Idea to stop ICE from starting when cold

[Steepndeep]

I have been really annoyed on the stupidity in the PHEV to always start the ICE when cold outside and I want to have a warm car inside. Using preheat obviously helps but you do not always have the time to plan that. So looking at the cabin temp-sensor and the wiring diagram (supplied somewhere in this forum) I was wondering if you could "turn off" the sensor and "install" another sensor which gives steady 12 Centigrades to the computer. If the sensor is just a thermistor you could cut it off and install the correct resistor for 12 C. Add a switch and you could turn the sensor on when you want. In winter you would then run the 12 C resistor and adjust indoor temp on dashboard for shorter non-ICE journeys. On longer journeys you switch the original sensor on and let the car do its thing. Would this work??

Looking at the sensor I realize that it is not an easy thing to get access to, and I do not want to cut a hole in the dashboard if the theory does not work. So any guidance would be appreciated.

 

[jaapv]

VTech offers something like that. Otherwise: a small 12V hairdryer...

 

[anko]

I have been really annoyed on the stupidity in the PHEV to always start the ICE when cold outside and I want to have a warm car inside. Using preheat obviously helps but you do not always have the time to plan that. So looking at the cabin temp-sensor and the wiring diagram (supplied somewhere in this forum) I was wondering if you could "turn off" the sensor and "install" another sensor which gives steady 12 Centigrades to the computer. If the sensor is just a thermistor you could cut it off and install the correct resistor for 12 C. Add a switch and you could turn the sensor on when you want. In winter you would then run the 12 C resistor and adjust indoor temp on dashboard for shorter non-ICE journeys. On longer journeys you switch the original sensor on and let the car do its thing. Would this work??

Looking at the sensor I realize that it is not an easy thing to get access to, and I do not want to cut a hole in the dashboard if the theory does not work. So any guidance would be appreciated.

This is pretty much what the PHEV Box does. It manipulates the sensor reading, so that it always reads 13 degrees C, or more when it is relay more.

Depending on how high you want to set your heater, 13 deg C is not enough, as the car 'boots' in NORMAL mode, not ECO mode. And in NORMAL mode, it will not bridge a gap from 12 deg C to (e.g.) 20 deg C. But, it will allow you to start at 15.5 deg C and gradually increase the temperature. Even when it is very cold outside.

Doing the same, but then with 18 deg C, seems to be a logical next step. But Vtechtuning (who did the PHEV Box) says he tried this and ran into yet another threshold. So results were limited. And I too think that there is more to it, perhaps taking into account temperature of the heater circuit.

Edit - I see Jaapv beat me to it ;-)

 

[phevnor]

I tried to check out the possibilities regarding the possibility to manipulate the thermistor signal.

I have done simular to my Nissan Leaf with success, not with the thermistpr for the cabin temp, but the heated water.

Have read that it is not so easy to get to the thermistor, and can agree with that.
Looking to the wiring diagram, the signal should be able to get from the wire bundle going to the heater panel.
I belive it is the contact C-205. The wire going to pin 13 ang 17 seems to be the wires form the thermistor.

If I put a potmeter between the wire in series with a switch, I can set the resistance close to the setpoint in the heather.
This should prevent the engine to start/run for heating.

Will check more with a OHM-meter to verify I have the right wires.

As by accident I forgot to put the C-205 back in place in the panel. Started car, and got EV-service warning message in display.
At first I did not remember I had forgot to put the plug back in. Took of in cold weather without the heathing panel in the console active. The car drove as a pure EV, I could nearly flat the pedal without petrol engine startet.
Did not drive far, before I turned home, and fixed the "bug". With the connector in place, all OK again.

 

[Trex]

I tried to follow check out the possibilities regarding the possibility to manipulate the thermistor signal.

I have done simular to my Nissan Leaf with success, not with the thermistpr for the cabin temp, but the heated water.

Have read that it is not so easy to get to the thermistor, and can agree with that.
Looking to the wiring diagram, the signal should be able to get to form the wire bundle going to the heater panel.
I belive it is the contact C-205. The wire going to pin 13 ang 17 seems to be the wires form the thermistor.

