Why is the level 2 charging time so slow?

[aceinc]

I have a 2023 Outlander PHEV. I have a Siemens level 2 charger at home. It is attached to a 30 Amp 240v circuit. Theoretically it should be able to provide 7.2 KW of charging. This should charge a 20KWH battery from 0% to 100% in less than 3 hours.

When I got home last night my electric gauge was at about 25%. Theoretically the vehicle should have charged in a little over 2 hours. It took around 6 hours. This would indicate it is only charging at around 2.4KW.

My previous Honda Clarity and my wife's Tesla Model 3 both charge at or near the rated power rating of the charger.

What is throttling the Outlander's charging speed?

Can this be adjusted?

 

[aceinc]

By way of example, our Tesla charges at 30 MPH. The Tesla averages 4.2 miles per KWH. This indicates it is charging at just over 7 KW using the Siemens charger.

 

[kenny256]

The speed of charging is determined by the On-Board Charger (OBC) not the EVSE max rate.

 

[aceinc]

The speed of charging is determined by the On-Board Charger (OBC) not the EVSE max rate.

Which begs the question, why would Mitsubishi put a 2.4 KW charger in the vehicle, when other companies use much higher capacity chargers?

 

[roussir]

Which begs the question, why would Mitsubishi put a 2.4 KW charger in the vehicle, when other companies use much higher capacity chargers?

Because typical application is for overnight charging, so the additional cost of the more powerful charger is not justified. AFAIK, all PHEVs out there have lower power chargers, except the top trim of the RAV4 Prime. And it is still inferior to the Outlander's Chademo, you only need to buy the $3k charger yourself to get the 9.6 kW DC fast charging.

(btw, "begs" is not the correct use in this case)

 

[kenny256]

Which begs the question, why would Mitsubishi put a 2.4 KW charger in the vehicle, when other companies use much higher capacity chargers?

Keep costs down as low as possible but still do the minimum task required?

 

[aceinc]

I traded my 2018 Honda Clarity which had a 7.2 KW onboard charger, which I never measured, but based on my memory, I never remember it charging more than a few hours on my Siemens charger.

The stated charge rate of the Outlander is 3.7KW, I am not sure whether this would have impacted my decision making when I purchased the vehicle, had I paid attention, but, I sure am not happy about it.

Why is it irksome?

Because when I take my car to work, I would like to be able to charge it from close to empty either before or after lunch to give others the chance to use the charger. Over night at my home the issue isn't that important. But at free public chargers, it is downright un-neighborly to sit on a charger for so long.

 

[aceinc]

Which begs the question, why would Mitsubishi put a 2.4 KW charger in the vehicle, when other companies use much higher capacity chargers?

Keep costs down as low as possible but still do the minimum task required?

Keep the costs down on a $50,000+ car? Perhaps a faster charger should have been an option.

 

[kpetrov]

It is not only to keep the cost down.
Fast charging those batteries doesn't bode well with them and their state of health.

 

[aceinc]

It is not only to keep the cost down.
Fast charging those batteries doesn't bode well with them and their state of health.

I am not sure of the difference, if any, between the battery chemistry of my 2018 Honda Clarity PHEV and my new 2023 Outlander PHEV, but I can say over the 4 years I owned the Honda, charging it exclusively at 7.2KW, there was no noticeable battery degradation. It would exceed 40 miles per charge whenever I called on it to.

One thing I would find interesting is the statistics on how many people/times the fast charger in a PHEV is used. My sense is that people who own PHEVs seldom use public chargers, let alone fast chargers. Again this is my experience and opinion. People who buy PHEVs I suspect do so in order to use free/home charging and would go to a gas station if they need go beyond the range of a charge.

If my sense is right, and it certainly is for me, then the fast charger in my 2023 Outlander is wasted weight and cost. Why would someone pay to get a 20 KWH charge (38 mile range) waiting 38 minutes to do so, when they can pull into a gas station and pump 10x the range in less than 5 minutes?

 

[roussir]

One thing I would find interesting is the statistics on how many people/times the fast charger in a PHEV is used. My sense is that people who own PHEVs seldom use public chargers, let alone fast chargers. Again this is my experience and opinion. People who buy PHEVs I suspect do so in order to use free/home charging and would go to a gas station if they need go beyond the range of a charge.

DC fast charging is substantially more expensive than using gas, so it does not make sense in more than one way. Even level 2 charging is more expensive in many cases. So, yes, it is intended for home charging. In fact, for a long time the official statistic was that people don't plug/charge their PHEVs at all, and drive them as hybrids, but that turned out to be based on a faulty study.

