freeway charging

[SS2115]

Hi.
I'm new. So very new to PHEV's that I don't pick up my PHEV until next monday 9th. I purchased a 2020 ZL Outlander Exceed with 31,000klms on it. It will be my first experience with EV's although I've been studying every YouTube on the subject.

I'm not an environmentalist. My driving habits have changed with Covid isolation and also retirement is only 12 - 24 months away and I'm just sick of paying so much for petrol. My vehicle until now has been using 18l/100k with most of the week being between 1.7 to 8klms per day it hardly warms up.
So I'm trying to be practical in my 'old age' and I hope to drive up to 3 days or so on battery only and recharge with off-peak at night. But I still have longer journeys around Sydney 1 to 5 times per week and I want to drive distances on weekends and holidays and not have range anxiety and worrying about finding a charge point.

This Exceed has soooo much gadgets and stuff on it its going to be quite a learning curve to come to grips with it all, so I'm sure I'll be frequenting this forum often with stupid questions.
But for now my first question is that I am picking up the car on monday and driving it 8.5 hours home to Sydney (what better way to get to know a new car?) It will be mostly freeway - pacific highway from Coolingatta to Northern Beaches of Sydney.

I doubt I will be starting out with a fully charged battery. If i just leave everything on default, will I arrive home with a fully charged battery, or do I have to switch one of the many switches in the centre console perhaps?
I know about regenerative braking (and understand the paddles on the outlander) but pretty much of the drive will be freeway on cruise control and not much in the way of stops or even hills until I'm practically at Sydney and home.

While i don't expect the ICE to recharge the battery on my usual routine weekdays, I would expect to be able to top it right up over an 8.5 hour uninterrupted journey. But I wish to be sure I have the settings correct to do so.

I cannot find this exact info on the internet or YouTube. I also noticed on YouTube that the mostly UK and USA Outlanders have different switches with different names, and without my car in front of me I cannot remember what the Australian versions have.

 

[littlescrote]

Welcome to PHEV ownership.

It's quite simple. The battery will be used by default until it is empty.

When driving, you can press Charge to make the engine run and add charge to the battery when there is excess power available (plenty when you're cruising on the flat at the moderate speeds allowed in Oz). You can check this is happening by changing your display, either centre console one or centre of dash, to see the power flow. You should expect an orange flow of power showing the mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels in the fixed '5th gear' and an additional blue arrow showing power going from the generator attached to the engine to the battery. Don't leave Charge on once you get beyond 80% battery capacity as it becomes less efficient as the charge rate to the battery is reduced.

When you have any amount of charge in the battery that you'd like to save for upcoming mountain climbs, urban driving etc (which only you can know about, the car cannot see into the future), use the Save button and it will cycle between using the battery up a little and then Charging it back up again.

So how much battery you end up with when you get home is entirely in your control. Ideally, if you can charge cheaply at home plugged in, you want to arrive with as little as possible. You can either do that just by driving it all the way without doing anything, or you could build up a bit of charge in advance of your last few miles home if you live in an urban area.

Hope that's understandable. The power flow diagram really helps understand it.

 

[kpetrov]

littlescrote describe it correctly.
On CHARGE mode the vehicle won't charge the battery once it reach 80% though.
Your main goals:
In battery range trips - aim at only electric power. In NORMAL mode if you push it beyond the green zone on your power-meter (the one replacing RPM gauge) your engine will fire, so drive it gently.
In longer than battery range trips your goal is to use the engine only on highways when it can stay in parallel mode (over 65km/h). That will be the most efficient mode to use it. Always keep some battery, it is useful for climbing, traffic etc. Deplete your battery on your final stretch to your plugin location. Use CHARGE on highways to build the necessary accumulation for your eventual urban driving ahead but to arrive with empty battery as well.

Your strategy will depend on your itinerary.

 

[SS2115]

Thank you both for your replies. Nicely detailed - thank you.

But I have to ask - why do I want to arrive home with a depleted battery?
I realise I can plug it into a charger for the next day to have a full battery again, but why wouldn't I like to arrive home after an 8.5 hour drive with an already full battery and have it to use the next day without having to plug it in to use my overnight power from the grid.

