Drive battery degradation . Houston, do we have a problem?

[jaapv]

It won't make much difference, the battery will get depleted anyway. Better to hit "Charge" well before you start on that hill and leave it there.

 

[Futuresystem]

It won't make much difference, the battery will get depleted anyway. Better to hit "Charge" well before you start on that hill and leave it there.

Thanks, I'll do that.

Any hints on EvBatMon to get it to work first time, every time?

Cheers.

 

[elm70]

It won't make much difference, the battery will get depleted anyway. Better to hit "Charge" well before you start on that hill and leave it there.

Thanks, I'll do that.

Any hints on EvBatMon to get it to work first time, every time?

Cheers.

EvBatMon ... works fine to me

You need to have the right OBD2 adapter, else it will not work

 

[Esparza]

Are you sure that the regen reduction is caused by battery temperature and not the state of charge? I've never noticed regen reduction even at ambient temperature of 40ºC, the battery cooling system works fine and keeps it under 37ºC. Try it again with the app to see the temperature.
Even pressing Charge i will try to get to the top without battery to maximize the regen capabilities.

 

[user 1877]

Just invested in EvBatMon and a wifi OBD adapter recommended for the iPhone. All worked fine. However with a previous car, a different adapter would flatten the battery if left plugged in. The adapter I have purchased for the PHEV claims it goes into sleep mode so will not flatten the battery.

Does anyone have any experience of leaving an iCarputer i610 wifi adapter plugged into the car?

 

[anko]

I have noticed that lately, the charging process is interrupted (for balancing?) twice per charge cycle. The below pattern seems rather consistent. I wonder if this is related to the deterioration of my battery.

 

[HHL]

I have noticed that too. A few times when I looked at my WEMO app while it was charging, it only took about 80W when it should have been 2.2kW, however, checking back later it had resumed at the full rate.
My battery conditiion says 87.6%, however, on a full charge, that is from 0 or 1 bar on the battery indicator, it still takes up to 9.6kWh on an overnight charge, this is much the same as when I got the car more than 2 years ago. I have not had the "battery smoothing" done.

 

[anko]

..., it still takes up to 9.6kWh on an overnight charge, this is much the same as when I got the car more than 2 years ago.

This full charge was only 7.28 kWh, which is also common for me these days :evil:

 

[elm70]

I guess the only reason for stop a charging process is for balance the battery

Possibly it has been implemented that if the difference between the lowest cell voltage and the max one is too high, the charging process get stopped.

PS: Quite a difference between your two full charging 7.3kwh vs 9.6kwh ... I think it will be more significant if both are numbers extracted from the MMCS ... in my case I get around 8.x ... but I can check it very seldom, since normally I never fully discharge my battery .. 99% of my trips are in pure EV mode ..

PS: AAout battery unbalanced... I often see up to 0.02v / 0.025v difference ... in these condition the lowest cell is #125 (or less often #121) ..... but for some other report that I see from anko, it is looking like your battery pack got equally aged .. that is quite a "surprise" ... I would expect that with age the battery get more easily unbalanced

PPS : In 3 to 5 years time the battery technology should bring on the marked battery 3 times more energy dense at a fraction of price ... so ... if our car can make it .. then maybe we can give a 2nd and better life to our car ... with possibly over 100km EV range :ugeek:

 

[elm70]

..., it still takes up to 9.6kWh on an overnight charge, this is much the same as when I got the car more than 2 years ago.

This full charge was only 7.28 kWh, which is also common for me these days :evil:

In cold temperature (around zero and below) I think the charging capacity is reduced by 5%

Possibly in summer time you should gain back "above" 7.6kwh

 

[anko]

PS: Quite a difference between your two full charging 7.3kwh vs 9.6kwh ... I think it will be more significant if both are numbers extracted from the MMCS

Why would that be?

 

[elm70]

PS: Quite a difference between your two full charging 7.3kwh vs 9.6kwh ... I think it will be more significant if both are numbers extracted from the MMCS

Why would that be?

