Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a problem?

[anko]

Hello Anco
I have been looking at the prices of the adaptors on line.
there is a wide range. (Approx. £50/£200 +) Is there any advantage in buying the more expensive version,
Regards

You may want to read what eventually has led to this: http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=34275#p34275. If you have a really bad one, it can cause all sorts of issues. So, yes. It can make a difference.

Evpositive has a list of adapters that are known to work with EvBatMon: http://evpositive.com/evbatmon-for-phev.html

What you do not need for EvBatMon is an adapter with an STN1110 type chip (which supports the ST command set, such as the more expensive OBDLink adapters). An adapter with a decent ELM327 chip (which supports the AT command set) will do. But OBDLink does work fine too, as the STN chips implement the ST command set as well.

 

[Grigou]

The battery could be below 80% now how would I know?
I love the car but as a newbie I would be grateful for any help or advise from any one on any aspect of the car
especially the drive battery.

You can easily check on, and track, the degradation in capacity in your battery yourself. See http://www.evpositive.com/battery-history.html

Note that the graph is in Ah, however you can convert that to a percentage by dividing by 40, so if your battery is currently at 36Ah, then 36Ah / 40Ah (battery capacity when new) = 90% PMC (Percentage of Manufacturer's Capacity)

All you need is the EvBatMon Android & iPhone App and an OBD Adapter that plugs into the service port under your steering wheel. See here for details -
Android http://www.evpositive.com/evbatmon-for-phev.html and
iPhone/iPad http://evpositive.com/evbatmon-for-phev-ios.html

Hi zzcoopej !

I think we must divide the Ah by 38, not 40. At least it's what my EvBatMon's copy does

 

[jaapv]

That is correct. 40 AH is nominal capacity, all new cars are tested at delivery and 38 Ah is a common value.

 

[zzcoopej]

I think we must divide the Ah by 38, not 40. At least it's what my EvBatMon's copy does

Hi Grigou!
You are correct, I've edited my post.

 

[anko]

Checked this morning. My battery is at 29.5 Ah and accepts no more than 8.09 kWh (last session) from empty to full. This was measured at the circuit breaker panel of my house, which is about 15 meters of wire away from my charging station.

I wonder where this will end ....

 

[maby]

Checked this morning. My battery is at 29.5 Ah and accepts no more than 8.09 kWh (last session) from empty to full. This was measured at the circuit breaker panel of my house, which is about 15 meters of wire away from my charging station.

I wonder where this will end ....

Well, ultimately with a dead battery - as we know all too well - the question really is more when rather than where!

 

[anko]

Checked this morning. My battery is at 29.5 Ah and accepts no more than 8.09 kWh (last session) from empty to full. This was measured at the circuit breaker panel of my house, which is about 15 meters of wire away from my charging station.

I wonder where this will end ....

Well, ultimately with a dead battery - as we know all too well - the question really is more when rather than where!

Haha. Let me rephrase that: I wonder where this will end for me. I mean, I am probably not keeping it forever / not long enough to end up with a dead battery.

 

[GreyBigFoot]

Yikes!

That's under the estimated 80% for 5 (or is it 8?) years claim.

Have you questioned Mitsubishi's services about that?

Trying to do some math, 8.09kWh should be about 25Ah (8090Wh / 320v = 25,28Ah) of consumed energy.

From what I've seen there should be about 8Ah to 10Ah still left in empty pack.

Also SOC right after charging can raise up to 107% of current capacity.

(29.5*1,07) - 8 = 23.56Ah

So if not wrong with my numbers and facts, for an empty pack at 8Ah and a full charge to 107% about 1.72Ah should be lost in the charging process.

Which I found a bit high, I'm seeing myself about 0.5-1Ah measured at the wall... Still, could be.

 

[anko]

That's under the estimated 80% for 5 (or is it 8?) years claim.

I am afraid that this is a misconception. To my best of knowledge, such a claim does not exist. Only an "communicated expectation"

 

[maby]

That's under the estimated 80% for 5 (or is it 8?) years claim.

I am afraid that this is a misconception. To my best of knowledge, such a claim does not exist. Only an "communicated expectation"

That is my understanding too - the warranty on the EV systems is only against failure, not gradual degradation.

 

[Claymore]

I asked Mitsu UK about that some time ago and received this reply;

"Thank you for your enquiry.

The battery will lose capacity over time but is expected to still exceed 80% capacity after 10 years. As a result you are correct in saying anything beyond this would be deemed beyond ‘normal’ wear and tear.

I trust this is of assistance.

Yours sincerely,

James


James Marner | Customer Service Advisor
Customer Services Phone: +44 1285 647774
e-mail: [email protected]

Mitsubishi Motors in the UK
Watermoor | Cirencester | Gloucestershire | GL7 1LF
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk | Facebook: /MitsubishiUK | Twitter: @MitsubishiUK
YouTube: /MitsubishiTV | Instagram: /mitsubishimotorsuk | Pinterest: /mitsubishiuk

 

[anko]

Hmmmm .... interesting .....

Sent them a mail ;-)

 

[elm70]

That is correct. 40 AH is nominal capacity, all new cars are tested at delivery and 38 Ah is a common value.

Just read this ...

For time I was wondering why the battery condition of my PHEV for EvBatMon was above 94% with just 36Ah

Still it is odd ... I was assuming the cells used in the PHEV was 40Ah Lithium cells

Anyhow ... my old PHEV got 2nd as possible lemon from Netherlands .. does still appear to have battery in decent condition .. even if I never managed to get over 40km EV range .. that is also what the EV range report in the morning when I switch on the car after a full night charge.

Also ... what puzzle me is that range reported just before I switch off the car (after home to work trip) is about 5km less then when I switch on the car on the same day f(for work to home) ... a trip that is only 10/11km ... quite strange indeed to see range increase while the car is resting in the parking lot

Maybe while the car is off .. the battery manager has the time does balance the pack .. and this can give extra range ?

Or .. as I seen on old lithium cell .. which develop high IR .. voltage increase while resting after some usage at relative high discharge rate

Anyhow ... I could double check this with EvBatMon .. I just need to waste few extra seconds when I arrive at work and when I leave it .. and I may solve the range increase mystery.

 

[anko]

Mitsubishi in the Netherlands say 22% deterioration within 3.5 years is within manufacturer tolerance. Again they say deterioration will level out after the first few years, but i lost about 3 Ah in the last 10 months or so. I don't see it leveling out just yet.

Their website mentions that deterioration is depending on usage (I have used a fast charger only 3 times in all this time) and is expected to be less than 30% (!) In 5 years time but they also say they do not guarantee this. This statement has been in the website since mid 2014. Don't know about was earlier.

 

[jaapv]

The interesting question though, is how the loss of capacity translates into loss of performance.

 

[elm70]

I did check the strange behaviour that range increase after some hours of car off without charge

I left my car after 11km drive and 10min preheating and EvBatMon reported 75soc
Back in the car after 8h and evbatmon reported 80soc, range did increase from 25 to 28 if I recall right

Evbatmon reported that total voltage did increased from 318 to 322v, max and min cell voltage was equal before and 0.01v difference after 8h rest... Finally battery temperature was 1deg lower after 8h of rest even if outside temperature was higher: 16deg vs 15deg

It sounds to me that my battery pack did develop some higer IR compared to new

One final thing, first time I check with evbatmon my battery capacity was reported to be 36ah, 2 months ago was 35.9 and now is stated 35.8.. So it seems my PHEV lose 0.1Ah every 2/3 months

Personally I think B5 regen brake may not help, so I will now use B0 and see if battery degradation will get better

 

[Grigou]

...

One final thing, first time I check with evbatmon my battery capacity was reported to be 36ah, 2 months ago was 35.9 and now is stated 35.8.. So it seems my PHEV lose 0.1Ah every 2/3 months

Personally I think B5 regen brake may not help, so I will now use B0 and see if battery degradation will get better

Not bad at all.
See Anko's degradation ... and mine is more than 0,1 Ah per month

I think B5 doesn't help too, but I don't want to stay in B0 all the time and B5 is a great thing in mountain !

 

[elm70]

...

One final thing, first time I check with evbatmon my battery capacity was reported to be 36ah, 2 months ago was 35.9 and now is stated 35.8.. So it seems my PHEV lose 0.1Ah every 2/3 months

Personally I think B5 regen brake may not help, so I will now use B0 and see if battery degradation will get better

Not bad at all.
See Anko's degradation ... and mine is more than 0,1 Ah per month

I think B5 doesn't help too, but I don't want to stay in B0 all the time and B5 is a great thing in mountain !

I'm driving on flat roads, so use B0 is not an issue, except I need to move more my right foot .. driving in B5 is more "relaxing" .. possibly I will be back to B5 in winter when snow will be on the streets

The eco leaves indicator now is more prompt to give me 4 leaves using B0, so in theory the car belive I'm driving more efficiently now ... I will keep this B0 for next 6 months .. and I will check if this did help .. even if can't be really a conclusive result

I bet my battery is in relative good condition, especially for the age (my PHEV is a Dec 2013 with 125.000 km), since the previous owner did damage the charger and hewas possibly running all time in petrol/hybrid mode, possibly always in normal / B2 mode .. plus it has been sitting unsold for 4/5 months with SOC in ideal 30%

Anyhow .. I just check the video of the PHEV battery disassembly ... replace the PHEV in car battery does not sound something easy and not really accessible with home tools ... so ... the only possible solution is to have an additional battery in parallel to the car one ... something discussed some time ago ...

Still .. on my daily commute I have 10 to 20km spare range ... so for me & for now, I don't need to mess with my PHEV
When my range will be so bad that I need to use ICE for my daily car usage, then I will consider this option which we did discuss some months ago on this forum. Ideally the PHEV battery can have still 65% battery capacity left after 10y .. so ... maybe I will never have to mess with it .. but ... for how battery degradation is moving .. not sure I will get 65% in 7y from now

 

[GreyBigFoot]

Well mine has just lost 0.5Ah within the first month of usage... About 2000kms of daily home charges and 2000kms with only two fast charges.

Before that it has just been sitting at the dealer (ex-demo car) for about 8 months and done about 700kms (from new) within that time .

MMCS says, I'm charging about 9kWh (max seen 9.4kWh) per charge from 10Ah, which if I'm not wrong should be around 27Ah.

Not seeing any noticeable loss of performance, I'm still getting about 50kms from the gess-o-meter each morning which translates to 48kms of real EV autonomy.

Everyday charges are regularly above 37Ah which is about 105-107% of the reported total capacity.

Probably the total capacity calculations don't take into account a balanced cells pack.

 

[GreyBigFoot]

About regeneration... Too much paddling may not be the most efficient way of driving.

The car does have a lot of inertia and seems to hold better it's SOC keeping it mostly in B0.

B1/B2 are great for long downhills.

B5 is good for low speed driving/bumper to bumper traffic... Nice for one pedal drive, but doesn't seems to regenerate much at low speeds.

From what I've seem braking always implies some kind of regeneration, and hard braking seems to have the same effect of B5.