GS Yuasa drive battery in the PHEV. Lets discuss.

[HHL]

And this:

However, the ISS Li-Ion batteries have been
designed for 60,000 cycles and ten years of lifetime. In
addition, they will incorporate cell balancing and
adjustable end of charge voltage technology in order to maximize their lifetime.
Li-Ion batteries have experienced notable issues in the past, in the form of overheating and “thermal
runaway” problems on the Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft.
However, the Li-Ion batteries that will be used on the ISS,
although manufactured by the same company (GS
Yuasa), have been designed incorporating lessons
learned from the 787 issues, and have passed rigorous..........

Sorry I did not answer you before HHL.

I wanted to keep myself on track and not get diverted. I was going to bring up what some of what you mention here later.

No worries.... had just come across this a while ago and thought I'd share it. Seems these people know how to make good batteries....
Incidentally, I have read somewhere that there is a difference between the LEV50 and LEV40 other than just capacity, the latter having properties more suited for PHEVs, whereas the LEV50 is designed for EV's

 

[Trex]

and as dregradation has been already mentioned.



But before people get excited about only 1000 cycles make sure you read that part about discharging to 2.75v and the charging rate and temps.

 

[Trex]

Now I will this in because we have dimensions and weight.




Anyone want to try to measure the cell on the Youtube video posted here previously.

 

[AndyH]

But before people get excited about only 1000 cycles make sure you read that part about discharging to 2.75v and the charging rate and temps.

There's very little energy left in LiMn below 3.5V at 25°C and 50A load (once we hit the 'knee' in the appropriate chart). I think I'll have to stick with the service info and video labeling - I don't think we have LEV50s in the car.

If anyone can get their hands on an LEV40 or -50 I'll gladly put it through testing under various loads. I've still got the test equipment from when I made lithium battery packs.

 

[Trex]

But before people get excited about only 1000 cycles make sure you read that part about discharging to 2.75v and the charging rate and temps.

There's very little energy left in LiMn below 3.5V at 25°C and 50A load (once we hit the 'knee' in the appropriate chart). I think I'll have to stick with the service info and video labeling - I don't think we have LEV50s in the car.

If anyone can get their hands on an LEV40 or -50 I'll gladly put it through testing under various loads. I've still got the test equipment from when I made lithium battery packs.

Er AndyH,

You do realise you have 80 of them in your own PHEV.

 

[elm70]

and as dregradation has been already mentioned.
But before people get excited about only 1000 cycles make sure you read that part about discharging to 2.75v and the charging rate and temps.

1000 Cycle at 50A discharge ... our battery in the PHEV have to handle up to 200A discharge ... so the graph/study above is showing a more "easy" job

This without mentioning that our LEV40 is a 20% downsize cell then LEV50 .. so 200A for a LEV40 is even a much more stressing application.

 

[elm70]

But before people get excited about only 1000 cycles make sure you read that part about discharging to 2.75v and the charging rate and temps.

There's very little energy left in LiMn below 3.5V at 25°C and 50A load (once we hit the 'knee' in the appropriate chart). I think I'll have to stick with the service info and video labeling - I don't think we have LEV50s in the car.

If anyone can get their hands on an LEV40 or -50 I'll gladly put it through testing under various loads. I've still got the test equipment from when I made lithium battery packs.

Er AndyH,

You do realise you have 80 of them in your own PHEV.

1, 10, 100 or 1000 ... totally irrelevant

All cells are in series in our PHEV .. and above we speak of voltage per cell ...

 

[elm70]

Now this is under their LEV 50 section on their website. See LMO graphite on their image.

So I think we have a Lithium Manganese Oxide battery cell (or 80 of them)

To be continued

In 2015 Yuasa announce: https://pushevs.com/2015/11/04/gs-yuasas-improved-cells-lev50-vs-lev50n/

So ... question is if we got old LEV50 "type" .. or the new LEV50N "type" in our Outlander.

Based on fast degradation even on 2015 PHEV models .. I would guess Mitsubishi did stick to the LEV50 "type"

Anyhow ... nothing take away that 10% of energy lost at 50kw output .. and fast degradation on almost all PHEV on the market

So objectively ... the battery on our PHEV are not well designed for the job ... and at the moment it is the biggest problem in our PHEV

 

[AndyH]

But before people get excited about only 1000 cycles make sure you read that part about discharging to 2.75v and the charging rate and temps.

There's very little energy left in LiMn below 3.5V at 25°C and 50A load (once we hit the 'knee' in the appropriate chart). I think I'll have to stick with the service info and video labeling - I don't think we have LEV50s in the car.