My maths tell me :

If 9.6kwh are associated to 87.6% battery condition

7.3kwh implies your battery condition is only 66.4% (which I don't believe it is accurate)

As well .. 9,6kwh @ 87.6% condition means almost 11kwh charge at 100% condition .. since we can charge only 70% ... it implies a potential total battery capacity of 15.7kwh ... which would means 27% energy lost in the charging process .. which sounds too much

So ... both numbers show me that since have been taken from two independent systems, they are not comparable .. only common reference for compare numbers are the "cost" report by the MMCS .. that with a setting of 1 unit cost per kwh .. or 0.1 unit cost per kwh ..we can get easy kwh number from our MMCS

PS: 7.3kwh from your battery sounds "reasonable" ... this means ~10.4kwh battery capacity .. accounting 10% energy lost in the charging process ... it make 9.5kwh ... so .. a battery condition of around 76% ... if we assume 7% energy loss in charging, we are at battery condition level of 80% .. still we have an additional error .. since we don't know if you battery was at lowest 26% charge level or maybe above 30% ...

 

[HHL]

I guess the only reason for stop a charging process is for balance the battery

Possibly it has been implemented that if the difference between the lowest cell voltage and the max one is too high, the charging process get stopped.

PS: Quite a difference between your two full charging 7.3kwh vs 9.6kwh ... I think it will be more significant if both are numbers extracted from the MMCS ... in my case I get around 8.x ... but I can check it very seldom, since normally I never fully discharge my battery .. 99% of my trips are in pure EV mode ..

PS: AAout battery unbalanced... I often see up to 0.02v / 0.025v difference ... in these condition the lowest cell is #125 (or less often #121) ..... but for some other report that I see from anko, it is looking like your battery pack got equally aged .. that is quite a "surprise" ... I would expect that with age the battery get more easily unbalanced

PPS : In 3 to 5 years time the battery technology should bring on the marked battery 3 times more energy dense at a fraction of price ... so ... if our car can make it .. then maybe we can give a 2nd and better life to our car ... with possibly over 100km EV range :ugeek:

My number is from the MMCS. I also use a WEMO Insight switch that measures power usage and it usually indicates about 200Wh more.
The interesting thing is that the brochure for the current model PHEV here is Australia states that it will use "up to 9.8kWh to recharge", so it is not all that different from my 3 year old car. Mostly my recharges are between 8 and 9 kWh though, the last one that saw 9.3 had the battery discharged to 25.5% according to the Watchdog app, and the engine had just started as I pulled into my garage.

As for a bigger battery in the future, it all depends how much it will cost for other bits as the car ages and whether it's worth the risk spending the money. I could imagine any out of warranty parts, say a charger or motor controller would surely be priced to make your eyes water if you had to buy them from a dealer...........

 

[anko]

If 9.6kwh are associated to 87.6% battery condition

I did not mention 87.6%. The 9.6 kWh was when new, so at 100%. Dividing 7.2 now by 9.6 gives 75%. According to the BMU my battery sits at 70,5%. Not so far off.

 

[elm70]

If 9.6kwh are associated to 87.6% battery condition

I did not mention 87.6%. The 9.6 kWh was when new, so at 100%. Dividing 7.2 now by 9.6 gives 75%. According to the BMU my battery sits at 70,5%. Not so far off.

9.6kwh and 87.6% .... are HHL battery numbers

Which he did clarified are related to recharge from 25.5%

That makes still a theoretical total capacity of 14.7kwh .. or 84% efficiency rate on charging .. 84% charging efficiency does sounds low to me ... I would bet that HHL PHEV battery pack is in better condition than the 87.6% reported by the BMU

As well .. if 9.6kw was your charging capacity when new .. it means that either we have two different scales .. or your PHEV battery as new was as good the HHL battery now (possibly 4% difference .. since discharge down to 25.5% is not common ... for discharge below 30% it is needed to have a very soft power usage on the last km .. else ICE kick in at 30% mark)

Anyhow .. in my 1st maths :

7.3kwh implies your battery condition is only 66.4% (which I don't believe it is accurate)

So .. considering this was derived from HHL number, which was from 25.5% charge ... then I would say that numbers are not so off between your kwh and HHL .. so your battery status is possibly around 70% as reported by BMU

PS: I'm wondering if the charging efficiency is higher if PHEV is charged at 10A vs 15A ... else my BMU number of 93% battery status is very optimistic .. since I don't remember any recent charging reported by MMCS over 9kwh.

