously leased and drove. Never was this message ever displayed in the previous models, never.

On occasion, the Engine did start, I had assumed to have the Engine operate to lubricate the engine. But the Engine only ran for a few minutes and the computer would then allow using car in EV Mode again. But in this New Generation, the Computer "Forces the Engine to run until at least 20 lts of fuel is added" It really does not better if the fuel added is new from a pump or old fuel from gas can that has been stored for months or years. Do any of you really, think that makes sense, when you really think about it?

I believe that I am starting to understand what the Mitsubishing Engineers were trying to accomplish and thru some of the more constructive comments posted in this Thread, it is looking like the Computer may be merely programmed (perhaps every 90 days) to Force the Engine to run and to stay running until it registers that at least 20 liters of fuel gas been added but in reality it will never know if the fuel being added is new fuel or old, really, really old fuel.

I hope that some of you readers are now starting to understand my surprise and concern about this change in being "Forced" to operate my PHEV in Hybrid mode only.

As I had mentioned before I had no intention of buying or leasing an ICE only or Hydrid only vehicle. But perhaps unintentionally Mitsubishi has changed how this New Generation PHEV Functions.

I have kept a daily log of my driving, since I started driving the PHEV since Feb 18, 2018, except when I am away to vacation in Mexico in mid January for 30 days. (I do expect some new surprises with my 2024 PHEV because we do get temps in the low -30'C range for several weeks.

Since I have no garage and park my vehicle outside, I am wondering how many times I may be stranded this coming Winter, since this New Generation PHEV does not have a Battery Managing System for cold Temps, since Heat Pumps do not operate at Temps below -20' and from all I have been reading, when the Drive Battery reaches Temps below -24'C. The computer prevents the New Generation PHEV from starting up. Please note that I am referring to the Drive Battery temperature, not the ambient temperature. Appatently when the Drive Battery temperature gets to -24'C or lower, the Car will not turn on and Engine cannot be started even when plugged in with a Charge Cable or an Engine Block Heater. (This info is not easlily found in the Manual) But many ppl driving in cold weather parts of USA and Canada have reported tgat they were not able to use their vehicles in extremely Cold Weather, this Winter and last Winter, with tge New Generation PHEV.

Yes I know some of you may want to reply that ICE vehicles also freeze up, but please do not bother with those comments.

Where I live we occasionally get temps to below -30'C and at times -40C and I was never stranded when driving my 2018 or 2022 Outlander PHEVs because in these Models of PHEV, resistive heating was used and the battery management system was able to keep the Drive Battery warm. It actually heated the battery when Battery temp dropped below -18'C.

NOOOOO. This new Generation PHEV has no Battery Management Heating provision to prevent the Dive Battery from going below -24'C. So when it does we may the proud owners of frozen Bricks.

More on this when Winter Arrives. Good thing is that I still have at least 7 months of non freezing temperatures to Enjoy my New Generation PHEV and hopefully not run across any other issues.

But truly, I do believe that this 2024 Oulander is a great vehicle and I do marvel at the fact that I am getting 85 to 95 kms in EV only Mode and have no range anxiety because I have an ICE to take me to further destinations.

Yes, you read that right I get 85 to 95 Kms in EV Mode and all while driving in the City ..... A lot more than Mitsubishi advertises. (Why is Mitsubishi doing this). This again makes no sense to me, since this is a great vehicle, except of course for the few issues that I have and do plan on reporting if I find any.

Folks please try to remember that the purpose of this Thread was to ask questions on an issue I had never been confronted with before and to try to understand why Mitsubishi decided to do what they did when Programing some of the Paramater Requirements that they dreamed up.

Yes, it's a simple 90 day timer, nothing more. More would require additional sensors, or doing complicated things like detecting early onset of knock etc.

I don't suppose the Mitsubishi engineers considered that people might be prepared to try and get around the message as they are probably assumed that people would use a hybrid as a hybrid and would expect to use enough petrol for it to rarely come up as an issue.

