Less annoying than Toyota's hybrid system?

[Fecn]

Hi Folks,

About three years ago I got myself a Toyota Auris Hybrid (not a plug-in)- I really liked the idea of gliding around in silence and comfort and getting good fuel economy in the process. I liked the car for the first week or two, but after that the car and I started to fall out with each other (mostly because the car always thought it knew best). I'd be attempting to move the car 15ft on the driveway to make space for another, and in spite of the car having a full battery, it would tell me things like 'EV mode not available' and insisit on starting the noisey, high-revving engine so that it could start getting it warmed up for lengthy journey of 15 feet. It seemed intent on running the engine all the time when I was stationary in traffic, and then turning it off as soon as I needed a burst of acceleration. After four months, I pretty much gave up on driving it, and switched back to my 20-year old deisel glugging 7-seater japanese import van (which I'm still driving today). I ended up getting rid of the Auris after only 6 months (taking a £7K hit in the process)

I'm finding myself once again thinking about swtiching from the 7-seater to something more practically sized. We have the large van because we like to go camping and take a lots and lots with us (tents, annex, 4 duvets, cupboards, kettles, fridge, food, drinks - yes, we take far too much stuff).

I currently commute 18 miles each way to and from work (mostly b-roads, plus 3-miles on the motorway), and have the ability to charge both at home, and for free at work, so the Outlander seems to tick a lot of boxes. I've had a quick 10-minute test drive in a 30mph area, and liked the comfort and the driving position, but in such a short test drive there's no way to really get to know how the car behaves (plus the garage had already warmed up the engine and recharged the battery before I got there).

From reading through the forum (In the past 2 days, I've read every forum posting made since 2014), and there seems to be a bit of a theme of people trying to work out ways to stop the engine kicking in on very short journeys, and trying to work out the logic behind when the car decides to start and stop the engine. I am a bit worried that this would drive me to distraction as it did with the Auris.

The engine on the 2016 Outlander seemed a lot quieter than the Auris for the 2-seconds when I heard it running, but does it bother you when you're just doing a quick 0.5 miles pop to the supermarket run and the car is determined to warm up the engine for 10 minutes to get better efficiency on long journeys... (if only there was a way to tell the car your intentions rather than it deciding what is going to be most efficient)

Can any former Toyota hybrid owners tell me if this car is likely to drive me bonkers like the Auris did, or does the bigger battery mean that the engine only rarely kicks in as long as the battery has charge.

Thanks folks.

Jim

 

[jaapv]

I'm not a former Toyota owner, but:
The engine will not kick in when driving off on a charged battery, however as soon as temperatures falls below about 10 Centigrade it will start up at low to medium revs to aid interior heating for the first few miles <assuming you have a model with electric heater>; there is a trick to minimize this behaviour, and keeping it in a heated garage will also prevent this. Using pre-heat also helps.

For the rest the engine will only come in to supplement battery power under heavy load (quite high-revving sometimes) which takes getting used to, and to charge the battery if required ( normally less intrusive) and it will go into parallel mode at higher speeds, when engine noise is less of an issue, with wind and tyre noise blanketing it.

This behaviour can be modified by fitting an extra EV-drive box with ICheater functionality.

All in all, when driven in the manner intended, this is a very quiet car.

 

[ChrisMiller]

Hi Jim

In my experience, it's not a great problem - certainly in the summer and once you've got used to the car. You must have read in the posts about a 'magic' box that plugs into the accelerator and reduces the likelihood of the engine starting unless you want it to. But once you get to know the car, it's not hard to achieve the same result by easing up on your right foot! I can reasonably confidently get a 25 mile journey (hilly over mainly B-roads) on a single charge, and if I do accidentally force the petrol engine into life (being overenthusiastic coming out of corners is my chief fault) it generally runs for no more than a minute and (except when tackling steep hills) the engine noise is not intrusive (you may notice it more because the car is otherwise so silent). In winter you need to like driving in the cold or else put up with letting the engine heat the car, though if you're getting the GX4 model or above you can use electric preheating.

Hope that helps (just my 2¢)

PS I don't know about the Auris, but my brother drives a Prius and the EV range is "about ¼ mile" in his words. So you have to treat it as a a petrol car with electric drive.

 

[geoffshep69]

I’ve had mine for 6 months now, and very happy with it. Based on your commuting distance, and ability to recharge at both home and work, it sounds like a perfect choice.

I’ve not had any issues with the ICE engine starting when it shouldn’t. The default is to use battery first, so any short journeys will always be done on EV (provided you have battery charge and the engine isn't needed for heating the car interior). Once the battery goes flat, the engine kicks in and out as required but most of the time this is un-noticeable, and I only know its happening by looking at the display in the dash which shows what the engine and electric motors are doing.

Only thing you need to be aware of is the occasional ‘screaming engine’ scenario. If there is a high demand for power, eg going uphill, and the car is going too slow for the ICE to drive the front wheels directly, then the engine can rev quite hard to provide additional power to the electric motors. Bit disconcerting the first time it happens, but once you are used to it I don’t think it’s a problem.

 

[jaapv]

Indeed, it is not so much that the car is going "too slow" as it can -and will- go into series hybrid if needed at all speeds up to about 70 mph. The parameter is supplementing battery power by driving the generator. It is comparable ( in sound and feeling, not in the technical aspects of course ) to the kickdown on a CVT gearbox.

 

[Steel188]

My car is now 7 months old and I am about to pass 18000 miles and I remain very pleased with it.

I too find it very comfortable, with plenty of room, excellent seats, a superb view and near silent running.

Whilst I travel the country by motorway, using petrol at about 35mpg (Sat Nav regulated 70mph with Cruise Control on where possible) my home to office journey is 12 miles. If I do this through the lanes, on a full charge, the ICE will only cut for the 500 yards or so of steep hills that I need to get up. The rest of the time is on battery only, so my mpg for these trips is about 850mpg!!

As others have said, when the ambient temperature is low, the ICE will start up to help the battery out when you first fire up the car, but it will soon turn off. I suspect that now I can charge at home, and will be using the pre heat timer function while still plugged in, this coming winter will see less of these start ups than last year. Ambient temperature does have an effect on battery efficiency, in the winter my journey home used 80% of available charge, but at the moment the same trip uses less than 50% of a charge.

I would say, accepting that the car is an 1800Kg brick, you will enjoy all the things I and others have mentioned. Go for it!

 

[geoffshep69]

Indeed, it is not so much that the car is going "too slow" as it can -and will- go into series hybrid if needed at all speeds up to about 70 mph. The parameter is supplementing battery power by driving the generator. It is comparable ( in sound and feeling, not in the technical aspects of course ) to the kickdown on a CVT gearbox.

Forgive my ignorance…but my understanding was that series hybrid was where the ICE was running to provide additional power to the electric motors, and that parallel hybrid was where the ICE was powering front wheels directly.

Your response indicates that the ‘screaming engine’ scenario is not series hybrid, so what is it then ? And why would it choose to go into screaming engine mode rather than just the regular series hybrid ? Is it because under those conditions (eg going up a steep hill) seried hybrid cannot supply enough power ?

 

[jaapv]

No, you have it right. My point is that the car can go into series hybrid at speeds which can also support parallel hybrid, up to about 70 mph, when it will always run in parallel hybrid.
So under approx 30 mph it can do EV or series hybrid, between 30 mph and 70 mph it choses EV, parallel hybrid or series hybrid according to driving conditions, power demand and charge level, over approx 70 mph it will do parallel hybrid.

 

[anko]

No, you have it right. My point is that the car can go into series hybrid at speeds which can also support parallel hybrid, up to about 70 mph, when it will always run in parallel hybrid.
So under approx 30 mph it can do EV or series hybrid, between 30 mph and 70 mph it choses EV, parallel hybrid or series hybrid according to driving conditions, power demand and charge level, over approx 70 mph it will do parallel hybrid.

The 30 mph mentioned above would be more like 40 mph (or roughly 65 km/h).

 

[jaapv]

Well, that is the approx then

 

[anko]

Well, that is the approx then

Sure. But the 10 MPH make the difference between being (legally) able to achieve parallel mode within city limits or not. Hence, I thought it was relevant.

 

[geoffshep69]

Thanks both.

So as a follow up question….and with apologies for taking this thread slightly off topic from the original purpose….why would the car choose to go into series hybrid mode (with the associated screaming engine) rather than just going into parallel mode ?

(Assuming of course it is going above either 30 or 40 mph and therefore parallel mode is available)

 

[anko]

Thanks both.

So as a follow up question….and with apologies for taking this thread slightly off topic from the original purpose….why would the car choose to go into series hybrid mode (with the associated screaming engine) rather than just going into parallel mode ?

(Assuming of course it is going above either 30 or 40 mph and therefore parallel mode is available)

In parallel mode, the RPMs are directly related to speed and thus limited. So is the power produced. By dropping out of parallel mode, the engine is allowed to rev freely and can produce much more power (and noise :mrgreen: ). At 120 km/h (70 MPH) and above the engine can produce as much power in parallel mode as it can in series mode (after conversion losses). This is why series mode is not available above that speed.

 

[geoffshep69]

Thanks both.

So as a follow up question….and with apologies for taking this thread slightly off topic from the original purpose….why would the car choose to go into series hybrid mode (with the associated screaming engine) rather than just going into parallel mode ?