It seems to me that with freeway running I am going to be using the motor whether I wanted to or not, so why wouldn't I be using it to fully charge the battery rather than arrive home with a "depleted" battery and have to pay for electricity to charge it up again?

 

[ChrisMiller]

On the basis that (domestic) electricity is cheaper than petrol, most of us want to maximise our use of electricity. There's no 'free' energy from the ICE that can be used to charge the battery, it will always consume extra petrol in doing so. 'Charge' is really there to mitigate the problem of running into 'turtle' mode if you're hauling a trailer up a long steep hill.

 

[SS2115]

Hmmm.
Its a different mentality which I will have to get used to I guess.
I realise electricity is cheaper than petrol (the reason why I'm buying the PHEV) and under normal circumstances charging overnight for the next day will become the habit.
But if I'm on a freeway at freeway speeds using petrol via the ICE engine, I figured I may as well use it to charge up the battery for next day as well. ie: I have to spend the money (on petrol) over 8.5 hours driving, so I may as well get the most out of it.
Doesn't that make more sense than using the petrol and then on top of that spend a bit more on electricity charging it? My normal daily car use won't charge it and so overnight charging will be the norm. But a 8.5 freeway drive is surely enough to charge the battery and have it near full for the next day?

 

[mellobob]

You will use MORE gasoline if you turn on charge, even on the freeway. There is no free lunch here ... pay for EXTRA gasoline or pay of electricity. As others have said, the electric option is the cheaper one.

 

[SS2115]

Ok. Got it.
That much more petrol over such a distance?
But okay - I'm getting it.
Thanks for everyone patience.

 

[kpetrov]

Hmmm.
Its a different mentality which I will have to get used to I guess.
I realise electricity is cheaper than petrol (the reason why I'm buying the PHEV) and under normal circumstances charging overnight for the next day will become the habit.
But if I'm on a freeway at freeway speeds using petrol via the ICE engine, I figured I may as well use it to charge up the battery for next day as well. ie: I have to spend the money (on petrol) over 8.5 hours driving, so I may as well get the most out of it.
Doesn't that make more sense than using the petrol and then on top of that spend a bit more on electricity charging it? My normal daily car use won't charge it and so overnight charging will be the norm. But a 8.5 freeway drive is surely enough to charge the battery and have it near full for the next day?

The problem in your conclusion " if I'm on a freeway at freeway speeds using petrol via the ICE engine anyway"
That's the deal... you don't have to use the ICE engine on your last leg of the trip it there awaits you cheaper energy source.
Yes you have to use it when travelling out of battery range but you have to minimize it if possible and by arriving empty you minimize the use of expensive energy vs. cheap one that's available at your destination.
If electricity per mile is more expensive where you live vs petrol than yes, you have to maximize battery charging on a highway.

 

[IslandLife]

Here's the difference: The vehicle is more efficient when just left alone and running as a hybrid vs when running on "Charge" mode. You use more gas running on Charge than you do on "Normal". Generally, the electricity you generate in Charge mode uses more energy and costs more than charging at home. So while it costs me about $1.50 to charge my battery at home, it's costs me about an extra $5 in gas to fully charge my battery vs driving in "Normal". You're not offsetting any fuel expense with cheap electricity. You're just spending even more in gas vs using cheap electricity. Also, generally, almost nowhere in the western world these days is electricity generated 100% from carbon based sources. Most are a mix, some more than others. Where I live 98% of our electricity is generated from clean sources (96% hydro) and so choosing to use electricity from charging is releasing significantly less carbon than electricity generated from a tiny ICE generator. Even places where electricity is generated 100% by a gas or coal driven plant, those plants are orders of magnitude more efficient than a tiny gas powered generator. Anyway....

In the winter, for the past 4 years, I've been driving a 500km return road trip every weekend to our "local" ski hill. It's mostly highway driven at speeds of 100 km/h to 110 km/h. There is one small "mountain" (10kms and 361 metres to the top) on the way and then a steep, slow (60 km/h) short 20 min drive up the mountain from the highway (20 kms and 1000 metres). I've used every combination of modes under the sun and here are a few learnings from these trips.

Don't use your electricity at highway speeds unless you just don't have any slower speed urban driving... it's horribly inefficient on EV mode at highway speed and blows through juice very quickly. Use NORMAL, SAVE or CHARGE (if there's a good reason) when on the highway.

