Battery Charge/Save Buttons

[ThudnBlundr]

All I asked originally was, "Please show me a link to research that proves that this is true for our PHEV. I have still not seen any scientific proof in 3 years of ownership." You can argue all you want, but you haven't answered the question. And then you get angry because I point out you haven't answered the question. Do you truly believe that a 2-ton 4WD SUV with 2 electric motors behaves exactly the same as a 1WD chopper with a single electric motor? Or are you saying that a PHEV behaves exactly the same as an ICE-driven car? Do you know what, I'd be happy with proof a car that has a similar drivetrain to our PHEV.

And I was comparing the PRINCIPLE, where someone actually bothered to postulate a suggestion and then do the experiments to come up with figures and the answer. They used the scientific method. Or would you rather just believe that one way is better than the other? Simply saying, "it's always true" is not an answer. I agree that it MIGHT be true, but without proof it's a supposition, or a belief. Maybe it's a matter of faith for you to believe it's right; if so, fine, you can believe what you want. I'd rather have proof.

 

[Trex]

All I asked originally was, "Please show me a link to research that proves that this is true for our PHEV. I have still not seen any scientific proof in 3 years of ownership." You can argue all you want, but you haven't answered the question. And then you get angry because I point out you haven't answered the question. Do you truly believe that a 2-ton 4WD SUV with 2 electric motors behaves exactly the same as a 1WD chopper with a single electric motor? Or are you saying that a PHEV behaves exactly the same as an ICE-driven car? Do you know what, I'd be happy with proof a car that has a similar drivetrain to our PHEV.

And I was comparing the PRINCIPLE, where someone actually bothered to postulate a suggestion and then do the experiments to come up with figures and the answer. They used the scientific method. Or would you rather just believe that one way is better than the other? Simply saying, "it's always true" is not an answer. I agree that it MIGHT be true, but without proof it's a supposition, or a belief. Maybe it's a matter of faith for you to believe it's right; if so, fine, you can believe what you want. I'd rather have proof.

Mitsubishi has given us reason to believe they have scientific proof that we need to know that parallel mode is where we should try to run our petrol engine by just looking at this graph and reading what they say under it. :roll: :lol: :lol: Geez they would not have bothered to put a lock up clutch with it's added complexity and weight disadvantages if they didn't surely ?

 

[greendwarf]

G'day Trex - nice to have some clarity on this from "the old days".

You'd think after 7 years of discussion that this subject might have died a death but too many newbies. :roll:

Glad to see "down under" on the new UK travel green list, even you won't let us in yet! :lol:

 

[ThudnBlundr]

Thanks for that (and the condescending tone) but it doesn't really answer the question I asked. It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low. So indeed Mitsubishi (and Chevy with the Volt - are there others?) wouldn't have put a direct drive into the "gearbox" to make it more efficient. However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

Sorry if I'm still a stupid newbie after 3½ years of ownership and studying the intricacies of the PHEV, but no one has yet been able to answer my question. I'm perfectly happy to accept that the statement may well be right, but no one has yet shown evidence for this PHEV. Maybe I'm missing something obvious (it has been known) but if it's such a stupid question and a simple answer, maybe people like greendwarf would like to answer it themselves instead of belittling people they know very little about.

 

[Trex]

G'day Trex - nice to have some clarity on this from "the old days".

You'd think after 7 years of discussion that this subject might have died a death but too many newbies. :roll:

Glad to see "down under" on the new UK travel green list, even you won't let us in yet! :lol:

G'day Mr greendwarf Sir ,

I am sure we will let you Poms back in someday. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Trex]

Thanks for that (and the condescending tone) but it doesn't really answer the question I asked. It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low. So indeed Mitsubishi (and Chevy with the Volt - are there others?) wouldn't have put a direct drive into the "gearbox" to make it more efficient. However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

Sorry if I'm still a stupid newbie after 3½ years of ownership and studying the intricacies of the PHEV, but no one has yet been able to answer my question. I'm perfectly happy to accept that the statement may well be right, but no one has yet shown evidence for this PHEV. Maybe I'm missing something obvious (it has been known) but if it's such a stupid question and a simple answer, maybe people like greendwarf would like to answer it themselves instead of belittling people they know very little about.

Ok all the graph and words underneath I think tells us is "parallel" mode is where we should try to run the petrol engine.