If anyone can get their hands on an LEV40 or -50 I'll gladly put it through testing under various loads. I've still got the test equipment from when I made lithium battery packs.

Er AndyH,

You do realise you have 80 of them in your own PHEV.

Sure mate - let me just crawl under the car with a couple of sockets, drop the pack on my arm, and take my only car off-line while I torture test a cell with my remaining hand. :lol: I'll be in the battery box, but not during my first month of ownership.

There are some iMiev batteries in the 'States but (hopefully!) it'll be some time before someone totals an Outlander PHEV.

Andy

 

[Esparza]

The phev has not LEV50, the cells are thinner. Less layers less capacity.

 

[Trex]

Er AndyH,

You do realise you have 80 of them in your own PHEV.

Sure mate - let me just crawl under the car with a couple of sockets, drop the pack on my arm, and take my only car off-line while I torture test a cell with my remaining hand. :lol: I'll be in the battery box, but not during my first month of ownership. Andy

:lol: :lol:

Er Andy,

You do realise they make those hydraulic jacks with those little wheels..........

But seriously. I wonder who will be in the battery box first. You or me. My warranty runs out sooner but you may be more inquisitive and not care about the warranty.

Trex.

 

[Trex]

The phev has not LEV50, the cells are thinner. Less layers less capacity.

Sorry Esparza,

Not sure we can tell from those images.

One battery is closer to the camera I think so not very scientific IMO.

Will have a closer look at it later and see if we can work out some ratios to prove or disprove.

Where is the bottom image from?

 

[jaapv]

You can tell the difference from the connectors.

 

[elm70]

I think there is no doubt that our PHEV is not using LEV50 nor LEV50N

Our PHEV battery is not shown anywhere

We can only assumed that based on capacity, format, size, etc that our battert is a LEV40, or in other words, the downsizings of the LEV50 (maybe LEV50N for post 2016 PHEV), still I believe the nominal capacity of our PHEV battery is 40Ah but Mitsubishi decided to use (or better tune the BMU) as it is 38Ah for make more simple the software in charge of estimate range, when to switch to ICE mode, etc

 

[Esparza]

As jaapv said look at the connectors. The bottom image is from a LEV50 that i have at home.

 

[Trex]

As jaapv said look at the connectors. The bottom image is from a LEV50 that i have at home.

LEV50 or LEV50N ie how old is your battery. From an I-miev?

 

[ScottyDont]

I would assume the PHEV has a cell designed specifically for a PHEV application, being a cell that trades off energy density for power density. PHEV applications go through significantly more cycles and faster average charge/discharge C-rates than most common EVs, so need to be manufactured to handle the power requirements while maintaining a good cycle life.

Keep in mind the dimensions may not be 20% smaller than an LEV50 cell. An example of this is 18650s, where you can buy a 2500mAh cell capable of 20A, or a 3200mAh cell capable of 10A. Same dimensions but constructed for different output characteristics. The 2500mAh cell would have thicker layers to handle higher current reliably over many cycles, so can not fit as many winds within the same casing which lowers capacity.

Trex if you are planning to dismantle a PHEV battery please let me help!

Cheers,
Scott

 

[mrqz]

An example of this is 18650s, where you can buy a 2500mAh cell capable of 20A, or a 3200mAh cell capable of 10A. Same dimensions but constructed for different output characteristics. The 2500mAh cell would have thicker layers to handle higher current reliably over many cycles, so can not fit as many winds within the same casing which lowers capacity.
Scott

Talking about 18650's this could be our guy: Authentic AWT IMR 18650 battery 3500mah 40A

But I think 26650's would fit best in the PHEV battery pack's housing and might be a direct replacement for the square shape LEV40's. Probably some (if not much!) weight saving also possible here, along with better cooling abilities due to the round shape.

 

[Esparza]

If from a frien, i dont know if its LEV50 or LEV50N but its from a i-Miev.

ScottyDont that its true, but the I-miev has an output power of 60kW, same that the phev in EV mode so in this case that is not a desing factor.

 

[Trex]

Trex if you are planning to dismantle a PHEV battery please let me help!

Cheers,
Scott

Not planning to dismantle it just yet Scott. Still have 1 year warranty on the battery left I think. 5yr warranty here from memory.

ScottyDont, reminds me when I bought the PHEV. Trex don't buy the PHEV was all I heard from my family. Now I cannot get them out of it. :roll:

Regards Trex.