It's most efficient on the highway when using NORMAL or SAVE mode (if saving juice for something later or you have some long mountain passes ahead). Otherwise if you've used your juice, just leave it alone, it drives more efficiently left alone running as a hybrid at that point.

On the highway, if you have some lower speed urban driving ahead of you... you can use CHARGE to get some juice in the battery to use for that driving, generally, using extra gas to charge and get some juice in the battery is offset by EV driving used for slower speed driving. But if you have the ability to charge at your destination (cheaply), use that, don't prefer expensive gas generated electricity over cheap home rates. Where it gets tougher is when you have to pay higher rates for charging at a destination... you'll have to crunch those numbers. Generally, I've found running as a hybrid cheaper than paying for chargers that charge you a fee to charge. And level 3 high speed charging is pretty much always way more expensive and not worth it where I live were companies are still forced to charge you based on time vs kWh/hour. The fast charging speed of this PHEV is too slow and ends up costing way more than gas to fast charge. If it's rate based.. again up to you to crunch the numbers. But it's also just not a good idea to fast charge such a little battery often.

Don't worry about specifically saving some charge in the battery for small and moderate hills while driving on the highway unless you have some quite long and steep mountain passes. The battery reserve is deep and will allow you more than enough power to get up small and moderate hills. Again, letting the system manage this is more efficient than you might think you can be.

If your vehicle is newer, charging while driving will get your battery to 90% where it will then just switch to hybrid and keep you between 80 and 90%. No need to stop using CHARGE once it gets to this point, the software manages it well and it just runs as a hybrid. I've not noticed a difference in efficiency here, it works quite well. As the vehicle ages and your battery SOH drops, this will be lowered to 80%. Keep in mind that at high states of charge you will have very little, or almost no regenerative braking available. Depending on what you're doing, this is when it might be a good idea to stop charging at 80% or lower.

I drove a 2018 that I bought in 2019 for almost 3 years and have had a 2022 that I bought new (still older gen vs brand new gen) in March of 2022. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Here's the difference: The vehicle is more efficient when just left alone and running as a hybrid vs when running on "Charge" mode. You use more gas running on Charge than you do on "Normal".

This is extremely misleading and fundamentally misunderstands how the car works. Once the battery shows empty, the car runs in what is effectively Charge mode way, way more than half the time. So saying Charge mode is somehow less efficient than leaving it alone is just plain wrong, as it's doing the same thing either way.

You need a fixed amount of energy to get from A to B. Any energy that exceeds that available in the battery has to come from the fuel. As long as you arrive at your next charge with an empty battery and don't try to charge the battery above ¾-full while driving, it makes next to no difference to economy on the highway if you press CHRG or let the car manage itself. In fact, tests in Australia detailed on this forum have shown that pressing CHRG for long periods and then running in EV till empty is actually slightly more efficient than leaving the car alone, though the difference is tiny to be fair. So pressing CHRG merely timeshifts when the car charges itself, and does not affect how much fuel it uses overall.

 

[mikepotts64]

Arriving late to the conversation but a couple of points as I'm familiar with the route and have driven 48,000km in my 2021 PHEV.
Hope you're enjoying your PHEV. Sounds like you are ideally situated for the perfect match of machine to functional requirements.
- the Northern beaches drive from the M1 at Wahroonga is an excellent regenerative drive if you use B5 in normal mode, one pedal driving where possible. You can arrive at Northern Beaches with net battery use as little as 3% due to the extended downhill runs along Mona Vale Rd.
- there is a free NRMA super charger at Nabiac if you want to stop for coffee while you get a 25 minute quick charge to 80%.
- It takes some time to discover the best match of how your PHEV can work for your driving needs. I travel Lake Macquarie to Wahroonga (92km each way) 3 days a week and my consumption average for all time is 80% EV, 20% ICE (using PHEV watchdog). I have towed a 1500kg caravan 300km without a problem, and charge using my home solar system - this costs me 12c/kWh not sent to the grid.
All the best with your new toy, a great choice!