Physics of our time from my research says ICE engines are lucky to be approx 40% efficient when they are in a specific area of operation where that throttle valve is fully open to reduce pumping losses or "induction" losses. Electric motors in our phevs are approx double that. Running a ICE at idle is very inefficient, that is why I think so many cars these days including my son's Mazda 3 include a mode to shut down the petrol engine when stopped at the traffic lights.

Now in answer to this "PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question." I would say the Phev is most efficient when it travels in EV mode at a "constant" slow speed to get the most range out of our drive battery. But if you have to run that petrol motor in the Phev on trips that include higher speeds where parallel mode can happen all the data I have seen including Mitsubishi's says parallel mode is more efficient to be running that ICE. By following that advice of avoiding series mode to run the petrol motor my own fuel consumption figures in both my Phevs have reduced from approx 8lts/100ks to approx 7lts/100ks on trips away. I will leave it up to the individual to decide whether pressing buttons for that gain is worth it.

Hope that helps.

 

[greendwarf]

No offence intended ThudnBlundr - as typed it was directed at Trex, who like me has been around since the early days when the car was very much an unknown for everyone. Buried in the archives are lots of graphs and other stats, which might help answer your question, like the one he dug out but, I accept they can be difficult to find - especially if you don't know quite what you are looking for.

I was merely thanking him for the info and expressing the view that it is surprising that even after 7 years the issue still needs proving to relatively new owners. Unfortunately, many of the contributors to the original discussions are no longer active in the forum.

 

[kpetrov]

It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low.
However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

The graph doesn't say that quote "if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low."
Exactly the opposite. It says over 65km/h it will run in parallel mode. Under 65km/h will run in series mode. Not because series is more efficient but cause parallel is unavailable at that point.
Otherwise like Trex have said EV power is most efficient in our vehicles and slower and steadier better it is. The question was when is more efficient to run the ICE though.

 

[user 3575]

All I asked originally was, "Please show me a link to research that proves that this is true for our PHEV. I have still not seen any scientific proof in 3 years of ownership." You can argue all you want, but you haven't answered the question. And then you get angry because I point out you haven't answered the question. Do you truly believe that a 2-ton 4WD SUV with 2 electric motors behaves exactly the same as a 1WD chopper with a single electric motor? Or are you saying that a PHEV behaves exactly the same as an ICE-driven car? Do you know what, I'd be happy with proof a car that has a similar drivetrain to our PHEV.

And I was comparing the PRINCIPLE, where someone actually bothered to postulate a suggestion and then do the experiments to come up with figures and the answer. They used the scientific method. Or would you rather just believe that one way is better than the other? Simply saying, "it's always true" is not an answer. I agree that it MIGHT be true, but without proof it's a supposition, or a belief. Maybe it's a matter of faith for you to believe it's right; if so, fine, you can believe what you want. I'd rather have proof.

Mitsubishi has given us reason to believe they have scientific proof that we need to know that parallel mode is where we should try to run our petrol engine by just looking at this graph and reading what they say under it. :roll: :lol: :lol: Geez they would not have bothered to put a lock up clutch with it's added complexity and weight disadvantages if they didn't surely ?

Is there any data available for the later 2.4 models, when towing last year we got stuck behind a woman driving at 30 mph, unfortunately due to erratic driving we could no overtake for many miles, we had to stay in charge mode as we had little SOC in reserve, we did noticed our average fuel consumption mileage was slightly increasing, however, we were not expecting is our SOC range starting to increase ?

 

[ThudnBlundr]

It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low.
However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

The graph doesn't say that quote "if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low."
Exactly the opposite. It says over 65km/h it will run in parallel mode. Under 65km/h will run in series mode. Not because series is more efficient but cause parallel is unavailable at that point.
Otherwise like Trex have said EV power is most efficient in our vehicles and slower and steadier better it is. The question was when is more efficient to run the ICE though.

I did indeed get my Parallel / Series mixed up. D'oh! But I think most people realised that it was a mistake rather than a fundamental misunderstanding of the PHEV and thus didn't feel the need to lecture me

 

[greendwarf]

I assume you are referring to the guessometer. If so, then I have also noticed this, although mainly where there is obvious coasting, i.e. "free" miles. If you are driving at around 30mph there is likely to be quite a lot of short stretches of coasting on overrun which you wouldn't necessarily notice but gradually these build up to fool the guessometer that you can continue getting "free" mileage and so up the range estimate.