The DCFC plug is intended for V2H capability or opportunistic charging (e.g. I have a DCFC charger at work at nominal rates.)

If my sense is right, and it certainly is for me, then the fast charger in my 2023 Outlander is wasted weight and cost. Why would someone pay to get a 20 KWH charge (38 mile range) waiting 38 minutes to do so, when they can pull into a gas station and pump 10x the range in less than 5 minutes?

The DCFC capability is provided only by a receptacle, not a charger, so there is no added weight and not much added cost. Increasing the capacity of the on-board AC charger though, for the level 2 charging, is probably a substantial increase in both.

 

[AndyInOz]

It is not only to keep the cost down.
Fast charging those batteries doesn't bode well with them and their state of health.

I am not sure of the difference, if any, between the battery chemistry of my 2018 Honda Clarity PHEV and my new 2023 Outlander PHEV, but I can say over the 4 years I owned the Honda, charging it exclusively at 7.2KW, there was no noticeable battery degradation. It would exceed 40 miles per charge whenever I called on it to.

One thing I would find interesting is the statistics on how many people/times the fast charger in a PHEV is used. My sense is that people who own PHEVs seldom use public chargers, let alone fast chargers. Again this is my experience and opinion. People who buy PHEVs I suspect do so in order to use free/home charging and would go to a gas station if they need go beyond the range of a charge.

If my sense is right, and it certainly is for me, then the fast charger in my 2023 Outlander is wasted weight and cost. Why would someone pay to get a 20 KWH charge (38 mile range) waiting 38 minutes to do so, when they can pull into a gas station and pump 10x the range in less than 5 minutes?

I can testify that those things are true for me.

Always charge at home, with a timer to start the charging after midnight.

One of the carparks I used for work, had free charging in a set of parking bays, where the intention was that you'd occupy a charging bay all day, and charge for free while you're there. Even under those circumstances, I didn't charge in the car park. (NB. That council had bought some PHEVs for their fleet, so may have decided that they should provide charging bays for our kind of car).

From my point of view, there was no need for me to charge, so better to leave the spaces for other users who needed that charging point.

If I need to make long trips, I just use petrol, exactly as you've described.

 

[biljhay]

Comparing 20kwh mitsu battery to Tesla 60kwh, the rate of charge is proportional to the battery size. Their is a safe rate of charge for a size of battery that minimizes heat buildup(bad for any battery), and maximizes life.

 

[aceinc]

Comparing 20kwh mitsu battery to Tesla 60kwh, the rate of charge is proportional to the battery size. Their is a safe rate of charge for a size of battery that minimizes heat buildup(bad for any battery), and maximizes life.

While the bit about the relative ratios may be true. I don't believe there is a requisite correlation between battery size & charger capacity.

This article seems to indicate quite a spectrum of charger capabilities for PHEVs.

https://www.lectrium.com/blog/onboard-chargers-limit-how-many-kilowatts-plug-in-hybrids-phevs-are-getting-during-home-level-2-charging

 

[kenny256]

The inductors and transformers inside a Mitsubishi OBC (made by Nichicon) get hot; to charge faster would require an upgrade in sizing and capacity of these magnetics in addition to the cooling system. Tesla OBC is larger and has better cooling system too.

 

[roussir]

This article seems to indicate quite a spectrum of charger capabilities for PHEVs.

https://www.lectrium.com/blog/onboard-chargers-limit-how-many-kilowatts-plug-in-hybrids-phevs-are-getting-during-home-level-2-charging

I do not accept the claim of 7.2 as typical in that article as valid, even if we consider the luxurious vehicles (which I do not). I see mostly 3.3 here: https://chargehub.com/en/find-the-right-charging-station-power.html

But some are more powerful than I expected (e.g. the Pacifica)

 

[aceinc]

This article seems to indicate quite a spectrum of charger capabilities for PHEVs.

https://www.lectrium.com/blog/onboard-chargers-limit-how-many-kilowatts-plug-in-hybrids-phevs-are-getting-during-home-level-2-charging

I do not accept the claim of 7.2 as typical in that article as valid, even if we consider the luxurious vehicles (which I do not). I see mostly 3.3 here: https://chargehub.com/en/find-the-right-charging-station-power.html

But some are more powerful than I expected (e.g. the Pacifica)

Interesting they classify the Clarity as 6.6, the Honda Clarity (which was my previous car) claims 7.2 in their sales material. I can attest to it doing at least 7KW in my experience.

Based on the document provided, most of the lower charge rates have batteries under 10KWH. For smaller batteries, the charge rate is less important. For larger batteries like the Clarity & the Outlander the charge rate makes a significant difference in usability.