 

[SS2115]

Thank you for the replies.
Love driving it and charged it for the first time since arriving home (monday evening with 66klms EV range) last night with EV extinguished 1klm from home. I used B5 a lot because of my hilly terrain, but otherwise left it alone and the motor never fired up - I kept my acceleration in the green zone.
So pretty pleased.

I still need some clarity on the charging though. I get the various opinions on arriving with flat battery ety and using the cheaper energy source to recharge.
But on my 1092klm drive from the Gold Coast to Home, I left with a flat battery so once on the freeweay I switched on charge. Left B setting as all very flat anyway.
It charged to about 44klms of range and switched itself off (returned to normal). I tried switching it back on and although it said it was charging, it never got higher.

So later in the trip I decided to try Save because I wanted to arrive home with a full battery. The Save setting seemed to still share the EV and motor pretty much the same as default D-drive but the klms crept up to 66 EV range which is what I arrived home with.

Last night, I plugged in the charger. I turned off the timer the previous owner had set (for off peak) and instead turned it on at about 8.30pm last night and left it all night. This morning at 9am I went out and it had stopped charging, the screen said it had completed, but my range only says 38klms.
So a little bewildered.

I've seen as high as 67klms on the big drive and arrived home with 66. Driving this week I've seen the battery depleted over 5 days of little driving and hilly terrain (not unhappy at all). But the first charge only reaped 38klms which is only going to give me half the range I just had this week.

So is my battery at fault?
Is there a setting I don't yet know about?
I doubt its the charger because I am aware that 'charger' is incorrect terminology as the car itself actually controls the charging and the plug-in device is just a device to provide voltage and remote on/off for the car to control.

I have purchased a 7.6kW wall charger with tethered T1 lead and plug but haven't installed it yet. I wanted to see how my pattern of usage goes and decide if i install it at home or at work, or maybe buy another for both locations.
*Yes - I also know the Outlander only charges at 3.7kW but I'm allowing for future, plus any EV visitors, plus I like the idea its got plenty of headway and not on the edge of its capacity all the time.
But would this bigger source of amps (32a) allow the car more capacity as I know the wall units (and plug-in Mitsi unit) talk to the car and back via the pilot wire.

Or should I try driving around on Save all the time for a while?

 

[ThudnBlundr]

The Guess-o-meter (GOM) guesses your range based on your recent driving. It will vary as the roads and terrain change. Ours is now around 12 miles, but it's been as high as 43! It's comparable to the mpg/range readings on a regular car. Would you accept those as the definitive answer? The GOM is simply an indication - it's how many EV miles/kms you actually get that's the range, not the guess by the car.

Charging a full-ish battery is far less efficient than charging one below 60%. At lower SOH, the car can charge at high power, but has to restrict the power as the battery fills so that no cells are over-charged. That's why it stops at ~80% - any higher and the efficiency would drop even further. But even when the car stops charging automatically, it is wasting fuel. I can't find the actual post on here, but much above 60% and it starts using more fuel. The higher the SOH above 60%, the less fuel-efficient it becomes. So for best efficiency, never use CHRG or SAVE above 60%.

Don't forget that the car will add extra regen (if it can) when pressing the brake pedal before actually using the brake disks. It calculates the maximum allowable power based on SOH, battery temperature (and probably other things) and will regen up to that power before using the disks. This happens in all 'B' settings from B0 to B5. So higher 'B' setting merely increase how much regen you can get before using the brakes, not the maximum available. I tend to drive in B5 all the time and use the throttle to coast (like B0) if needed. But others swear by using B0 - YMMV

Save and drive appear to use exactly the same algorithms to manage the car. It's just that Save attempts to maintain the same battery percentage (NOT range). So range can increase even with the same battery percentage as the miles per kWh increases. Leaving it alone merely uses EV till the battery shows empty and then charges a small amount. It then empties the battery and starts charging again: it keeps going round this "Hysteresis Loop" till the end of the journey. That said, the percentage can decrease while under heavy load such as
towing, which is why many people say to use Charge in that case.

Driving around in Save all the time turns the PHEV into a simple hybrid, so why bother with a PHEV? The whole idea is that you can use the EV range to run without the ICE. You can choose when to use EV and when to use the ICE by judicious use of the SAVE and CHRG buttons. Most efficient seems to be to use EV around town and CHRG or SAVE on the highway. For best efficiency and least cost, always try to arrive at your next charge with an empty battery. Anything else is just wasting money, and negates the point of owning a PHEV. I'm still not clear why you planned to use extra fuel to charge your battery on the journey in order to arrive home with a full-ish battery and then charge it?