If I put a variabel thermistor between the wire in series with a switch, I can set the resistance close to the setpoint in the heather.
This should prevent the engine to start/rund for heating.

Will check more with a OHM-meter to verify I have the right wires.

As by accident I forgot to put the C-205 back in place in the panel. Started car, and got EV-service warning message in display.
At first I did not remember I had forgot to put the plug back in. Took of in cold weather without the heathing panel in the console active. The care drove as a pure EV, I could nearly flot the pedal without petrol engine startet.
Did not drive far, before I turned hoe, and fixed the "bud". With the connector in place, all OK again.

Hi phevnor,

Now I said back in early 2015 when I put this diagram on the forum:


I wrote underneath:

Now if you could just cut that control signal from heater control assembly to the petrol motor. Hmmm :lol:

Now instead of adjusting the sensor values can you find the control signal ( in PHEV diagram that heads from the A/C via SUB Can-C to the ETACS (GATEWAY) as shown here:



Can you see the A/C on the left of that diagram. I am pretty sure that includes the heater.

So if you can find the control signal, that heads from the A/C via SUB Can-C to the ETACS (GATEWAY), you may be able to just disconnect it to stop the petrol motor from starting. But errors may appear on the dash as well I suppose. :roll:

I have the wiring diagram for the PHEV here on my computer and will look for it if you want. But as you have already been using it for this topic you will probably be quicker.

Regards Trex.

 

[Trex]

Ok had a quick look at morning tea. This may help:




See how it goes to the ENGINE-ECU on the bottom right hand side.

Having a quick look at it you MAY have to disconnect the control signal on the OUTPUT of the ETACS-ECU but I would still try the INPUT from the PTC HEATER (on left side of diagram) to the ETACS-ECU first.

Regards Trex.

Oops. Ok checking this at lunch time I think I have the wrong year model here but you get the idea.

 

[Trex]

Ok, after looking in ETACS-ECU circuit diagram it may not be a good idea to play around with OUTPUTs from it.

PHEV40 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/151417729@N08/,

Things like fuel pump relay and ACC relay etc in the ETACS-ECU are, I think, going to bring up error messages on the dash disconnecting OUTPUTs from the ETACS

Or not control the blower relay if mucking around with INPUTS to ETAC. But this may not matter.

Though I have not had a good look at the INPUTs side of those A/C schematics yet. Will later if you want me to.

Which reminds me when I pulled the Fuel pump relay fuse in this topic http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1326 back in March 2015 I wrote:

Hi,

I now have pure Ev mode on my Phev ie foot flat to the floor on the accelerator and no Petrol motor starting up.

How did I do it? I pulled the fuel pump fuse (under the hood) and then ran the motor out of fuel (I used charge button because the Hv battery was low enough for it to start the Petrol motor) until it stopped (took less than 1 minute). Then I drove on Ev mode about town and tested it.

Well all I can say is it is unreal. Foot flat to the floor and getting the full 60kW of the Hv battery is still a heap of power around town here in our 60kph zones, where we drive everyday, and no accidental start of Petrol motor. We hardly ever use petrol running around through the week. Weekends are the only time we sometimes go on trips outside of Ev range. Everything seemed to run perfectly except no Petrol motor start.

Now the negatives of this test:

1. Yes the dash lights up with warnings and these could be logged on the computer in the Phev to be seen by the service department. I will check later with my son's ScanGauge (when I see him) and see what is logged and if they are can they be cleared.
2. After stopping the Phev and restarting later the Petrol motor ran (after pressing charge button again) for a little while (maybe 30 sec) and again ran out of petrol. Warnings were off until this happened (ran out of petrol) and then they came back on. Obviously a little fuel gets back into the Petrol motor.

Edit. I have now put the fuse back in the Phev and all warnings have gone from the dash and Petrol motor is running perfectly.

Now the disclaimer: I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THIS PROCEDURE. For obvious reasons.

This was just a TEST to see what it is like in a pure Ev mode where we use my Phev around 90% of the time (60kph zones). It was great. I know the reasons Mitsubishi have for starting the Petrol motor ie need of extra power in a emergency etc but it seemed to me to have plenty of acceleration unless I was drag racing at the traffic lights.