I particularly notice it when I dare to cross the river in Lundun to the wilds of Hendon. As there is a gradual incline involved, I can't quite do the round trip (with a lengthy stop in Hendon) on one charge. So the last couple of miles are with the ICE, despite needing less electricity on the decline. However, after charging the guessometer seems to think I have managed to find some magic way of extending the range on this return journey and thinks I can replicate that distance again!

 

[kpetrov]

It says that if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low.
However it doesn't say that the PHEV is more efficient at higher speeds than at lower speeds, which was my initial question.

The graph doesn't say that quote "if you are going to run at higher speeds, it is more efficient to run the PHEV in Series mode if the battery is low."
Exactly the opposite. It says over 65km/h it will run in parallel mode. Under 65km/h will run in series mode. Not because series is more efficient but cause parallel is unavailable at that point.
Otherwise like Trex have said EV power is most efficient in our vehicles and slower and steadier better it is. The question was when is more efficient to run the ICE though.

I did indeed get my Parallel / Series mixed up. D'oh! But I think most people realised that it was a mistake rather than a fundamental misunderstanding of the PHEV and thus didn't feel the need to lecture me

Honestly I couldn't realize it was a mistake since you are arguing and asking for specifically related to PHEV prove that the ICE is more efficient in parallel mode.
Seems you are acknowledging it but arguing for the sport of it.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

You really don't get it, do you? :roll: At higher speeds, the PHEV is more economical in Parallel mode than Series mode: Mitsubishi designed it that way. I have never, ever argued that that is not the case. But you're arguing that Parallel mode (at high speed, with all the extra forms of drag that that involves), is more efficient than driving at lower speeds in Series mode. I've asked for proof - you've provided none. As I've said many, many times, you may well be right, but you've no proof, only belief. And yet you continue to "argue" that your belief trumps concrete proof :roll:

 

[Fjpod]

I'll add my two cents here... And I realize all of what I say is anecdotal.

I've also not been convinced that parallel is more economical than series, but I may be coming around. I use a scan guage on long trips which gives me an instantaneous mpg, and rpms... Two things that Mitsubishi doesn't give.

I try to drive steadily, keeping rpms steady... When in parallel, instantaneous mpg drops about 25 percent compared to series... But you are gaining battery power... Assuming you will need it later, I think it works out a little better.

Last week I took a long trip... About 580 miles each way. And I only had the opportunity to charge once in each direction at the beginning. It was all interstate highway, except maybe 10 miles on each end of the trip.

I found the trouble with running your battery down to zero was that in the event of a traffic slowdown, you had no reserve for stop and go. Additionally, the ICE would go on and off every two minutes or so. So I tried the charge button a few times... Charging up to about 75 percent, then running it down, but I found this failed me a few times when traffic slowed down and I didn't have enough battery reserve.

So I just left the charge button on full time, traveling at about 72 mph. I began to notice as the battery got up to 75 percent SOC, my instantaneous mpg improved by at least 25 percent... From about 21 mpg on level ground, to 28 to 30 mpg. Additionally, as the battery indicator got closer to 80 or 85 percent full, the ICE would turn off for about one minute.... But the ICE was running 95 percent of the time.

At least 6 times on my return trip the battery power came in very handy during traffic slow downs. Overall, my mpg averaging 72 mph, using this strategy for the 580 Mile return trip, was 30.9 I'm certain it would have been a lot better if I had kept my speed between 60 and 65 mpg.

Has anyone else tried this strategy on long trips with only limited wall charging?

 

[kpetrov]

You really don't get it, do you? :roll: At higher speeds, the PHEV is more economical in Parallel mode than Series mode: Mitsubishi designed it that way. I have never, ever argued that that is not the case. But you're arguing that Parallel mode (at high speed, with all the extra forms of drag that that involves), is more efficient than driving at lower speeds in Series mode. I've asked for proof - you've provided none. As I've said many, many times, you may well be right, but you've no proof, only belief. And yet you continue to "argue" that your belief trumps concrete proof :roll:

What I have said is:

Running on electricity is more efficient (otherwise you should not own the vehicle)
The efficiency of ICE is much better on constant highway speeds than in stop and go traffic. (Total efficiency mpg)
It is better to top up the battery on highway by pressing CHARGE for the stop and go traffic ahead if any. (So you don't force series in stop and go traffic)
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now I have a question for you, do you actually practice what you preach? Do you drive in stop and go traffic with depleted battery so you will be constantly in series? Try it for once and you will have your prove.
My belief is valid even for all conventional vehicles with available parallel on all speed ranges. Series makes urban driving inefficiency even worst with additional energy conversion losses. The prove is in all city/highway consumption numbers.