 

[mellobob]

Just a quick comment on regen braking when the battery is full ... my understanding is that when the battery is full (well, at 80%, but we'll consider this "full") regen doesn't happen. I found this out by charging my car and then going out---we live at the top of a hill and so it ends up being friction breaking all the way down. Don't know if the 2023 will be better in this aspect ... don't get my GT for another week or so. :x

 

[user 3575]

Thank you for the replies.
Love driving it and charged it for the first time since arriving home (monday evening with 66klms EV range) last night with EV extinguished 1klm from home. I used B5 a lot because of my hilly terrain, but otherwise left it alone and the motor never fired up - I kept my acceleration in the green zone.
So pretty pleased.

I still need some clarity on the charging though. I get the various opinions on arriving with flat battery ety and using the cheaper energy source to recharge.
But on my 1092klm drive from the Gold Coast to Home, I left with a flat battery so once on the freeweay I switched on charge. Left B setting as all very flat anyway.
It charged to about 44klms of range and switched itself off (returned to normal). I tried switching it back on and although it said it was charging, it never got higher.

So later in the trip I decided to try Save because I wanted to arrive home with a full battery. The Save setting seemed to still share the EV and motor pretty much the same as default D-drive but the klms crept up to 66 EV range which is what I arrived home with.

Last night, I plugged in the charger. I turned off the timer the previous owner had set (for off peak) and instead turned it on at about 8.30pm last night and left it all night. This morning at 9am I went out and it had stopped charging, the screen said it had completed, but my range only says 38klms.
So a little bewildered.

I've seen as high as 67klms on the big drive and arrived home with 66. Driving this week I've seen the battery depleted over 5 days of little driving and hilly terrain (not unhappy at all). But the first charge only reaped 38klms which is only going to give me half the range I just had this week.

So is my battery at fault?
Is there a setting I don't yet know about?
I doubt its the charger because I am aware that 'charger' is incorrect terminology as the car itself actually controls the charging and the plug-in device is just a device to provide voltage and remote on/off for the car to control.

I have purchased a 7.6kW wall charger with tethered T1 lead and plug but haven't installed it yet. I wanted to see how my pattern of usage goes and decide if i install it at home or at work, or maybe buy another for both locations.
*Yes - I also know the Outlander only charges at 3.7kW but I'm allowing for future, plus any EV visitors, plus I like the idea its got plenty of headway and not on the edge of its capacity all the time.
But would this bigger source of amps (32a) allow the car more capacity as I know the wall units (and plug-in Mitsi unit) talk to the car and back via the pilot wire.

Or should I try driving around on Save all the time for a while?

Our PHEV was new in June 2020, it was a massive learning curve, I tried to overthink it, not really much to add just listen to these guys.

 

[AndyInOz]

Yes, regenerative braking is disabled when the battery is full.

The only alternative to this, is like ore trucks, you'd need a big bank of resistors on the outside of the vehicle, which glow red hot, while braking.

Save is different to normal. If you select 'Save' when the battery is at 50%, the engine will start periodically to boost the charge back up to 50%. (Or any other value at or below 80%).

 

[littlescrote]

Don't use your electricity at highway speeds unless you just don't have any slower speed urban driving... it's horribly inefficient on EV mode at highway speed and blows through juice very quickly. Use NORMAL, SAVE or CHARGE (if there's a good reason) when on the highway.

It's most efficient on the highway when using NORMAL or SAVE mode (if saving juice for something later or you have some long mountain passes ahead). Otherwise if you've used your juice, just leave it alone, it drives more efficiently left alone running as a hybrid at that point.

You obviously don't understand the meaning of the word efficiency. EV mode is still by far the most efficient - it's just that at highway speed the power consumption is so high that it depletes the small battery energy quickly. Using the ICE is WAY less efficient, it's just that you have vastly more energy stored in the petrol tank.