 

[elm70]

...

As for a bigger battery in the future, it all depends how much it will cost for other bits as the car ages and whether it's worth the risk spending the money. I could imagine any out of warranty parts, say a charger or motor controller would surely be priced to make your eyes water if you had to buy them from a dealer...........

Let's assume a 95% of PHEV life used in EV mode ... so the ICE wear is almost nothing ...

Electric motors have the only wearing part .. the bearing .. which should last for many km and many years .. as well in case are not too expensive to be replaced

My only concern ... is about the permanent magnet ... I'm wondering if these could lose some magnetic properties ... but I bet it should be very mild lost .. and just cause less top power and a fraction of less efficiency

Only thing that is ageing in our PHEV is the battery .. and if the replacement will be better and cheaper ... our car I believe can have a even better 2nd live then not on the 1st

 

[jaapv]

...

As for a bigger battery in the future, it all depends how much it will cost for other bits as the car ages and whether it's worth the risk spending the money. I could imagine any out of warranty parts, say a charger or motor controller would surely be priced to make your eyes water if you had to buy them from a dealer...........

Let's assume a 95% of PHEV life used in EV mode ... so the ICE wear is almost nothing ...

Electric motors have the only wearing part .. the bearing .. which should last for many km and many years .. as well in case are not too expensive to be replaced

My only concern ... is about the permanent magnet ... I'm wondering if these could lose some magnetic properties ... but I bet it should be very mild lost .. and just cause less top power and a fraction of less efficiency

Only thing that is ageing in our PHEV is the battery .. and if the replacement will be better and cheaper ... our car I believe can have a even better 2nd live then not on the 1st

Dein Wort in Gottes Ohr!

 

[maby]

...

Let's assume a 95% of PHEV life used in EV mode ... so the ICE wear is almost nothing ...

...

That may be true on average of first generation owners, but I suspect that it will be increasingly less true of second and third hand owners of a PHEV. First generation owners tend to be idealists who are trying to save the planet. The depreciation on a PHEV is quite high and second generation owners will tend to be more interested in the purchase price and will be less concerned with avoiding burning petrol.

 

[anko]

7.3kwh implies your battery condition is only 66.4% (which I don't believe it is accurate)

I don't get it. Total capacity when new is 12 kWh. 70 - 75% s usable. This is 8.4 to 9 kWh. That means 7.3 kWh is between 81 and 86%. Take into account charging losses and you get close to the 70.5% reported by my BMU ECU.

I don't understand why you want to get to 66.4%, by combining numbers from two different cars and two different charging infrastructures. Maybe HHL has more losses in the wiring. Who will tell.

 

[elm70]

Used my maths on my car ... it confirm my believe that my my battery status report is way too optimistic

The PHEVwDog reported at end of my usage that SOC was 37.4% (less then 4km range left, this is another problem in my PHEV) ... anyhow

MMCS reported it has been charger only 7.0kwh ... ok charging did start like 8h later then end of usage .. but even if voltage did maybe bounce back to higher level and SOC jump to 40% ... does not make much of the difference

If 7kwh are needed to bring the car to 100%, from 37.4% .... even with ideal charging process ... my battery capacity is just 11.2kwh .. that is ideally only 90% condition ,, vs 93% condition reported by PHEVwDog

Maybe my car has an old firmware (I'm not sure mine ever got a firmware update before leaving NL, and in PL I'm sure they did nothing) ... so .. EV range, and BMU reports maybe are different then on other PHEV

PS: If I assume 10% losses on charging .. and 5% less capacity due to 0deg temperature ... :
7kwh consumed -> 6.4kwh real charge
6.4kw from 38.4% to 100% -> 10.2kwh total
10.2kwh = 95% due to 0 deg -> 10.7kwh toal
deducted battery status = 86% / 89% (using 12kwh or 12.4kwh as original capacity)