If you are getting this issue, I'd suggest you get out more. Go for a long drive to somewhere nice and go for a walk or a nice meal.

 

[AndyInOz]

I think it is slightly more complex that a simple timer.

In my case, I use sufficient fuel to prevent the system from triggering.

I've only seen that state about three times in nine years of ownership.

 

[HeliNurse]

Well that put me in my place!

 

[AndyInOz]

Mine just did an non commanded engine start due to outside temperature this morning.

The interior of the car was showing as 9° C and the 'desired temperature' on the dash was showing as 23° C.

Fired the car up and rolled out of the carport, battery only.

After closing the roller door and getting back in, I hit the 'AUTO' button on the climate control in the middle of the dashboard.

The engine immediately fired up (literally the same instant as me pushing the button) and kept running for about five minutes.

So... If you're not still getting the fuel message, that's probably the issue.

 

[kpetrov]

Old fuel burning is not new to the latest models nor to other brand PHEVs
My Volt has old fuel burning service mode and engine maintenance mode.
Well Outlander's engine maintenance mode is every day for no reason so...

 

[mellobob]

Mine just did an non commanded engine start due to outside temperature this morning.

The interior of the car was showing as 9° C and the 'desired temperature' on the dash was showing as 23° C.

Fired the car up and rolled out of the carport, battery only.

After closing the roller door and getting back in, I hit the 'AUTO' button on the climate control in the middle of the dashboard.

The engine immediately fired up (literally the same instant as me pushing the button) and kept running for about five minutes.

So... If you're not still getting the fuel message, that's probably the issue.

Where do you get the interior temp from? I'm assuming a non-installed thermometer?

 

[Lon12]

Since I have no garage and park my vehicle outside, I am wondering how many times I may be stranded this coming Winter, since this New Generation PHEV does not have a Battery Managing System for cold Temps, since Heat Pumps do not operate at Temps below -20' and from all I have been reading, when the Drive Battery reaches Temps below -24'C.

Just wanted to add that from what I've seen the Outlander heat pump has been programmed to turn off at exactly -15ºC. This is unique to this vehicle. My other EVs heat pumps worked fine below that temperature. My home heat pump will even run at -30ºC.

 

[winnipegboy]

In my model, that mode is triggered every 6 months, if I haven't consumed sufficient fuel during this time.

I suspect that newer models run that process every three months.

The vehicle goes into that mode to protect all the components of the fuel system from gumming, where stale fuel blocks injectors etc.

You could probably make it go away by disconnecting the power, but the risk you take is that you will end up with an unusable engine and a very expensive repair.

Personally, I don't try to second-guess the Mitsubishi engineers, because I'm not an engineer, and I don't have access to the data they used when making their decisions for maximising the life out of our hybrid cars.

Let the auto functions do their thing. If you are in EV mode, that's the best you can do to prioritize using the drive battery. Don't fret about the ICE running every once in a while. Enjoy the ride!

 

[AndyInOz]

Where do you get the interior temp from? I'm assuming a non-installed thermometer?

I was relying on the temperature display directly in front of the driver in the dashboard.

Now you mention it, it's probably showing the temperature from somewhere on the exterior of the vehicle.

This would explain why that temperature hadn't changed much before the engine shut itself down again.

 

[AndyInOz]

Let the auto functions do their thing. If you are in EV mode, that's the best you can do to prioritize using the drive battery. Don't fret about the ICE running every once in a while. Enjoy the ride!

I could not agree more.

I was merely providing an example of circumstances where the car software runs the engine.

 

[mellobob]

I was relying on the temperature display directly in front of the driver in the dashboard.

Now you mention it, it's probably showing the temperature from somewhere on the exterior of the vehicle.

This would explain why that temperature hadn't changed much before the engine shut itself down again.

Yup, the temp on the dash display is the exterior temp. I don't know where the sensor(s) is, but I find that they are pretty accurate. In the old days one could get a little, coin sized temp display which could be stuck on the dash to show the interior temp, but I've not seen one for years ... and I would like one.