What I would like from Mitsubishi is a "soft" stop on the accelerator so I can easily press down with my foot and stay in Ev mode and if more power is needed push through the "soft" stop and then bring in the Petrol motor. Or a Hv battery that can discharge at 120kW.

Regards Trex.

At the time of that test no one here on the forum had pulled that fuse before I think.

Well see 1. under negatives of this test I said "Yes the dash lights up with warnings" One of those warnings was to do with ACC if I remember correctly. I think I now know why after look at those diagrams.

But to sum up you using a variable resistor to adjust that temp sensor (thermistor) may just be simpler than stuffing around with disconnecting items that talk on the Canbus.

 

[anko]

Can you see the A/C on the left of that diagram. I am pretty sure that includes the heater.

So if you can find the control signal, that heads from the A/C via SUB Can-C to the ETACS (GATEWAY), you may be able to just disconnect it to stop the petrol motor from starting. But errors may appear on the dash as well I suppose. :roll:

I have the wiring diagram for the PHEV here on my computer and will look for it if you want. But as you have already been using it for this topic you will probably be quicker.

Regards Trex.

I too think A/C includes heater as in heater control. The electronic heater itself, I think is part of COMP/HTR in the middle.

That control signal is not so much a signal as it is a particular message on a computer bus (pretty much like wired ethernet), from one ECU telling the other ECU to do something. This bus is just two wires, and a lot more signals go over it. Cutting it will most certainly brick your car.

What you would need is:
- Identify the particular message that controls this and learn to understand it, knowing there are two types of communication: spontaneous broadcasts and Q&A.
- Install a 'CANBUS Bomber' that monitors the bus for the right messages and when detected, blows them off the bus (hence 'Bomber') and replaces them with a message of your liking.

I have identified and interpreted lot's of messages going back and forth on the bus, but have not yet been able to identify anything as coming from the A/C. Will not be easy.

If we were able to intercept the right message, most likely everything will keep performing as normal. I don't think the A/C unit checks whether the engine is actually running, as the electric heater just keeps blasting away, even after the signal has been sent.

Also, pulling the fuel pump fuse does not cause A/C type warnings on the dash.

 

[anko]

As by accident I forgot to put the C-205 back in place in the panel. Started car, and got EV-service warning message in display.

Nice approach. Although I think in the end there is more to it than just cabin temperature. I strongly believe heater fluid temperature is also a factor: when you allow the heater to cool down to much without setting the A/C unit low enough, the ICE will start as well.

C-205 is probably the connector that hooks up the A/C control panel to the SUB CAN-C. My thought: All ECUs send regular 'I am alive' messages (I know a lot of them do). When these are not seen by the the PHEV ECU, it raises a general 'EV System' warning.

 

[Trex]

I too think A/C includes heater as in heater control. The electronic heater itself, I think is part of COMP/HTR in the middle.

That control signal is not so much a signal as it is a particular message on a computer bus (pretty much like wired ethernet), from one ECU telling the other ECU to do something. This bus is just two wires, and a lot more signals go over it. Cutting it will most certainly brick your car.

Ok we agree the on the control signal. I knew about COMP/HTR.

I also know about differential signaling used by the Canbus ie Can_H Can_L. Was never going to cut it. See that laughing emoji. But disconnecting is not cutting.

What you would need is:
- Identify the particular message that controls this and learn to understand it, knowing there are two types of communication: spontaneous broadcasts and Q&A.
- Install a 'CANBUS Bomber' that monitors the bus for the right messages and when detected, blows them off the bus (hence 'Bomber') and replaces them with a message of your liking.

I have identified and interpreted lot's of messages going back and forth on the bus, but have not yet been able to identify anything as coming from the A/C. Will not be easy.

If we were able to intercept the right message, most likely everything will keep performing as normal. I don't think the A/C unit checks whether the engine is actually running, as the electric heater just keeps blasting away, even after the signal has been sent.

Nothing there I have not known before but thanks anyway.

Also, pulling the fuel pump fuse does not cause A/C type warnings on the dash.