(Assuming of course it is going above either 30 or 40 mph and therefore parallel mode is available)

In parallel mode, the RPMs are directly related to speed and thus limited. So is the power produced. By dropping out of parallel mode, the engine is allowed to rev freely and can produce much more power (and noise :mrgreen: ). At 120 km/h (70 MPH) and above the engine can produce as much power in parallel mode as it can in series mode (after conversion losses). This is why series mode is not available above that speed.

So going back to my original post, is it reasonable to say that I was kind of correct in blaming the screaming engine scenario on the fact that the car is going too slow, and therefore cant use parallel mode to satisfy the power demand ?

 

[anko]

No, I don't think so. If, at lower speed, the car needs high revs to fulfil power demand, how would you expect it to be able to fulfil an even higher power demand with lower revs after speeding up?

 

[jaapv]

Thanks both.

So as a follow up question….and with apologies for taking this thread slightly off topic from the original purpose….why would the car choose to go into series hybrid mode (with the associated screaming engine) rather than just going into parallel mode ?

(Assuming of course it is going above either 30 or 40 mph and therefore parallel mode is available)

In parallel mode, the RPMs are directly related to speed and thus limited. So is the power produced. By dropping out of parallel mode, the engine is allowed to rev freely and can produce much more power (and noise :mrgreen: ). At 120 km/h (70 MPH) and above the engine can produce as much power in parallel mode as it can in series mode (after conversion losses). This is why series mode is not available above that speed.

So going back to my original post, is it reasonable to say that I was kind of correct in blaming the screaming engine scenario on the fact that the car is going too slow, and therefore cant use parallel mode to satisfy the power demand ?

The high-revving engine is due to the EV drive needing more power than the battery can provide. That can never be matched by a low-revving engine that is locked into parallel mode, so if the car is in parallel mode and needs more power than battery+engine can provide it will switch to series mode to enable the ICE to deploy maximum power at optimum revolutions.
The car will always attempt to choose the most efficient mode.

 

[Fecn]

Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. You're all making quite encouraging sounds, so the Outlander is still at the top of my list.

Would it be correct to say that there are essentially 3 modes of engine operation?

a.) Parallel Hybrid (engine driving the wheels in 5th gear, available from 40mph upwards) - Engine RPM depends on wheel speed.
b.) Series Hybrid - Engine at 4200RPM for peak power... power used to turn the motors and charge the battery simultaneously, so makes sense to get most efficient and maximum power production
c.) Charging mode - Engine at some more reasonable RPM (~2500ish I'm guessing) to get around 20KW output power which will charge the battery in about 30 mins.

If that's the case, then how often in a ~20 mile daily drive are people likely to encounter b.)

Cheers.

 

[anko]

Mode b) can happen for two reasons:
- the battery + engine in parallel mode cannot provide all the power you need (> 40 MPH)
- the battery cannot provide all the power you need (<40 MPH)

The first reason will in most, if not all, cases result in high revving. The second doesn't have to. When serial mode occurs because your battery is flat, rather than power demand is to high, the engine will run as fast as necessary to provide power for driving plus limited recharging. When driving around town with a flat battery, the motor will behave rather decent, hardly noticeable.

Mode c) causes the engine to rev at approx 1100 rpm.

 

[Dusz]

I test drove a Lexus NX 300 Hybrid that has a similar operating system to the Toyota. THe engine has a low starting torque as it is tuned for efficiency when on a steady throttle. The electric part of the hybrid system is really only to get the car moving before the engine can take over it is not really intended to be possible to drive the car any distance unless it is crawling in traffic.
With the NX it was incredibly difficult not to get the engine kicking in even at slow speed. Anything over 5 mph and the engine was running.

 

[geoffshep69]

The high-revving engine is due to the EV drive needing more power than the battery can provide. That can never be matched by a low-revving engine that is locked into parallel mode, so if the car is in parallel mode and needs more power than battery+engine can provide it will switch to series mode to enable the ICE to deploy maximum power at optimum revolutions.
The car will always attempt to choose the most efficient mode.

OK, thanks, I suspect I am a bit out of my depth here !!

I guess what I was trying to indicate is that, at least in my experience, the high revving effect only occurs at lower speeds. I assumed that was because parallel mode was not available, but appreciate the clarification.

And to put the OP's mind at rest, please dont let this discussion about high revving put you off. It only happens fairly infrequently and once you are aware it can happen it becomes nothing to worry about. The vast majority of the time I find the car quiet, smooth and more than powerful enough for my needs. My daily commute is 13 miles each way - I dont have capability to recharge at work, but at this time of year I am easily doing the full 26 miles on pure EV with 2 or 3 miles range left when I come home.

Sounds like the PHEV is light years ahead of what you are describing for the Toyota !