 

[kpetrov]

Yep, regenerative braking do not work when battery is full, no place to store the energy.
If you live on top of the hill simply do not fully charge the battery by the mean of timed charging (you have to figure out the duration by trial and mistake)
2023 model or gen.4 is no better in regenerative braking in this case, if no place to store the energy.
It is coupling the ICE and using it as motor brake I heard.

Do not use the GOM as battery charge gauge, as said before it depends on previous trip energy use.

IslandLife is somehow writing contradictory stuff:

The vehicle is more efficient when just left alone and running as a hybrid

It's most efficient on the highway when using NORMAL or SAVE mode (if saving juice for something later or you have some long mountain passes ahead). Otherwise if you've used your juice, just leave it alone, it drives more efficiently left alone running as a hybrid at that point.

On the highway, if you have some lower speed urban driving ahead of you... you can use CHARGE to get some juice in the battery to use for that driving, generally, using extra gas to charge and get some juice in the battery is offset by EV driving used for slower speed driving.

If left alone or in NORMAL it will use all the juice on the highway and you may end-up using the ICE in the urban area.
This type of vehicle should be never left alone for better efficiency.
How using CHARGE for fixed amount of time you needed different from just left alone and running as a hybrid? It uses the same engine but with CHARGE you have the control, left alone is whatever happens traffic and itinerary control.
At least with the last paragraph quoted he acknowledges using CHARGE and taking the control is the way to go.

 

[IslandLife]

Yep, regenerative braking do not work when battery is full, no place to store the energy.
If you live on top of the hill simply do not fully charge the battery by the mean of timed charging (you have to figure out the duration by trial and mistake)
2023 model or gen.4 is no better in regenerative braking in this case, if no place to store the energy.
It is coupling the ICE and using it as motor brake I heard.

Do not use the GOM as battery charge gauge, as said before it depends on previous trip energy use.

IslandLife is somehow writing contradictory stuff:

The vehicle is more efficient when just left alone and running as a hybrid

It's most efficient on the highway when using NORMAL or SAVE mode (if saving juice for something later or you have some long mountain passes ahead). Otherwise if you've used your juice, just leave it alone, it drives more efficiently left alone running as a hybrid at that point.

On the highway, if you have some lower speed urban driving ahead of you... you can use CHARGE to get some juice in the battery to use for that driving, generally, using extra gas to charge and get some juice in the battery is offset by EV driving used for slower speed driving.

If left alone or in NORMAL it will use all the juice on the highway and you may end-up using the ICE in the urban area.
This type of vehicle should be never left alone for better efficiency.
How using CHARGE for fixed amount of time you needed different from just left alone and running as a hybrid? It uses the same engine but with CHARGE you have the control, left alone is whatever happens traffic and itinerary control.
At least with the last paragraph quoted he acknowledges using CHARGE and taking the control is the way to go.

Yes, As I described, and maybe I wasn't clear. I meant left in NORMAL when on the highway IF you don't have any juice left in the battery. Otherwise use SAVE to save that juice for use later in a better situation (slow speed urban driving). AND, if you don't have any juice in the battery, yes, it is better to use CHARGE to get just enough for use through slow speed urban sections. But once you have enough, switch to SAVE vs leaving it in CHARGE. Again, as I described, unless you also have some large mountain passes to get up, then charging to get some juice in the battery for use to help you up the mountain is good.

In my experience. If you use CHARGE all the time for now good reason vs letting it run as a hybrid on it's own, you miss out on a number of efficiencies. Like when it turns off the engine when braking hard and using regen. Or when it turns off the engine as you approach intersections/stop lights etc. and then doesn't turn the engine on again until after you've pulled away and gained some speed. I've also found that depending on load, speed, battery SOC and other variable factors, even at highway speeds the software will sometimes choose between serial and parallel in instances where I would have assumed parallel would have been more appropriate but instead it chose serial. After running hundreds of these road trips now and testing every option under the sun... I've also noticed little things like, it seems to put more load on the engine when using "CHARGE" than it does during it's charging mode while running as a hybrid. Perhaps it assumes you want more charge sooner/quicker than it needs when charging while running as a hybrid. Either way, I've done this trip in both modes and combinations there of many, many times and consistently get better mileage while running in NORMAL or SAVE (if you have some battery) vs. CHARGE on the highway.