I wrote ACC not A/C. I am pretty sure that was a one of the error messages ie ACC service required. :roll:

 

[anko]

For sure you knew about these thing. But some others may not ;-)

Also, pulling the fuel pump fuse does not cause A/C type warnings on the dash.

I wrote ACC not A/C. I am pretty sure that was a one of the error messages ie ACC service required. :roll:

Was not in response to anything you wrote. I just meant to say: when you pull the fuel pump fuse, the A/C ECU does not get into distress when the ICE doesn't fire up. So, hopefully it doesn't get into distress either when the 'start engine' message is not obeyed (because it got killed) :mrgreen:

 

[DAUK]

Hi, Not having the technical ability to do otherwise, I have got into the habit of doing it the easy way - before switching off, I switch off the aircon. That way the ice does not start, and I just wait until I am out on the road and ready for it, at which time I hit the "auto" button to switch on the aircon.

 

[MartinH]

You can have the ACC on, but set to 15 ´C(don´t know F), you will have the fan working to demist, but the ICE will not start, 15,5´C and the ICE will start(if the delta is more that 10´C in Eco mode, 3´C in normal, I Think.)
This is works for the 2016 model.

 

[jaapv]

Hi, Not having the technical ability to do otherwise, I have got into the habit of doing it the easy way - before switching off, I switch off the aircon. That way the ice does not start, and I just wait until I am out on the road and ready for it, at which time I hit the "auto" button to switch on the aircon.

Press-and-hold the Aicon button for 10-20 seconds and the standard setting will default to " off"

 

[geoffshep69]

Hi, Not having the technical ability to do otherwise, I have got into the habit of doing it the easy way - before switching off, I switch off the aircon. That way the ice does not start, and I just wait until I am out on the road and ready for it, at which time I hit the "auto" button to switch on the aircon.

Press-and-hold the Aicon button for 10-20 seconds and the standard setting will default to " off"

I thought he was referring to turning off the heating completely, rather than specifically the air con button ?

If air con is off, but the heating is left switched on at, say 19 degrees C, then the ICE will still start up on a cold day ?

 

[anko]

Hi, Not having the technical ability to do otherwise, I have got into the habit of doing it the easy way - before switching off, I switch off the aircon. That way the ice does not start, and I just wait until I am out on the road and ready for it, at which time I hit the "auto" button to switch on the aircon.

Press-and-hold the Aicon button for 10-20 seconds and the standard setting will default to " off"

I thought he was referring to turning off the heating completely, rather than specifically the air con button ?

If air con is off, but the heating is left switched on at, say 19 degrees C, then the ICE will still start up on a cold day ?

Aircon on or off has indeed no impact on the unwanted ICE start. Pretty sure he means the heater.

 

[DAUK]

The "off button" that I was referring to is the aircon off button, bottom row extreme right on the aircon control panel. Easier and quicker than turning down both sides of the temperature adjusters to 15 degrees. If I forget to turn it off before switching off the power, I have found that if I instantly switch it off as soon as a press the power button it works and stops the ice from starting.

UK 16MY

 

[anko]

Most will say the aircon on/off button is the little button with the snowflake, on top of the demist button. This button controls the airconditioning. The button you are referring to turns of all of the HVAC system. Most important, it cancels any request for heat, making it unnecessary for the ICE to start.

Problem with turning it off is: you cannot turn it back on at a low setting

 

[phevnor]

Thanks all for the different inputs regarding "fix" for "no ICE".

I have made a quick calculation, and found that a potmeter 0-20kohm should fit.
Setting about 10kohm will make the car believe the temp inside is approx 20 if it is actually round 0.
If 20, then it will read 30.
If i set it to 20kohm, the reading will be approx 25.

But maybe there is as an other way to manipulate?
Could it be that if the temperature of the water in the heater circuit were fooled to believe it was hotter then actual, the system would think it is OK to only use electricity to keep the temp in the circuit. And by that not start the ICE? Any ideas or thoughts about that?

 

[george]

Just keep it off.
And use one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcar+heater.TRS0&_nkw=car+heater&_sacat=0

why not?
:lol: