Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a problem?

[jaapv]

...

Let's assume a 95% of PHEV life used in EV mode ... so the ICE wear is almost nothing ...

...

That may be true on average of first generation owners, but I suspect that it will be increasingly less true of second and third hand owners of a PHEV. First generation owners tend to be idealists who are trying to save the planet. The depreciation on a PHEV is quite high and second generation owners will tend to be more interested in the purchase price and will be less concerned with avoiding burning petrol.

Idealists trying to save the planet? Sorry, that gave me a good laugh . They were business owners saving taxes...

 

[maby]

.....

That may be true on average of first generation owners, but I suspect that it will be increasingly less true of second and third hand owners of a PHEV. First generation owners tend to be idealists who are trying to save the planet. The depreciation on a PHEV is quite high and second generation owners will tend to be more interested in the purchase price and will be less concerned with avoiding burning petrol.

Idealists trying to save the planet? Sorry, that gave me a good laugh . They were business owners saving taxes...

Possibly so - but I did say "tend to be..." - most here seem to be more interested in low petrol consumption than low taxes.... I certainly don't include myself in that group - I guess that 95% of the miles on our PHEV have been done on petrol and the engine is definitely sounding like you would expect the engine in a conventional car with 40,000 miles on the clock to sound.

My point is that the second hand PHEVs with little or no warranty left on them are going to sell at significant depreciation and the customer base is likely to consist more of people looking for a cheap, decent size estate car with some 4x4 capability than idealists looking for minimum CO2 output. Add to that the fact that purchasers of cheap second hand cars are a lot less likely to have access to power for charging the batteries, and I suspect that the majority of four and five year old PHEVs sold on the second hand market will end up being used as estate car sized Priuses.

 

[Daff]

I am curious what you mean when you say the engine sounds like what you'd expect a 40,000 miles engine to sound like. What does it sound like? I'd expect an engine of 40,000 miles to sound the same as a new one if it had been properly maintained!

Steve

 

[maby]

I am curious what you mean when you say the engine sounds like what you'd expect a 40,000 miles engine to sound like. What does it sound like? I'd expect an engine of 40,000 miles to sound the same as a new one if it had been properly maintained!

Steve

No, it will always be noisier - even with standard manufacturer's maintenance, it will be beginning to show some signs of wear and it is not the virtually silent engine that it was at a couple of thousand miles. The first couple of miles on a cold morning are a little bit "tappety" and flooring it off the lights produces just a hint of rumble in the background. Three years ago, it was difficult to know if the engine in our PHEV was running - now it is easy to hear it.

 

[elm70]

.....

That may be true on average of first generation owners, but I suspect that it will be increasingly less true of second and third hand owners of a PHEV. First generation owners tend to be idealists who are trying to save the planet. The depreciation on a PHEV is quite high and second generation owners will tend to be more interested in the purchase price and will be less concerned with avoiding burning petrol.

Idealists trying to save the planet? Sorry, that gave me a good laugh . They were business owners saving taxes...

Possibly so - but I did say "tend to be..." - most here seem to be more interested in low petrol consumption than low taxes.... I certainly don't include myself in that group - I guess that 95% of the miles on our PHEV have been done on petrol and the engine is definitely sounding like you would expect the engine in a conventional car with 40,000 miles on the clock to sound.

My point is that the second hand PHEVs with little or no warranty left on them are going to sell at significant depreciation and the customer base is likely to consist more of people looking for a cheap, decent size estate car with some 4x4 capability than idealists looking for minimum CO2 output. Add to that the fact that purchasers of cheap second hand cars are a lot less likely to have access to power for charging the batteries, and I suspect that the majority of four and five year old PHEVs sold on the second hand market will end up being used as estate car sized Priuses.

I see the JAAPV point ...

I got my PHEV 2nd hand .. and one of the reason for take the PHEV was for saving money on fuel.

The guy that had as new, did care so much to save the planet that he did damage the charger and did not bother to replace it or charge anymore the PHEV

Who get the PHEV 2nd hand ... possibly are people more on the budget, and they may take more attention of fuel costs.

A cheap 2nd hand PHEV make a perfect city car for commute, with the ability to be used as normal car too.

People interested on SUV and 4x4 .. possibly will not look so much the Outlander ... since as off road our Outlander is not really tall enough for the job .. and the EV power also is not really ideal too.

 

[anko]

When I checked early may, my Ah number was 29.5. Now, little over one month later, is is 28.9 :shock: :shock: :shock:

This was some 7 months ago. Today, Januari 2nd, 2018 it is down to 26.2 Ah. Lost close to 10% since then.

Best wishes to all

 

[elm70]

Happy new year

26.2Ah

It is incredible that degradation does not slow down with time

How many charges are reported by WatchDogPHEV?

My car also lose Ah quite fast was 36Ah 1y ago when I first check, and now is down to 34.6Ah, quite a steady 0.1 a month

 

[anko]

Happy new year

Same to you!

How many charges are reported by WatchDogPHEV?

Don't know, as there is no WiFi version of PHEV WatchDog yet. But my own tools tell me about 4900 or so. But these are also many partial charges.

 

[zzcoopej]

How many charges ... my own tools tell me about 4900 or so

Really? That's over 4 charges a day every day for 3 years! Surely heavy Regen must be counted as charging if 4900 is not a typo?

 

[anko]

Really? That's over 4 charges a day every day for 3 years! Surely heavy Regen must be counted as charging if 4900 is not a typo?

On December 29th it was 4936, so really ;-)

It is more like 3 times a day over 4 years . But like I said, these are not full charges. Makes me wonder, perhaps it even counts 'charging for preheating', which is not really charging, unless you let it sit there for a while after recharging..

 

[elm70]

I don't believe Regen is counted .... at least most of them are not .. just puzzle me that in one of the Trip report from WatchDog, the Dog did show a 0.1Ah charging happening

About pre-heat ... I think these possible do count as charge/partial charge ... since if the car is fully charged, and then pre-heat start ... the charging process is initiated again

Also .. based on one of your charging graph ... if the PHEV pause the charging for balancing ... possibly these are counted as two (or more if there is more then 1 balancing pause) charging

Anyhow ... higher charging count then expected is normal ... everybody is surprised by the charging numbers reported.

In my case the "PHEV dog", reported a bit over 1000 charges ... which is also quite high, since the previous owner did stop to charge at some point .. and I'm having my Outlander since around 14 months .. an I only charge daily ... so I would have expected no more then 600 charges on my PHEV

Anyhow ... will be interesting to compile battery degradation with age, km and charging counts ... still .. all need to be taken with caution ... since battery health report is also a bit sick ... there is the story of the Australian PHEV which after recondition his PHEV gone form 80% back to 100% condition .. for then lose 0.7Ah in few days after reconditions .. still a big improvement over 80% status ... in my case ... based on the ow charge that I can put on my car .. I believe the 91% condition is a bit optimistic

 

[Trex]

When I checked early may, my Ah number was 29.5. Now, little over one month later, is is 28.9 :shock: :shock: :shock:

This was some 7 months ago. Today, Januari 2nd, 2018 it is down to 26.2 Ah. Lost close to 10% since then.

Best wishes to all

You really have to stop all that monitoring anko. It will give you a ulcer.

But seriously you probably need to start pushing harder through your dealer to start getting some answers to this problem.

Or stop towing. :mrgreen:

Regards Trex.

ps Best wishes to you too.

 

[marcel]

I've been driving the outlander for more than 120.000 km and about 80 % of that was electric. I fully recharged the battery twice on a regular working day.

I'm a very conscious driver. Partly because I'm worried about climate change but also because my boss pays for the electricity and I have to pay for the petrol. So I pay close attention to the battery performance every drive.

Since the last 4 months I noticed a steep decline in battery performance and not only because of the winter. Compared to earlier winters it has definitely less range. I'm now getting only 25 km and that is without AC and in close distance to large vehicles while driving.

I also noticed that earlier when I complete empty the battery and then charge it only 7 kwh whereas a year ago it would still be 8.2 kwh on average.

What do you recommend me to do? The car is from feb 2014.
I'm dutch, btw.

 

[Trex]

I've been driving the outlander for more than 120.000 km and about 80 % of that was electric. I fully recharged the battery twice on a regular working day.

I'm a very conscious driver. Partly because I'm worried about climate change but also because my boss pays for the electricity and I have to pay for the petrol. So I pay close attention to the battery performance every drive.

Since the last 4 months I noticed a steep decline in battery performance and not only because of the winter. Compared to earlier winters it has definitely less range. I'm now getting only 25 km and that is without AC and in close distance to large vehicles while driving.

I also noticed that earlier when I complete empty the battery and then charge it only 7 kwh whereas a year ago it would still be 8.2 kwh on average.

What do you recommend me to do? The car is from feb 2014.
I'm dutch, btw.

Hi marcel,

You sure do get around. :lol:

Like I said over in the other thread get to your dealer and get it tested.

The dealer has the "proper" tools for diagnostics including access to Mitsubishi Japan where it is designed and made. They are the experts (Mitsubishi Japan) on this car. We are just trying to get heads around it. :roll:

Regards Trex.

 

[Hypermiler]

Marcel
Out of interest, have you also noticed a decline in the effectiveness of regen? Does b5 feel a lot less strong (even with depleted battery) and where does your regen display needle get to if you drive at say 70kph, select b5 and then brake?
Thanks
H

 

[Bert]

... there is the story of the Australian PHEV which after recondition his PHEV gone form 80% back to 100% condition .. for then lose 0.7Ah in few days after reconditions .. still a big improvement over 80% status ...

Hahaha, that's probably me

Yes, the batteries capacity went back from 80.5% SoH to 99.7% with 38Ah. The first drive I did was 59km on pure EV, half of that on a highway. The very next day though I had already lost 0.1Ah again and until now (3 months later), I'm back to under 90% SoH... The full story is on Youtube if you haven't seen it already https://www.youtube.com/unpluggedev

 

[anko]

Hahaha, that's probably me

I had no idea you were amongst us, uhhh .... 'Bert' :lol: Good to see you here.

 

[Trex]

Hahaha, that's probably me

Yes, the batteries capacity went back from 80.5% SoH to 99.7% with 38Ah. The first drive I did was 59km on pure EV, half of that on a highway. The very next day though I had already lost 0.1Ah again and until now (3 months later), I'm back to under 90% SoH... The full story is on Youtube if you haven't seen it already https://www.youtube.com/unpluggedev

So you are that bloke that I was asked about in this:

Hi Trex,

Welcome back

I have been following this channel on Youtube, where Andy from Australia has been trying to test and address this very issue issue.

Hope I can post this Link.

Hope you find Andy's Videos as interesting to watch and follow as I do.

I pick up my 2018 PHEV GT model tomorrow.

Can hardly wait.

Hi PHEV07,

Sorry been tied up with work.

Yes I have seen some of his videos when one of my sons noticed him on Youtube last year. "Andy" is definitely not from Australia from memory. I think he is from Germany and moved here recently. He seemed too worry too much about things and "whinging" for my liking. I remember watching him going to a beach near where I live and saying things like "Oh, don't know whether the PHEV can go on here" or something to that effect. We have gone on the same beach in 2wds when we were younger going surfing. :lol:
Now I am spoilt with 4wds.

I guess he will learn.

But he also the same bloke that did have something like 20% so called "degradation" or some such and had it "pumped" back up to close to 100% from memory.

And then he was still worrying. :roll:

Regards Trex.

So do we call you Bert or Andy or did PHEV07 make a mistake? :?

Did I remember correctly that you are from Germany originally? Been here long?

Hate to think my memory is going on me.

 

[Trex]

So on Evbatmon I noticed that I am down to a battery condition showing 76.68%.

I have to go for my yearly service next week, coming up 4yr old soon , and will get my usual battery report printed off.

There I will discuss with Mitsi where I go from here. But I can assure everybody that this in no way worries me at this moment.

This to me is not a problem but just another challenge.

One way or another, I will get it sorted. I have complete faith in my abilities with these sort of challenges. I am looking forward to what I will learn.

Should be easy compared to some of the other challenges I face in my business.

Regards Trex.

Ps Will do another range test soon and see how that side of it is going because the wife, who mainly drives the PHEV, is not noticing any difference with the degradation.

 

[elm70]

1 Year ago ... when I got my working OBD2 adapter, I did read 36Ah or ~94% SOH

Now ... I can see a progress decline of SOH ... is quite regular that every month my battery capacity lose 0.1Ah ... now I'm down to 34.5Ah or ~90% ... so 4% lost in 12 months

I don't believe the degradation of battery is a software glitch in the PHEV car ... I believe they did implement a relative reliabale system for detect the battery capacity left and estimate properly the SOH

So .. battery degradation is real ... and it is a problem

Based on the quite good condition of my PHEV when I got (3y old and 120k km) ... I guess these battery have longer life when used in pure hybrid mode .. but not when used from full charge to full discharge (30% real) in EV mode

PS: The only solution for the problem .. is the rapid development of EV battery .. which should bring higher capacity and low price in the next few years ... battery price are sinking since years ... Tesla has already the possibility to produce for only 150USD 1Kwh battery .. and this price is looking to sink under 100USD per Kwh in the next months/years ... so ... in 2 or 3 years time replace a 12kwh should possibly cost more in garage labour then not in material ... and should open the door to a 2nd life for our PHEV ... which at the moment is getting more and more close to a traditional hybrid car then not a EV car with short but useable range