Fjpod,
I don't let the battery to go flat on the hwy. Always keeping 1/4 reserve.
On long trips I'm ruining it down to 1/4 than charging it to 3/4. Rinse and repeat until the final stretch when aiming to arrive at my destination flat.

 

[ThudnBlundr]

So I just left the charge button on full time, traveling at about 72 mph. I began to notice as the battery got up to 75 percent SOC, my instantaneous mpg improved by at least 25 percent... From about 21 mpg on level ground, to 28 to 30 mpg. Additionally, as the battery indicator got closer to 80 or 85 percent full, the ICE would turn off for about one minute.... But the ICE was running 95 percent of the time.

According to some experiments posted on here recently, the battery charges less efficiently above 60%. I thought that CHRG stops at around 80% capacity. That would explain the increase in mpg as the power demand for charging decreases, and why the ICE stops as the battery reaches around 80%. I do find that on long trips, CHRG doesn't actually charge that quickly unless we're going downhill. I did try running it in SAVE on the motorway and flipping it into CHRG when going downhill, changing back to SAVE as it levelled out. It worked, but it was a PITA to keep flipping back and forth. And occasionally I forgot

@kpetrov - I'm not PREACHING anything, unlike you :roll: I have said COUNTLESS time that I DON'T KNOW what the answer is. I'm merely asking a question with an inquiring mind. You say you know the answer without any proof, just "it's always true". I'm afraid I can't be bothered dealing with your unscientific approach any longer because your ignorance is doing my head in. You may count your pig-headedness as a win if that sort of thing floats your boat.

 

[user 3575]

I have kept a Excel spreadsheet recording every journey in details since collect our 2020 model 11 months ago, to date I have tried all different variations over the last 5,000 miles and to be honest I cannot see any real difference.

 

[mellobob]

I have kept a Excel spreadsheet recording every journey in details since collect our 2020 model 11 months ago, to date I have tried all different variations over the last 5,000 miles and to be honest I cannot see any real difference.

I don't have a spreadsheet detailing my experiments ... but, I too have tried different combinations. And, I too can't see any difference The biggest problem in doing any type of comparison is that you need to duplicate the environment you are testing in and that is pretty much impossible (unless you can control the weather and traffic).

 

[user 3575]

I have kept a Excel spreadsheet recording every journey in details since collect our 2020 model 11 months ago, to date I have tried all different variations over the last 5,000 miles and to be honest I cannot see any real difference.

I don't have a spreadsheet detailing my experiments ... but, I too have tried different combinations. And, I too can't see any difference The biggest problem in doing any type of comparison is that you need to duplicate the environment you are testing in and that is pretty much impossible (unless you can control the weather and traffic).

I totally agree there is a big difference between theory and reality.

 

[kpetrov]

According to some experiments posted on here recently, the battery charges less efficiently above 60%. I thought that CHRG stops at around 80% capacity. That would explain the increase in mpg as the power demand for charging decreases, and why the ICE stops as the battery reaches around 80%. I do find that on long trips, CHRG doesn't actually charge that quickly unless we're going downhill. I did try running it in SAVE on the motorway and flipping it into CHRG when going downhill, changing back to SAVE as it levelled out. It worked, but it was a PITA to keep flipping back and forth. And occasionally I forgot

@kpetrov - I'm not PREACHING anything, unlike you :roll: I have said COUNTLESS time that I DON'T KNOW what the answer is. I'm merely asking a question with an inquiring mind. You say you know the answer without any proof, just "it's always true". I'm afraid I can't be bothered dealing with your unscientific approach any longer because your ignorance is doing my head in. You may count your pig-headedness as a win if that sort of thing floats your boat.

I was not talking about CHRG vs. SAVE the difference is really small. Personally I'm using CHRG cause it gives me more control over the SOC, less ICE startups etc..
What I was trying to say is if the ICE will be used anyhow it is better to be done on hwy conditions not in city traffic. Most of the ppl are doing it, computers in regular hybrid vehicles are doing it as well.
That's not ignorance, that are the facts. Bet you are doing it as well. Bet you are trying to avoid using the ICE in city driving conditions and you press SAVE or CHRG on highways. Wonder why not the opposite if it's more efficient? You are the one ignoring the science, claiming it is not specifically written-related to our PHEV.